So typically, each of those skill trees (now loadouts) would have 2 unique abilities in the existing skill tree system. What they NEED to do, is instead keep all those abilities in those loadouts, but then take the existing abilities that each advanced class gets, and I would go even as far as the primary class as well, and divide ALL those skills among the different loadouts....

 

...Make no mistake - if they only are looking to make the advanced class feel different, then there is ZERO reason for loadouts - I can tell you right now that the 3 different Jedi Guardian classes on PTS all felt roughly the same - it really didn't matter much what you picked - it all felt too similar to what we already have minus a few abilities.

I shortened your post for convenience sake, so excuse me for just quoting one passage. I used this specific passage because it said "reason for loadouts."

I think you're making a conceptual mistake here. The final system will not have pre-defined loadouts. You won't go to a trainer and see: "I want to pick loadout A or loadout B" with a set of pre-determined passives and abilities. Bioware even says so in the official PTR post:

For this PTS phase, you will only be able to choose static builds we have chosen for you. Future phases will allow you to more freely choose various abilities and passives as you level.

Loadouts will be something you create for your characters. They will be, essentially, appearance tabs for quickbars, gear configurations, combat styles and these new utilities/masteries. So what this final system will look like in execution is this:

Guardian

• Loadout #1 - Your AoE DPS loadout
  
  
• Loadout #2 - Your Tank Loadout
  
  
• Loadout #3 - Your PvP Tank loadout
  
  
• Loadout #4 - your single target burst loadout
  
  

Sentinel

• Loadout #1 - Your Focus PvP loadout
  
  
• Loadout #2 - your Combat PvP loadout
  
  
• Loadout #3 - Your Combat PvE loadout
  
  

Sage

• Loadout #1 - Your Ops healing loadout
  
  
• Loadout #2 - your PvP healing loadout
  
  
• Loadout #3 - Your Arena DPS loadout
  
  

Shadow

• Loadout #1 - Your Tank loadout
  
  
• Loadout #2 - Your DPS loadout
  
  

All of these you created yourself and saved for easy access. Loadouts aren't skill trees as much as they are slots to save your ability configurations, gear and quickbar hotkeys in. Within those loadouts, you will have free customization of passives. Whereas Jedi Sentinels and Jedi Guardians currently share a good amount of utility choices, these passives might be very different between the two afterwards. They might also be different depending on your spec as a Guardian. There's information on Reddit that I cannot post here for reasons, but you can find them if you care.

It's foolish to chastise people for judging what they can see and play, rather than judging what Bioware might/possibly/maybe/could do.

What's foolish is to start an outrage over what could "maybe, possibly, worst case scenario" happen when we're not even a tenth of the way there and we get input at every junction. A lot of people are filling in missing information with panicked predictions at the moment. People even like to cite stuff like Galactic Command as an example. GC was a very different beast. We didn't have any input on that. It was dropped on us as a finished feature and as a "this is what you get!" kind of situation. PTS was largely cosmetic.

After spending a bit of time reading through the various posts in the PTS sub-forum; I have to say that I find it alarming as well. For those of you saying "wait and see", when in history has there ever been any serious changes made to a system that the player base finds flawed.

After all the screaming that was done around Galactic Command, and how the player base would respond to it.....feedback was ignored and the predicted results ended up happening. Every time that there's been negative feedback, it's been ignored.

EVERY SINGLE TIME.

The proposed changes, as they are presented on PTS, will make me drop my sub here for good.

So typically, each of those skill trees (now loadouts) would have 2 unique abilities in the existing skill tree system.

What they NEED to do, is instead keep all those abilities in those loadouts, but then take the existing abilities that each advanced class gets, and I would go even as far as the primary class as well, and divide ALL those skills among the different loadouts. There certainly IS enough abilities to do that. Leave 3-4 abilities that you keep with the primary class, preferably ones that do NOT feed into tacticals or set bonuses.

Not sure about the examples you listed. So each skill tree now gets two loadouts? And those loadouts are along a fixed path where you need to make choices?

And now because all the tech classes can pick among the advanced classes, there is ZERO need to MIRROR classes any more (like how BH Arsenal and Commando Gunnery mirror each other, or Smuggler Gunslinger and Agent Sniper mirror). As such, as the abilities are divided up, thought should go into which abilities go where, and make each and every load out/skill tree FEEL different.

Not to mention that there is a big difference in skill names for example between the gunslinger and sniper. One of the two would lose that flavour if they made more generic names.

Not sure about the examples you listed. So each skill tree now gets two loadouts? And those loadouts are along a fixed path where you need to make choices?

 

There is still the difference of animations, especially with the force classes. And for the Merc/Commando there is a different way of dealing with energy management. I really really like the merc version much better than the commando version.

