I am re-posting this here with some tweaks, because too many people (and I suspect, many who haven't ACTUALLY been on PTS) are flouncing about, shaking their fists at the sky, and breaking out into the gamer version of "when I was your age!" lectures...

What BioWare is apparently attempting to do HAS potential, but really it is going to depend 100% on the execution, and I would understand people's lack of faith in BioWare for that.

But there seems to be a real lack of understanding of what's going on, which is in large part because BioWare is horrible at communication, as they always have been.

However, ignoring what BioWare said regarding PTS, and using what was said in the live stream combined with what we are seeing at test center, this is what I think they are trying to do, using tech as an example:

Bounty Hunter/Trooper/Agent/Smuggler:

• Mercenary
  
  • Bodyguard
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Arsenal

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Innovative Ordinance

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

• Powertech
  
  • Shield Tech
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Advanced Prototype

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Pyrotech

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Sniper

  • Marksmanship
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Engineering

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Virulence

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Operative

  • Medicine
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Concealment

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Lethality

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Commando

  • Combat Medic
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Gunnery

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Assault Specialist

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Vanguard

  • Shield Specialist
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Tactics

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Plasmatech

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Gunslinger

  • Sharpshooter
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Saboteur

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Dirty Fighting

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

  [*]Scoundrel

  • Sawbones
    
    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Scrapper

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

    [*]Ruffian

    • Loadout A
      
    • Loadout B

So typically, each of those skill trees (now loadouts) would have 2 unique abilities in the existing skill tree system.

What they NEED to do, is instead keep all those abilities in those loadouts, but then take the existing abilities that each advanced class gets, and I would go even as far as the primary class as well, and divide ALL those skills among the different loadouts. There certainly IS enough abilities to do that. Leave 3-4 abilities that you keep with the primary class, preferably ones that do NOT feed into tacticals or set bonuses.

And now because all the tech classes can pick among the advanced classes, there is ZERO need to MIRROR classes any more (like how BH Arsenal and Commando Gunnery mirror each other, or Smuggler Gunslinger and Agent Sniper mirror). As such, as the abilities are divided up, thought should go into which abilities go where, and make each and every load out/skill tree FEEL different.

This also means that abilities will need to be adjusted - each loadout only getting a few abilities, and perhaps a certain grouping that achieves what I mentioned above in making it feel like a unique playstyle is comprised of abilities that originally were all complimentary, minor abilities that were never meant to be the main source of whatever the class was trying to do (heal, dps, tank, crowd control, etc). In that case, better to keep those abilities together, and buff them to be on par with other groupings, rather than say opt for a much more generic loadout by having big time abilities cross over multiple loadouts - if you are going to do that, then what the hell is the point of all the work for loadouts anyway?

That's the main issue with what's going on with PTS right now - you STILL have too many abilities as a guardian, regardless of loadout, and even what you get as a result of the loadout right now specific to that loadout hasn't been balanced.

So right now PTS Guardian feels more like a "class nerf" with the removal of a small handful of abilities, rather than really leaning into the loadout idea and making it feel like it is REALLY worth it.

But the SHELL of the system to achieve what I mentioned how it should go IS there. It all depends really on how much work the developers want to put into making each loadout feel unique, and also rebalancing each loadout with the game properly, and finally being up front with the player base what each loadout play style is SUPPOSED to achieve.

Make no mistake - if they only are looking to make the advanced class feel different, then there is ZERO reason for loadouts - I can tell you right now that the 3 different Jedi Guardian classes on PTS all felt roughly the same - it really didn't matter much what you picked - it all felt too similar to what we already have minus a few abilities.

So I am curious just how well BioWare handles this. There is a unique opportunity to take all the abilities already in the game and give a really deep, diverse loadout system (even with each loadout having 1/3 of the abilities of what we have now), or if they are just going to pay lip service to it and end up half-assing it like only BioWare can do (don't get me started on the half-assed Manaan Stronghold....)

We will see what happens. They certainly got time to do this right.

