They wipe the PTS forums, and I want to be able to track some of these changes we have been discussing over there, so I'm recreating a topic here. Some of the tests we wanted to do never happened, due to a shortage of people copied who were interested/capable of providing the relevant data. Once it goes live we can continue these tests with the larger user pool.

The tests so far from the PTS thread:

Georg Zoeller claims that there were underlying math and mechanics changes that make these changes not as bad as they first appear. We were hoping that we could uncover some of these changes through testing. So far we have not.

Before getting into the tests, he confirmed that Medical Probe still costs 3 Ammo. Some of us had hoped that the base cost was reduced to 2 Ammo which would make AP/MP still be 3, and would make healing on a pre-Field Triage low-level Commando easier. This did not happen.

Test: He took off his armor, put it back on, and tossed a Kolto Bomb down in a group of 4 people near him. They were all at full health.

Result: He, the only one not at full health, did not get healed. The 4 in a cluster at full health, did.

Verdict: No smart-healing on KB.

Sithwarrior.com looked at the client files and reported that only the values for Expertise changed. We did some testing to confirm.

Test: We recorded his stats and derived values (ie stat: crit rating, derived value: crit chance), both on Live and PTS, naked and fully geared. We also used his ratings and the current Live formulas from Sithwarrior.com to compute "calculated values" to compare to the "actual values."

Result: The Live calculated and actual matched for all values, as expected.

The PTS values all matched, except for two. His Ranged Crit Chance was short 3%. We suspect that this is a bug and that the Special Munitions skill was not applying correctly despite the tooltip still saying "Ranged and Tech Critical Chance." Tech Critical Chance matched perfectly. The other oddity was the Critical Multiplier. There was a phantom 1% buff that was present both naked and with gear on. It has been decided that this 1% came from Companion Affection, as all of his are maxed out.

We did not compare Expertise at this time.

Verdict: The only two values that appear changed also appear to be bugs. As far as we can tell, there were no changes to the stat curves.

Update: Additional tests seemed to at first show that there were changes to the curves server-side that were not reflected in the client. Additional review has shown that these discrepancies were caused by unaccounted for buffs and a lack of precision in the logs (integers only). Once these were taken into consideration, everything matches what it would on the Live servers and there are no stat changes currently on the PTS except Expertise.

Update: I checked the client files directly and the values for the new Psych Aid skill heal are as follows:

Coefficient: 0.1

standardHealthPercentMin: 0.02

standardHealthPercentMax: 0.08

At level 50, standardHealthPercent = 7085, so the base heal range for this heal is 141.7 to 566.8. You can then add 0.1*(Your Bonus Healing) to see how much it would heal for. As an example, with 450 Bonus Healing this will heal for an average of 399.25. For context, a Hammer Shot cast with the same power heals for 450.

Old: He checked the heal attached to Psych Aid. The tooltip was very small, but that is due to the long-standing tooltip bug. Casting it, it healed for ~380 (We forgot to write it down, but it was in the high 300s). His Bonus Healing is 472.6, meaning that the heal on Psych Aid is weaker than Hammer Shot.

Test: We had him burn all of his Ammo both naked and geared, and tracked the time to get to full Ammo again. We repeated this 10 times per gear setup, for a total of 20 tests. There is some error due to reflexes as he would say "Empty" and I would hit start, and the same at the end. There is also some error introduced by the UI and the lack of distinction between 0 Ammo and 0.9 Ammo.

Results: Geared(5.16% Alacrity) Naked

Average 28.75 28.98

Std Dev 1.04695325163593 0.968159766429683

Verdict: No difference. Given the simple nature of all of the other changes it was unlikely that they would modify a base mechanic, but we thought it was worth testing. It is perhaps worth repeating this test with someone with a much higher Alacrity rating, as 5.16% is quite low (and Lileth has neither of the two alacrity skills).