 

Not to mention that there is a big difference in skill names for example between the gunslinger and sniper. One of the two would lose that flavour if they made more generic names.

Someone corrected me in the pts thread but my information was a little off. Every advanced class is going to have three loadouts instead of two. It does look like the advanced classes will have some carryover abilities as well.

Still too much ability glut but who knows how they're going to architect this thing until we actually see a real demonstration of it.

I shortened your post for convenience sake, so excuse me for just quoting one passage. I used this specific passage because it said "reason for loadouts."

 

Loadouts will be something you create for your characters. They will be, essentially, appearance tabs for quickbars, gear configurations, combat styles and these new utilities/masteries.

Thank you. I have said that this is just the beginning but I get jumped on for that so I finally stopped trying to get the point across. Hopefully you will have better luck.

Someone corrected me in the pts thread but my information was a little off. Every advanced class is going to have three loadouts instead of two. It does look like the advanced classes will have some carryover abilities as well.

 

Still too much ability glut but who knows how they're going to architect this thing until we actually see a real demonstration of it.

Erm, you gave every DISCIPLINE two loadouts. Now you say every AC aka Combat Style gets 3 loadouts instead of 2.

So which is it now? Discipline or AC?

More likely...

Level 10

Choose one of three utilities/abilities/passives (A|B|C)

Level 15

Choose one of three utilities/abilities/passives (A|B|C)

Level 25

Choose one of three utilities/abilities/passives (A|B|C)

etc...

So that every discipline (Defense | Vigilance | Focus) should each get to customize their 'current' loadout with a scattering of selections between A|B|C across the level tiers.

You could have someone thats running...

B

A

C

B

C

A

B

on a VIGILANCE guardian. Then they could choose to save that as a loadout. They could create another VIGILANCE load out (or modify the current one) to then be

C

C

A

C

B

C

B

as your modifier selections. This is still a VIGILANCE combat style, but tailored based on player choice.

You could then choose to make another loadout to be DEFENSE guardian and run

A

A

A

... you get the idea. Then you can switch between loadouts, alter the modifier selections on loadouts, and your bars/gear/etc will be keyed to that loadout for easy access (out of combat).

So to clarify I expect that we will see 24 combat styles and each time you create a loadout for a combat style you will be given the choice to select your 'talents' or whatever you want to call them. These predefined A/B loadouts in PTS are confusing because they are a utilizing the A|B|C system behind the scene. Although we can not make the choice ourselves right now for which talents we want, they have prebaked two loadouts for each of the three combat styles of Jedi Guardian (focus | vigilance | defense) which has led to confusion over how the system might look later on.

Erm, you gave every DISCIPLINE two loadouts. Now you say every AC aka Combat Style gets 3 loadouts instead of 2.

 

So which is it now? Discipline or AC?

Neither and both. Advanced Classes (AC) are becoming Combat Styles. Combat Styles will retain the Disciplines, but we do not know if they will be called Disciplines or something else.

On live we have Jedi Knight (class), which has two AC's: Sentinel and Guardian. Sentinel and Guardian each have three Disciplines.

Assuming Disciplines remain the same, after 7.0 we will have Sentinel Combat Style and Guardian Combat Style, which are not tied to any story, and each will have three Disciplines. Jedi Knight is no longer a class but the name for the story.

I do not know if the Discipline abilities will still be granted at the same levels that they are on live, but using live as an example the two Guardian DPS Disciplines grant:

• Focus
  
  • Focused Burst - level 10
    
  • Zealous Leap - level 26
    
  • Force Exhaustion - level 42
    
  • Concentrated Slice - level 58
    

  [*]Vigilance

  • Plasma Brand - level 10
    
  • Overhead Slash - level 26
    
  • Whirling Blade - level 42
    
  • Vigilant Thrust - level 58
    

Those abilities are still granted for choosing that Discipline, but in addition to those abilities a Guardian, regardless of Discipline, will have choices at various levels where they choose between abilities and passives. For example, at level 15 all Guardians will be able to choose between Blade Burst (passive), Saber Throw (ability), and Energy Barrage (passive). Blade Burst augments Blade Storm, making it an AOE that slows (basically adding the Freezing Force ability to Blade Storm). Energy Barrage augments Blade Barrage, adding energy damage and immobilizing the target.

So, there are two components. The abilities that are granted by the Disciplines themselves and the choices that one makes that are available to all players of the same Combat Style.

Is that clear as mud?

Neither and both. Advanced Classes (AC) are becoming Combat Styles. Combat Styles will retain the Disciplines, but we do not know if they will be called Disciplines or something else.

I know that but he's mixing them up so I asked him to clarify which one of the two HE meant.

As for your further explanation this is the part I wonder about:

So, there are two components. The abilities that are granted by the Disciplines themselves and the choices that one makes that are available to all players of the same Combat Style.