In the meantime, yes, this will piss off people who have their rotations and tool bars set just perfect. Even though ability glut has consistently been the #1 barrier for entry to the game per new player polls for YEARS.

Want to know what's ironic about that?

The same people telling you that new players should just learn to play the game are saying that because.... if the game changes, then THEY have to learn to play the game! Hypocritical, isn't it?

This is incorrect.

The A/B paths are only for this iteration of PTS. There will be a choice of three (A/B/C) paths in the later iterations once the UI is available.

Edit to add:

Furthermore, you can choose a path (A/B/C) at each tier of the tree, so you can mix and match instead of just going down paths that are predefined.

- you STILL have too many abilities as a guardian,

I & many others respectfully disagree with your premise.

- I can tell you right now that the 3 different Jedi Guardian classes on PTS all felt roughly the same - it really didn't matter much what you picked - it all felt too similar to what we already have minus a few abilities.

Now that i can agree with.

. There is a unique opportunity to take all the abilities already in the game and give a really deep, diverse loadout system

I respectfully disagree with your OPINION.

In my opinion, 'loadouts' are boring and limiting, when compared to 'skill trees' and more horizontal progression systems, and therefore wouldn't feel very "deep" . (ESO certainly doesn't feel very deep--combat wise--with 2 loadouts swap)

Even though ability glut has consistently been the #1 barrier for entry to the game per new player polls for YEARS.

Got any links to those umm ever so accurate "polls" ?

p.s. Your forum sig is misleading & moot --> https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=992143

p.s. Your forum sig is misleading & moot --> https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=992143

Got 'em!

Got 'em!

Got 'em!

Yes - I've been away for 2 years and only resubbed to try PTS because of the loadout announcement. You got me!

That yall need to celebrate "winning" on technicalities says all there is about you...

This is incorrect.

 

The A/B paths are only for this iteration of PTS. There will be a choice of three (A/B/C) paths in the later iterations once the UI is available.

 

Edit to add:

Furthermore, you can choose a path (A/B/C) at each tier of the tree, so you can mix and match instead of just going down paths that are predefined.

That does indeed make some things more interesting, but if you do mix and match, how does the concept of loadouts work? Seems to me there needs to be some sort of foundation.

If you are right, that does indeed make my take on it inaccurate - however, it is another way to go certainly.

But then again, it also is something that makes what happened on PTS really muddy the waters even further.

Honestly though, it just sounds just like the advanced class trees, except you get to pick active abilities instead of passive ones with utility points.

It doesn't solve the issue of the ability glut barrier however - I do wonder if they are going to tackle that. Based on PTS, I don't think they will, but based on PTS, who the hell knows what they are doing right now? It really was poorly communicated.

 

That yall need to celebrate "winning" on technicalities says all there is about you...

Who's "celebrating" lol ?

We were just giving ya some guff is all, Zion

Chill dude.

Don't taint a pretty robust debate happening these past few days on these PTS forums with your being a bit touchy all of a sudden.

See ya in the next thread!

Who's "celebrating" lol ?

 

We were just giving ya some guff is all, Zion

 

Chill dude.

 

Don't taint a pretty robust debate happening these past few days on these PTS forums with your being a bit touchy all of a sudden.

 

See ya in the next thread!

Cute, but see Fumbles as how someone ACTUALLY debates.

He came at me with real data.

He didn't come at me with emotion, passive-aggressiveness, flouncing, or trying to win a forum pissing contest.

Thus, He thus changed my mind.

You might want to learn something from him.

That does indeed make some things more interesting, but if you do mix and match, how does the concept of loadouts work? Seems to me there needs to be some sort of foundation.

Loadouts are "merely" slots you save your choosen specs into. They are like the appearance tabs on your character just for specs. You equip gear, set up your quickbar, pick your "utilities"/passives the way you like and stamp it into slot #1. Then you switch gear, quickbar setups and take different passives/utilities and stamp it into slot #2.