This one might need a little background. Currently on Live, if you are at 100% and cast an instant ability, it deducts the cost and then triggers the 1.5s cooldown. If you are at 100% and then cast a 1.5s spell, it deducts the cost after the cast finishes, and there is no GCD, you can immediately cast the next ability.

This means that, for a Scoundrel, it takes longer to return to 100 Energy if they cast UWM/SRMP than it does to cast SRMP/UWM. This was never seen on Commandos due to all of our instants being free, but will become an issue with TP.

Test: We timed the regen time after casting 4xTP and after casting AP+3xTP. We repeated both 10 times each.

Results: 4xTP AP+3xTP

Average 8.74 11.51

Std Dev 0.673630297550347 1.34449494854634

Verdict: This mechanic remains unchanged.

Test: I compared all of the coefficients and standardHealthPercent modifiers (the values that determine how much something heals for) between the Live 1.1.5 and PTS 1.2 data files.

Results: No changes except in Kolto Cloud / Recuperative Nanotech. Strangely, KC/RN does not show the 10% buff claimed in the Patch Notes, but is instead only a 3.4% buff.

We compared the gear Lileth had equipped on PTS and Live to see what changed. The following changes are negative if his PTS stat was lower than Live, and positive if it was higher on PTS.

Presence: +30 (Likely from companion affection and Legacy)

Aim: -11

Endurance: +27

Expertise: +96 (note that his gear had none, this was a base change)

Alacrity: -102

Surge: +102

Critical: -107

Power: +90

Note that the stat trade-offs are Alacrity vs Surge and Power vs Crit. As we can see the item budget for Alacrity and Surge didn't change, simply the itemization allocation. What did change was the budget for Power/Crit and for Aim on the armorings. The item budget lost 11 Aim and lost 17 Power/Crit.

Verdict: Item budget took a stealth nerf.

Lileth's guild was copied over with a Seer, Sawbones, and Combat Medic. They are going to have a tank and 2 dps run the same HM with each of the three healers and write up After Action Reports describing how it felt to heal, resource usage, average resource level, stress level, deaths, etc. Tank and DPS will report on anything of note running with each healer and compare how it felt to be healed by each, deaths, necessary cooldown usage, medpac usage, etc. They will also run the same HM FP on Live for comparison.

Logs will be collected from the PTS run, but sadly, of course, cannot be compared with any Live logs.

From the logs we will look at the usage rates of abilities which we can compare to experience from Live.

I'd like to do a comparison of the item budget between 1.1.5 and 1.2, so I'd appreciate it if people could look up and post the relevant stats for their class' Tionese, Columi, and Rakata gear, including ear, implant, weapon, offhand, wrist and bracers.

I already have the Commando Combat Medic stats laying around in a file, so that part is done. It would be helpful if someone would do Sawbones and Seer for me.

I am reserving this post for a comparison of sustained and burst HPS once 1.2 goes Live.

Details of that test:

Go to the Tattoine Open PvP area.

Have your pets attack each other.

Start your log and do your max sustained healing rotation for ~5 minutes.

Repeat with a "max burst rotation" for as long as it takes to burnout.

"Max Burst" should be done with all cooldowns available. Scoundrel should start with full UH stacks, Commando should start with 30 CSC stacks. Heal as hard as you can, blowing all cooldowns, until you are completely out of resources. Assume that there is no time for a weak HS or DS cast from Commando/Scoundrel. It is Sage's call if he wants to use NS on proc, but if so he doesn't have the extra spare GCD to heal himself or his pretend target dies. Of course, I'm not even sure if HT is in Sage burst rotation anyway. Scoundrel should do burst twice, once with heavy Kolto Pack usage, once without.

For "Max Sustained", start as you would any boss fight.

Commando:

All cooldowns available, 30 stacks of CSC, etc. Everyone should heal as hard as they can without crippling their regen, which includes bursting down when Recharge Cells / Coolhead is available (during SCC for max effect for Commando, of course). For this test, I'd like it if you could do it twice, once keeping TP on the pet at all times, once only pre-casting it at the start but never refreshing.