So I get that the ACs will become Combat Styles and will retain their disciplines, I was already telling people this. What is unclear to me is the choices that you make within a combat style and what that means for utility points. The key I guess if it means if we get fewer abilities (active and passive) because of these choices than we have now.

I know that but he's mixing them up so I asked him to clarify which one of the two HE meant.

I was explaining because ZH had it wrong.

As for your further explanation this is the part I wonder about:

 

So I get that the ACs will become Combat Styles and will retain their disciplines, I was already telling people this. What is unclear to me is the choices that you make within a combat style and what that means for utility points. The key I guess if it means if we get fewer abilities (active and passive) because of these choices than we have now.

We do not know. I have not yet been on PTS (did finally get it downloaded thanks to a kind neighbour), but from what I have read the Disciplines window is disabled on PTS, so we do not know if Utilities are gone, if they will be updated, or if they are being rolled into the passives in the Combat Style choices.

If you review the post about Guardian on the PTS you see that there are a number of choices to be made. We will have choices (at least on Guardian) to make at levels 15, 20, 30, 35, 50, 60, 70, and 80, so 8 choices in total. Whether those 8 choices are intended to replace Utilities or not is unknown. Three of those, levels 15, 35, and 70, grant an ability, with the level 70 choices all being abilities. It does not seem that they are intended to replace Utilities, but they may. Until the rest of the info comes out, the info that BW should have included in this pass, we will not know.

I was explaining because ZH had it wrong.

We do not know. I have not yet been on PTS (did finally get it downloaded thanks to a kind neighbour), but from what I have read the Disciplines window is disabled on PTS, so we do not know if Utilities are gone, if they will be updated, or if they are being rolled into the passives in the Combat Style choices.

 

If you review the post about Guardian on the PTS you see that there are a number of choices to be made. We will have choices (at least on Guardian) to make at levels 15, 20, 30, 35, 50, 60, 70, and 80, so 8 choices in total. Whether those 8 choices are intended to replace Utilities or not is unknown. Three of those, levels 15, 35, and 70, grant an ability, with the level 70 choices all being abilities. It does not seem that they are intended to replace Utilities, but they may. Until the rest of the info comes out, the info that BW should have included in this pass, we will not know.

Yeah, I mean when you have to pick between active and passive abilities, I start to wonder whether these passives come out of the utilities range or whether they come out of the disciplines just like the active ones.

The fact that you have to choose between abilities can mean two things: either it's about the order in which you get them, so in the end you'll have all abilities or they are indeed pruning away abilities as far as what you can have on your character. I suspect it's the latter though and that can mean all kinds of things in particular the rotations and how much output you do.

Rotations now can be very smooth when used correctly now, I wonder if you're gonna have to use more filler abilities because of this. And that reduces output (DPS, Heals). That might be intentional and it might make content just a bit harder especially in Ops. I wouldn't think that leveling content will be much harder mind you.

And that begs the next question of how they're going to deal with Ops balancing and whether or not they'll up all of them to max level like 4.0 and 5.0 or if they're going to keep going along the lines of 6.0. - but too early to ask those questions.

I'm betting they are preparing the game for consoles. They remove abilities to make sure game becomes playable on pads. It kinda sucks.

I'am betting 7.0. will be the last patch for swtor. With ability pruning, team ranked remaining dead, bots farming crafting materials which are being sold on GTN resulting in huge credit inflation, no new classes/advanced classes since game creation and lack of new content this game won't last long. Old players will leave too after their classes are dumbed down. I guess nothing suprising, we were going to this during last years pretty fast and obvious

I'm betting they are preparing the game for consoles. They remove abilities to make sure game becomes playable on pads. It kinda sucks.

But its not even necessary as other mmos showed. Pads and button combos allow pretty much any numer of abilites to be used

While all your fears may turn out to be correct OP, it is also far to early to say. A PTS build is just that, a test. It may not include everything, everything is subject to change.

 

I personally think this is a step in the wrong direction, so over all not happy about it, but still far to soon for this kind of thread.

By the time it gets to PTS, barring any UNUSUALLY LARGE AND LOUD protest, the core mechanics are set pretty much in stone. Some of the details may be altered, but not the premise behind it.

Look back at what was going on with the RNG and types of Amplifiers.

A few people warned about the system and the stats and the attributes the stats affected.

They were told that "it's just PTS and temp placements" not how it will be in the final build.

But it was.

Don't ever count on "it's only PTS and can change"

It won't

Not without a TON of effort that isn't torn apart from one side of forum posters to the other side of forum posters.

Change takes universal agreement in MMOs

The sky is falling.

Again.

So their plan is to offer different weapons to specs in compensation for destroying the class? No thanks.