Now you can easily switch between both of these with the click of a button. No more manually clicking reset and re-assigning utility every time you switch specs, no more manually clicking on gear in the inventory to switch on the spot, and best of all? No more having to keep screenshots of your ability bars because they don't save their setup.

Loadouts are just save slots for gear/spec/utility/combat style configurations.

My Definitive PTS post is better than your Definitive PTS Post!

Good laugh

I am re-posting this here with some tweaks, because too many people (and I suspect, many who haven't ACTUALLY been on PTS) are flouncing about, shaking their fists at the sky, and breaking out into the gamer version of "when I was your age!" lectures...

 

What BioWare is apparently attempting to do HAS potential, but really it is going to depend 100% on the execution, and I would understand people's lack of faith in BioWare for that.

Ah so anyone who doesn't agree with you and tries to give feedback based on our experience is just giving a "when I was your age" lecture, good to know. I would agree there is potential to do good based on execution, but we're not seeing good execution. We're seeing the exact opposite of that. We're seeing them steal half of our toolkit, divide it up among "new and exciting" loadouts and then giving them back to us. That is not fun, new, or unique. It's a straight up nerf.

If we have 10 abilities in our toolkit as a hypothetical and come to us saying "okay you can keep those same 10 abilities you have since launch, or you can use this loadout of 10 new abilities over here. Regardless of which kit you pick, you'll also get to choose from these all new passives to further enhance your kit over here" That is an actual choice at that point. They're presenting you with 2 complete and functional toolkits to pick from, and enhancers to go with them. That is actual choice.

But there seems to be a real lack of understanding of what's going on, which is in large part because BioWare is horrible at communication, as they always have been.

 

However, ignoring what BioWare said regarding PTS, and using what was said in the live stream combined with what we are seeing at test center, this is what I think they are trying to do, using tech as an example:

Quite a few game companies are horrible with communication so that one I will give you. I highlighted 2 bits in bold here as they are extremely telling. I'm a firm believer in the saying that actions speak louder than words. Anybody can talk a good game and make all kinds of promises to do good things. However it's nothing but empty words if there is no action behind it. Or if they say they're going to do something, yet go out and do the exact opposite, those actions speak louder than the words. Those actions are what matter.

Your problem in this instance is the two highlighted sections. First you're straight up ignoring what they said they were going to do. As another user pointed out, it's not going to be strictly loadouts A and B, but there will be additional loadouts. It also doesn't matter what you THINK they're doing, it matters what they actually do. To slightly borrow from Adam Savage's famous Mythbuster quote, you're rejecting reality and trying to substitute your own. Furthermore since you're ignoring what they've said in favor of what YOU THINK they're going to do, you're theorizing, and also missed points that directly rebut large portions of what you're saying. We can create fun theories all day long, but what matters is what they actually do.

So typically, each of those skill trees (now loadouts) would have 2 unique abilities in the existing skill tree system.

What they NEED to do, is instead keep all those abilities in those loadouts, but then take the existing abilities that each advanced class gets, and I would go even as far as the primary class as well, and divide ALL those skills among the different loadouts. There certainly IS enough abilities to do that. Leave 3-4 abilities that you keep with the primary class, preferably ones that do NOT feed into tacticals or set bonuses.

 

And now because all the tech classes can pick among the advanced classes, there is ZERO need to MIRROR classes any more (like how BH Arsenal and Commando Gunnery mirror each other, or Smuggler Gunslinger and Agent Sniper mirror). As such, as the abilities are divided up, thought should go into which abilities go where, and make each and every load out/skill tree FEEL different.

Division doesn't add anything new, it simply separates what was already there into many smaller sections, leaving less and less substance with each division. You're not adding anything new, nor are you adding anything of value by dividing the abilities up. All you're doing is stealing abilities from people, and offering to give them back in a "choice" system. Overall you're giving people LESS content and pretending to have done them a favor. That is not fun and that is not new. That's lazy development and trying to fix something that isn't broke just so you can try to claim something is "new" when it's not.