Scoundrel:

For his sustained rotation, see if he can do it twice. Once using Emergency Medpac for all of his UH consumption, and another where he uses Kolto Pack whenever he hits 3 UH and can afford it Energy-wise, even if it means he has to slip in a clipped Diagnostic Scan. Use his best judgment as an experienced Scoundrel to try and optimize that.

Sage:

All cooldowns available at start. No variants I can think of.

Every fight would be a separate log. Commando: 1 burst, 2 sustained. Scoundrel: 2 burst, 2 sustained. Sage: 1 burst, 1 sustained.

Should take about 15 minutes total for the Scoundrel, slightly less for the others.

Please provide separate logs for each rotation, with a list of which file is which rotation/character. Please also provide your full stats and the item level of your gear.

Here's my contribution, in my own typical style...

Welcome to GeorgZoeller's quote corner!

Most of these quotes either allude to changes, or quantify the ones that have been discovered (or are in the patch notes)... yet hardly qualify as "underlying changes" that would cast the healer nerfs in any better light.

Note that I fully expect the links to break once the PTS forum is "archived", but the titles should give an idea of the context, and I will include quotes to which GZ is replying when available/necessary.

These quotes are preserved in their entirety. Particularly relevant parts of larger quotes are emphasized with bold and underline formatting.

Spoiler tags are used for ease of use for longer or more tangentially relevant quotes.

Quotes directly related to this discussion (direct reference to supposed underlying changes) will be excluded from spoiler tags, unless otherwise noted.

Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes": 03.23.2012 , 07:43 PM

Out of curiosity, isn't the reason most of these changes are being implemented is to make the game more challenging? It would seem that ever since launch the "majority" of players have been screaming that the game is WAY too easy. Given that assumption, shouldn't it be much harder now for a top-end guild with BiS gear to clear a NM Ops unless they change their method of approach?

The reason for some of the changes is in fact to increase the challenge level of top end content by tightening class balance. Healing through top end content was, as a fact, not tightly balanced enough in the past and a prime contributor to the fact that our top end difficulty content was just not providing the challenge level people expected.

 

This encapsulates both the medpac change (without being able to make safe assumption about the availability of optional healing, it is impossible to strike a reliable balance that doesn't require people to shell out hundreds of thousands of credits for item based healing) as well as the class changes.

 

The other major reason is class to class and role to role balance.

(Yes, he replied to this thread's original posting on the PTS forum without answering or addressing the topic at all.)

Bounty Hunter Nerf pretty big.: 03.17.2012 , 12:39 AM

Let me also say that there's significant under the hood changes to stats, diminishing returns, itemization stat budget, a new tier of gear with different stats and more diverse mods, changes to PvE and PvP math, etc.

 

That means that it is not possible to assess impact of class changes in regards to power gain or loss from the patch notes alone, people will have to go on PTS and actually play to get the full picture.

 

Which we highly encourage you to do!

Sage Seer Tree Changes Initial Thoughts: 03.17.2012 , 06:18 PM

Thank you for actually testing things in the game before posting. It's feedback from people like you we are interested in.

 

Games are not balanced on paper and actual gameplay impact of changes is not easily determined from patch notes, especially when so much of the surrounding game logic has been modified.

 

It is impossible to capture every element of change in patch notes, and it's even more impossible to prevent people from reacting to patch notes without taking the time to actually test.

 

We will be monitoring the game data coming from PTS, as well as guild feedback and constructive feedback based on gameplay on PTS and make adjustments and changes for the PTS period of the patch and beyond where necessary.

1.2 Sorc Nerfs:

HM Lost Island - overtuned? Your thoughts:

Medpacks... are you kidding me?!?!!?!?:

The definitive word on end game itemization in 1.2:

1.2 - New Rakata Itemization:

Note: The following quote was superseded by Georg Zoeller's "The definitive word on end game itemization in 1.2" thread, and refers to design that has since changed, as confirmed by quotes from that thread. Refer to the quote above for information on the current itemization design.