They aren't offering different weapons to specs, that was an assumption BW let people run with based on their rushed and unnecessarily vague presentation. The are letting us switch certain advanced classes with our characters, possibly very easily. But guardian in 7.0 plays with the same weapons and animations and ability names that it has now.

They aren't offering different weapons to specs, that was an assumption BW let people run with based on their rushed and unnecessarily vague presentation.

We saw the same presentation on live stream and I never assumed an advanced class (combat style) would be able to use a different weapon than they are now.

I'm not saying your post is wrong on the fact they were a bit too vague with their presentation, but I'm just highlighting something: if you went out of that stream thinking your mercenary could suddenly wield a sniper rifle as opposed to your bounty hunter being able to choose the sniper advanced class, you weren't paying full attention. There's nothing in this image suggesting combat styles/advanced classes would be using new weapons.

They aren't offering different weapons to specs, that was an assumption BW let people run with based on their rushed and unnecessarily vague presentation. The are letting us switch certain advanced classes with our characters, possibly very easily. But guardian in 7.0 plays with the same weapons and animations and ability names that it has now.

They weren't vague on the weapon choices still belonging to the AC or Combat Styles. People just wanted it so much that they put their views on it and ignored reality.

Some people also were upset because there would be tech users wielding lightsabers. That's also not the case and this was also clearly communicated.

Guardian will be a Combat Style. It was certainly clear to me that Combat Styles were complete packages that you could choose with other base classes. People just mixed up Classes with Advanced Classes in their heads.

They weren't vague on the weapon choices still belonging to the AC or Combat Styles. People just wanted it so much that they put their views on it and ignored reality.

 

Some people also were upset because there would be tech users wielding lightsabers. That's also not the case and this was also clearly communicated.

 

Guardian will be a Combat Style. It was certainly clear to me that Combat Styles were complete packages that you could choose with other base classes. People just mixed up Classes with Advanced Classes in their heads.

That's kind of what I've gathered. It's more like "pruning" (the term that is being used more ) ... or simplification. Even the team admitted that some of the programming was getting to be tedious with all of the "abilities" that were out there. PvP balance was really getting out of hand. But then again IMO PvP balance is always difficult (even for the most successful games on the market).

WHY the "pruning" ? IMO that could be at the heart of the entire matter. Which abilities should be or should NOT be touched? Not everyone is going to agree with that part. That issue will be debated from now on.

Was there too many "abilities"? Again that will be debated for a long time to come.

IMO ... the best we can hope for is to see what is left when this is done.

I still don't understand why there was so much emphasis placed on this part of the game instead of other parts ( companions for example) or other aspects that would have been more run to engage in.

Maybe there's more coming that the team simply has not unveiled ?? Maybe ?

[/shrugs]

That's kind of what I've gathered. It's more like "pruning" (the term that is being used more ) ... or simplification. Even the team admitted that some of the programming was getting to be tedious with all of the "abilities" that were out there. PvP balance was really getting out of hand. But then again IMO PvP balance is always difficult (even for the most successful games on the market).

 

WHY the "pruning" ? IMO that could be at the heart of the entire matter. Which abilities should be or should NOT be touched? Not everyone is going to agree with that part. That issue will be debated from now on.

 

Was there too many "abilities"? Again that will be debated for a long time to come.

 

IMO ... the best we can hope for is to see what is left when this is done.

 

I still don't understand why there was so much emphasis placed on this part of the game instead of other parts ( companions for example) or other aspects that would have been more run to engage in.

 

Maybe there's more coming that the team simply has not unveiled ?? Maybe ?

 

[/shrugs]

 

I don't think the pruning is really the issue but the way they're doing it. You're going to have to pick between very useful skills. There are some active skills but many passive skills. So it's not even going to reduce the skills in your skillbar by much.

I don't think the pruning is really the issue but the way they're doing it. You're going to have to pick between very useful skills. There are some active skills but many passive skills. So it's not even going to reduce the skills in your skillbar by much.

Yeah .. kind of what I meant .. still comes to "pruning" of a sort ! Now players choose what they use and what gets left behind?? I would still bet that before it's over with some parts get axed altogether. I'll see if I can find the quote ... but it has been said that the programing was getting to be really "tedious". Plus several folks seem to think that there is a "glut" of stuff to do (too many keys to keep track of and consequently too many abilities) .

My own thoughts at this point : I just hate seeing all of the efforts being focused on this aspect of the game at this point in time. So much untapped potential in other areas that could have been explored first. Not to mention other areas that needed TLC from years of neglect. Add to that the COVID impact. Let's face it ... that didn't help ANYONE !!! And the entire entertainment industry felt the impact.

I'm not angry with the development team for their efforts ... but as you say .. probably HOW it's being done has a lot to do with "feed back" right now.

Hopefully this will work out for the best. I'm trying to hang on to a shred of hope ... but there's unquestionably also an uneasiness starting to set in :

(edited)