What people have tried to tell you this entire time is that the classes already feel unique and that they already have their own unique toolkits. If one chooses a Sage/Sorc, you will have certain abilities that you get just for being a Sage/Sorc, yet you get additional abilities when you choose what kind of Sage/Sorc you want to be. Similar to going into medicine to be a doctor, then choosing to further specialize into being something like a cardiologist. There are certain bits every doctor will know, and certain bits only specialists will know. If the goal is to give a unique experience, this already exists with each of the classes. So this again is wasting resources for no valid reason.

Also you're thinking way too hard about what mirroring actually is. If you take a Defense Guardian and an Immortal Juggernaut, they're both the exact same thing in terms of function. Literally all you've done is copy-pasted the ability set, then given them different names and visuals. It's the same concept as real life weapons such as the Ruger Mini 14 and the AR-15. Both weapons can fire .223 or 5.56, the only difference is the cosmetic look of the weapon. The core components are exactly the same.

This also means that abilities will need to be adjusted - each loadout only getting a few abilities, and perhaps a certain grouping that achieves what I mentioned above in making it feel like a unique playstyle is comprised of abilities that originally were all complimentary, minor abilities that were never meant to be the main source of whatever the class was trying to do (heal, dps, tank, crowd control, etc). In that case, better to keep those abilities together, and buff them to be on par with other groupings, rather than say opt for a much more generic loadout by having big time abilities cross over multiple loadouts - if you are going to do that, then what the hell is the point of all the work for loadouts anyway?

There's already a unique playstyle for each class, and has been since launch, you just don't like it apparently. By the logic you're using here, they may as well reduce the game to 3 buttons. An attack, a defensive, and some sort of heal and call it day. Afterall anything more than that would just be considered ability bloat by your logic. For sake of keeping the numbers simple, let's assume a class has 12 abilities. Those abilities are unique to what that class does and who they are. You can split those abilities into 2 loadouts of 6 powers each, or 3 loadouts of 4 powers each, but you're not adding anything new. You're not creating any uniqueness, nor are you creating new uniqueness. All you're doing is gimping the uniqueness that was already there by limiting it on a whim.

That's the main issue with what's going on with PTS right now - you STILL have too many abilities as a guardian, regardless of loadout, and even what you get as a result of the loadout right now specific to that loadout hasn't been balanced.

That's purely your opinion and nothing else. Classes and abilities are already balanced as is, the problem is you just don't like the balance for whatever reason. As for "too many abilities" who aside from yourself and 2 others are saying this? Who are these people you keep bringing up that are having so much trouble learning their abilities? You keep bringing up this bogus argument yet you have NEVER told us who these people are so we can help them learn their abilities. Can these people be helped by creating better tooltips? Do they need to see a guide explaining some of the basics of the class? Or do they prefer classes with less abilities and simply picked a class that's the wrong flavor for them? You keep mentioning these people but never tell us who they are. You just harp on "it's tough for new people" Being unable to master the game in a day doesn't make it a bad game, it simply means you need practice, however it seems everyone wants their instant gratification now these days.

The other thing you've never done is quantified how many abilities you consider to be too many, or just right. You've never given anything concrete we can work with. Are we talking 5 abilities, are we talking 7? What about 9, or 10? If you're going to tell us that Guardians have too many abilities, certainly you can tell us what isn't too many? If you can't quantify what is the right amount, you can't logically claim there are too many abilities.

On this point, people come to this game and games like it because of the depth of the classes and their uniqueness with many having left other games because they dumbed it down. But of course you don't seem to care about that.

So right now PTS Guardian feels more like a "class nerf" with the removal of a small handful of abilities, rather than really leaning into the loadout idea and making it feel like it is REALLY worth it.

That's because it is a nerf by stealing more than half of our toolkits. This isn't just a "handful of powers" but many abilities the classes have had since launch.