Curses! Seems some of the other devs are trying to steal GZ's thunder. But turning GZ's quote corner into a generic dev team quote corner just wouldn't be the same, so I'll stick non-GZ quotes here:

1.2 Sniper DPS broken?:

Although referencing DPS and weapon damage, the following quotes by APeckenpaugh seem to imply that certain "under-the-hood" changes are not in the 1.2 build, but are slated to be released in a 1.2.x build.

-----------------------------------------

Wow that's a big wall'o'quotes.

Anyways, I figured we should probably save the quotes that brought about this discussion in the first place.

Wow that's a big wall'o'quotes.

 

Anyways, I figured we should probably save the quotes that brought about this discussion in the first place.

Certainly relevant. Thanks for compiling those, with the relevant post he was replying to for context.

Wow that's a big wall'o'quotes.

 

Anyways, I figured we should probably save the quotes that brought about this discussion in the first place.

Yes, and thank you for posting them it'll be nice to have them here for reference.

... they lost my game sub with 1.2 going Live as is...

Not mine yet, but I'm not pleased with the notes and lack of "underlying changes". I do not see my CM being as fun to play as before, if the spec is as boring as Gunnery I'll either play an alt or leave.

Here's my contribution, in my own typical style...

 

Welcome to GeorgZoeller's quote corner!

 

Most of these quotes either allude to changes, or quantify the ones that have been discovered (or are in the patch notes)... yet hardly qualify as "underlying changes" that would cast the healer nerfs in any better light.

 

Note that I fully expect the links to break once the PTS forum is "archived", but the titles should give an idea of the context, and I will include quotes to which GZ is replying when available/necessary.

 

Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes":

 

(Yes, he replied to this thread's original posting on the PTS forum without answering or addressing the topic at all.)

 

Bounty Hunter Nerf pretty big.:

 

 

Sage Seer Tree Changes Initial Thoughts:

 

 

1.2 Sorc Nerfs:

 

 

 

HM Lost Island - overtuned? Your thoughts:

 

 

 

 

Medpacks... are you kidding me?!?!!?!? :

 

 

 

 

 

1.2 - New Rakata Itemization :

Why bother quoting the liar? You cannot believe what he says, only what he does. He of course knows best, and players need to sit down and take their medicine. This attitude has work so well for every other MMO that has adopted it in the past after all.

Still looking for those underlying changes.... oh wait he did let it slip... ...lying...

Why bother quoting the liar? You cannot believe what he says, only what he does. He of course knows best, and players need to sit down and take their medicine. This attitude has work so well for every other MMO that has adopted it in the past after all.

 

Still looking for those underlying changes.... oh wait he did let it slip... ...lying...

Because, if someone doesn't, they all disappear into the netherworld of PTS forum archives.

When it comes to deciding whether or not someone is a liar, some people prefer to have conclusive evidence to back it up.

Not to mention having copies of the original quotes functions as a bit of a safeguard against someone down the line saying we misunderstood something.

Because, if someone doesn't, they all disappear into the netherworld of PTS forum archives.

 

When it comes to deciding whether or not someone is a liar, some people prefer to have conclusive evidence to back it up.

Fair enough. It is a pity that Bioware has someone so deaf to the community he "serves". Guess he only works for the hardcore player base, and is more than willing to sink the game.

In my opinion, this is not what makes a good employee. Also Bioware not having contact information for the game management to express dissatisfaction to is the reason why this person can get away with misleading the player base with immunity.

Too bad you don't have the dates the underlying changes post was the 18th, and the healing needed a nerf was the 23rd as I recall..... Didn't the game launch on the 20th meaning resubs are on the 20th/21st........ Can't be, no he is totally ethical.

subbed.

as a general complaint, BW:Austin has shown an incredible lack of regard for the collective and cumulative experience of gamers that have been playing these games longer than the devs have been making them.