But the SHELL of the system to achieve what I mentioned how it should go IS there. It all depends really on how much work the developers want to put into making each loadout feel unique, and also rebalancing each loadout with the game properly, and finally being up front with the player base what each loadout play style is SUPPOSED to achieve.

Classes are already unique without the need for this foolishness. You already have different styles with the different classes as is. Again you're not adding anything new with this line of logic, all you're doing is shifting where the abilities come from, and drastically reducing the amount of them. Nothing new is added, but plenty is stolen from the player.

Make no mistake - if they only are looking to make the advanced class feel different, then there is ZERO reason for loadouts - I can tell you right now that the 3 different Jedi Guardian classes on PTS all felt roughly the same - it really didn't matter much what you picked - it all felt too similar to what we already have minus a few abilities.

If your concern is uniqueness as you seem to want, what's the point of doing something that doesn't grant that uniqueness, but in fact destroys the uniqueness that's already there? If the goal is uniqueness, and by your own admission the 3 "classes" all felt the same, what's the point in doing it? You say there are too many abilities, yet turn around and complain that the 3 "classes" feel the same and they don't feel unique. Do you want unique or not?

So I am curious just how well BioWare handles this. There is a unique opportunity to take all the abilities already in the game and give a really deep, diverse loadout system (even with each loadout having 1/3 of the abilities of what we have now), or if they are just going to pay lip service to it and end up half-assing it like only BioWare can do (don't get me started on the half-assed Manaan Stronghold....)

 

We will see what happens. They certainly got time to do this right.

That statement in bold doesn't mean what you think it does. You can't have a deep dive in only 6 inches of water. You also can't have a diverse toolkit, I'm sorry "loadout", without a large enough collection of abilities behind it. You're not going to get a diverse loadout by simply dividing what's already there. Again division does not add anything, it subtracts from what's already there.

In the meantime, yes, this will piss off people who have their rotations and tool bars set just perfect. Even though ability glut has consistently been the #1 barrier for entry to the game per new player polls for YEARS.

 

Want to know what's ironic about that?

 

The same people telling you that new players should just learn to play the game are saying that because.... if the game changes, then THEY have to learn to play the game! Hypocritical, isn't it?

According to what numbers? So far all we've seen is your opinion and nothing else. You having an opinion doesn't make it right or automatically cement it as established fact. It's purely your opinion and nothing more.

You've also made this claim several times but still refuse to answer the important question. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE SAYING THERE ARE TOO MANY POWERS? Who are these people having these issues? What class are they playing? Did they skip straight to 70 and unlock all of their powers at once, or did they level up the normal way? If we don't know who these people are, what they're doing, or where they are, we can't help them. If these people don't ask for help, there is nothing we can do for any of them.

And by the force, get it through your head, this is NOT, I repeat is NOT, and once more for the folks in the back, IS NOT about folks who don't want to learn a new rotation. It's about people not wanting half of their toolkits stolen from and told it's something new.

What you fail to see in all of this is that you can't make people play the way you want them to play. In trying to force people to play a certain way, all it's going to do is make them quit. If you want people to play differently, you need to give them a valid reason to do it. You want them to use new powers, give them powers worth considering. When I was designing maps and levels in TimeSplitters Future Perfect, I liked to see people leave their bases and fight in the middle of the map in giant free-for-all scraps. I quickly learned I couldn't simply force people to the center of the map, I as the developer of the map had to give them a reason to go there. If I as the developer couldn't give them that reason, then I couldn't expect them to have a reason either. To get them to fight in the middle of the map, I would create small spots with extra cover, along with sprinkling extra med packs, armor, and the more potent weapon spawns, and it worked.

Lastly, the only hypocrisy here is your own. you make statements such as "The same people telling you that new players should just learn to play the game are saying that because.... if the game changes, then THEY have to learn to play the game!" yet at the same time, you're one of the very people trying to dictate t the rest of the community that they shouldn't be allowed to use certain abilities, or should have their toolkits chopped up because YOU have decided YOU don't like it. Pot, meet kettle. You talk about others trying to tell other people to play the game, yet you're doing it yourself and trying to pretend you're not. That's the real hypocrisy here.