What follows is not a "WOW is better comment," but I want to point out that Blizzard took a page from the extensive creativity and desire to improve game found within the gaming communities that spawned back in the days of Quake and Half Life, and as such, were able to tap into the nearly infinite potential of community members to improve upon, and thereby strengthen both the game, and the community. Blizzard in turn was able to GROSSELY capitalize upon that collective community base.

In general, however, MMO developers (BW:Austin in particular) have been regressively pulling away from the communities that support them. Gone are the days of community populated support programs, gone are the days of community moderation, and gone are the days of direct community involvement.

SWTOR has shown that developers like BW are attempting to turn massively MULTIPLAYER online games into closed single player systems with online interaction akin to first person shooters: you play a game, then you go online for some pvp fun. SWTOR is a single player game with warzones and dungeons.

This is not what MMOs are supposed to be about.

I eagerly look forward to following this thread and all the other threads of its kind for as long as they exist on the forums.

I have saved this post in a word document in case it gets deleted. I recommend from now on that we all do this.

Interesting...

Might have found a nugget of treasure in another dev's quotes. I snipped some out for this reply, but the entire quotes are posted in spoiler tags under my 2nd post.

I decided to edit them into that 2nd post (right below my first quote post) for a couple reasons, namely to distinguish between comments made by the Principal Lead Combat Designer (GZ) and any other developer.

I believe there are a couple of culprits contributing to the subpar DPS being reported in this thread.

 

<Target dummies don't dodge = false readings of dps argument snipped>

 

Additionally, we've adjusted some of our assumptions regarding how weapon damage interacts with enemy chances to dodge and deflect. In an as-of-yet-undetermined patch after 1.2, you'll see a small but noticeable damage increase to a few key attacks for Snipers and Gunslingers.

 

<Metrics say we all good snipped>

I should have separated my thoughts more clearly. Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion.

 

<Mo dummies, mo snipped>

 

For those testing their DPS in the new Ops, the simple response is that our tests show higher numbers. We aren't seeing a shortage in Sniper/Gunslinger DPS. To the contrary, we're seeing them hit our targets.

 

Lastly, in doing these tests, we exposed an issue in how we value weapon damage and defense, the result of which would increase weapon damage globally by a very small amount. When we change our assumptions, we want to apply the result to the live game to keep the many, many varieties of character builds all playing "with the same rules," with an eye on not upsetting balance too much. To put this into words relevant to this thread, Snipers and Gunslingers will see a small increase to weapon damage in a patch some undetermined time after 1.2, which in additional tests, caused them to hit and sometimes exceed our targets by a margin we're perfectly comfortable with.

This tells me at least some underlying changes are coming in 1.2.x, though this is specifically in reference to DPS...

Unless other members of the dev team are starting to tow the company line.

But this begs the question, of course, why the hell would they make and introduce class balance changes based around game mechanics changes that don't even have a determined release version, much less date?

Yeah, not sure what to make of those statements.

I actually found this section of the post you linked quite interesting:

Lastly, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Snipers and Gunslingers are a difficult class to play. As "pure DPS" classes (like the Marauder and Sentinel), Snipers and Gunslingers require a good deal of skill to wield properly, and finding and executing a proper rotation is key to ideal resource management and damage output.

I think this reflects the DPS-centric view of the Devs. I think most players consider pure-DPS to be the simplest role, yet the Devs consider it the most difficult. Obviously there is the additional difficulty when soloing of "kill-or-be-killed" in any fight, but with tank and healer pets that doesn't apply in this game as much as in others. In raids, I think "finding and executing a proper rotation" is just about the easiest task, so much so that many tanks and healers choose their role specifically to do something more interesting than perfectly execute a rotation.

In fact, I suppose if the Devs consider perfectly executing a rotation to be the epitome of difficulty and skill, that explains the way they have changed the healers to be simpler and more rotation focused.

And so the purge begins...

Let us sit here and hope death passes us by.

These quotes are preserved in their entirety.

Good thing, because most, if not all, of those threads have been erased from the PTS forum.

Edit : well that was the case a few hours ago, now some seem to be back... Go figure...