I am re-posting this here with some tweaks, because too many people (and I suspect, many who haven't ACTUALLY been on PTS) are flouncing about, shaking their fists at the sky, and breaking out into the gamer version of "when I was your age!" lectures...

 

 

In the meantime, yes, this will piss off people who have their rotations and tool bars set just perfect. Even though ability glut has consistently been the #1 barrier for entry to the game per new player polls for YEARS.

 

Want to know what's ironic about that?

 

The same people telling you that new players should just learn to play the game are saying that because.... if the game changes, then THEY have to learn to play the game! Hypocritical, isn't it?

I fully disagree with this. The more abilities we have - the more interest and more time it takes to learn and play different classes. Which data you used to make a conclusion that # 1 barrier for entry to the game is ability quantity? I didn't see much threads from new players crying about this, instead i saw new players concerned with huge credit inflation, confusion with story content which goes after classic story and lack of participation for certain content (e.g. shroud's quest line). Dumbing classes and ability pruning will scare players out because the more abilities we have - the more ways of playing different content we have. For instance, when i play story content on my lightning sorc i often use chain lightning even though it's not a part of lightning sorcs rotation. When i play pvp iam not using chain lightning because it's madness spec ability. You see how good having this useless ability for me? I can choose to use it or not to use by myself, and where to use it. Now devs think they can choose it for me by dividing ability sets and make me choose between reflect or mad dash while fully taking force clarity away. This is truly dumb because having all possible abilities allows us to choose what we want and what we need while running different types of content. But devs decided to make our choices for us, and just divided abilities AS THEY WANT, thinking that they know better what we want or need. This won't be accepted by players, and personally iam going to leave the game and go play wow if they butcher existing classes limiting our ability choices

but see Fumbles as how someone ACTUALLY debates.

Or i can see my own post....

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956596#post9956596

 

In the meantime, here's another theory (as a contrary argument to the latest OPINION that supposedly "ability glut = gatekeeping new players" ) :

 

Could it be that most new players have access to ridiculous Cartel Market level-to-max-in-one-click item$ , completely bypassing not only the entire STORYLINE (aka the very 'pillar' this game was originally sold & founded upon) but also bypassing any sense of gradual learn-each-new-skill/spec-along-the-way-toward-max-level process?

...which you chose to ignore in favor of repeating over-generalized phrases like "ability glut is real!" in multiple threads over & over, whilst calling people "stupid" for their just as valid as yours opinions.

The irony of course being that you haven't even been playing SWTOR for nearly 2 years.

He came at me with real data.

 

Thus, He thus changed my mind.

No , he corrected your assumptions & misinformation with facts. And then you scurried to edit your posts.

I doubt your mind/agenda will ever be changed, but that's ok since ultimately the only minds that matter are the ones at BioWare.

You might want to learn something from him.

Don't you worry, we're all learning plenty---> https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=995187

The real question is: What has BioWare learned from all their 'metrics' over the past 5 days?

Anyways, good luck to you with the next round of PTS phase.

Good laugh

Thank you - glad you get that it was just humor.

Or i can see my own post....

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9956596#post9956596

 

 

...which you chose to ignore in favor of repeating over-generalized phrases like "ability glut is real!" in multiple threads over & over, whilst calling people "stupid" for their just as valid as yours opinions.

 

The irony of course being that you haven't even been playing SWTOR for nearly 2 years.

 

 

 

No , he corrected your assumptions & misinformation with facts. And then you scurried to edit your posts.

 

I doubt your mind/agenda will ever be changed, but that's ok since ultimately the only minds that matter are the ones at BioWare.

 

 

 

Don't you worry, we're all learning plenty---> https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=995187

 

The real question is: What has BioWare learned from all their 'metrics' over the past 5 days?

 

Anyways, good luck to you with the next round of PTS phase.

Good luck trolling your next victim. It won't be me anymore. /ignore