Thanks Seireeni! Totally agree with your post.

I.e. if there's something in the programming that makes it difficult to get all the decorations break line of sight, maybe they could at least make some of them (a bunch of different ones, naturally) 100% LoS breaking and call them "pvp friendly decorations".

But it's not just that. As of the 4th PTS patch, most interactable decorations are broken. For example, half of the jukeboxes cannot be clicked but show the "not in line of sight" error. I was the only player to report this bug.

Obviously, there is also the LoS bug where AoEs go through decorations, which should be fixed so that the PvP players can hold tournaments. But if the interactable decorations remain broken, I already know what the forums will look like next week.

With a good compromise, nobody is happy.

Decorators felt short-changed with the stronghold, spoke up when they were asked for feedback, were listened to, and got a big bunch of additions, that made the stronghold actually useable for those who imagined a Rishi Stronghold to be a private home on Rishi, rather than an abandoned shanty town.

As a PVPer (not hard core, but certainly not casual either) and decorator, I don't really see a need to own a Stronghold with PVP-zones. For personal use, dueling with friends in my Stronghold, I would have preferred the whole stronghold to be one single open-PVP zone, and I think pvp-roleplayers would have preferred that as well.

The dedicated PVP arenas are mainly a thing for guilds and organized PVP tournaments. And for those they are great. The option to have group matches opens already a lot of new possibilities. The Huttball functionality is just a gimmick, the skydeck is simply too small. Maybe different arena layouts (with traps!) would have been better.

I wrote it before, but IMO the true underlying problem is that we are used to stuff barely ever getting touched after it was released. This shouldn't be a thing, we shouldn't have to fight to get our pet peeves fixed before release.

But it's not just that. As of the 4th PTS patch, most interactable decorations are broken. For example, half of the jukeboxes cannot be clicked but show the "not in line of sight" error. I was the only player to report this bug.

Obviously, there is also the LoS bug where AoEs go through decorations, which should be fixed so that the PvP players can hold tournaments. But if the interactable decorations remain broken, I already know what the forums will look like next week.

I think I have an idea on what they'll look like, too... Let's hope it gets fixed. If not now, then in the next patch. I feel a fix for something like not being able to interact with decorations could wait for a month or two, but I'm poor and own very few interactable decorations anyway, so I don't even pretend to understand why big of an issue it can be to someone else.

But it's not just that. As of the 4th PTS patch, most interactable decorations are broken. For example, half of the jukeboxes cannot be clicked but show the "not in line of sight" error. I was the only player to report this bug.

The bug was reported by others as well, but yes, you were the only one reporting it in the thread asking for feedback on the 3 specific new Rishi functionalities.

The bug was reported several times, but yes, you were the only one reporting it in the thread asking for feedback on 3 specific Rishi functionalities.

Which was the correct place to report it. The bug was introduced due to the changes to line-of-sight, and as Musco wrote:

We would like to ensure that you test and provide feedback on:

• Decorations blocking line of sight.

And can you please link a forum post where this was reported? I have to admit I only skimmed the Overlook feedback thread, so if it was reported there, I take it back. But I didn't see it reported anywhere, unless you mean the in-game /bug command or the private influencer channels.

Edit: Just saw you edited it and linked to your post, my bad then. I really hope the devs have seen it and will fix it.

 

Also, be careful suggesting they quit developing Strongholds and do customizable arenas for players to use instead. The limited amount of development time that resulted in the Stronghold with PvP focus being tweaked for decorators and not bug fixed for it's stated and original purpose should tell you that they cannot do both and release it in a timely fashion. It would be one or the other, just like it was with the feedback on Rishi in the most likely scenario, and I'm sure you'd be none too happy about that (as it means you would have gotten nothing instead of something that was supposed to be for both groups).

 

 

 

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I'm just going to address this as it was my idea. I actually still stand by this because I think it would ultimately have better results. Yes, I absolutely acknowledge that if they did this instead of making strongholds with PvP elements it would mean that sometimes they make an arena and sometimes they would make a stronghold. The reason I think this would work better is that there wouldn't be two different sets of expectations. If you call something a stronghold the decorators are going to look forward to certain things. If you look in the stronghold forum the pinned thread is "Welcome Home". So, it's not as if the players came up with these ideas or impressions without direction.

However, if they created arenas that could be designed and decorated for PvP few people would check that out with the expectation of finding a home. No one would expect there to be a toggle for PvP. The expectation would be that the arena was for PvP and you'd be flagged for it. People would also have different ideas of what the hook layouts should be in order to work best for PvP. I think it would make designing, fine tuning, and debugging so much easier.

Even if someone who didn't PvP bought the arena for decorating they wouldn't buy it and expect there to be a place to make a cantina or a home. Not gonna lie, I'd buy an arena and probably just decorate it for fun, but I'd not expect it to function like a stronghold because it wouldn't be a stronghold.

Now, I doubt they'll do that. If PvP and decorating continue to be combined than it's likely to be in strongholds. Combining these two elements of play was absolutely bound to have clashes since it kind of thrusts a solo play element (meaning you decorate and stuff alone) and a group element like PvP into the same space. I think it can work for both and be a good edition to the game, but will take a lot of fine tuning and tinkering to get it right. This was the last build for the PTS, it's not the final product. Just because the fixes didn't make it into the PTS build it doesn't mean they aren't going to be addressed. Maybe the devs are working on them and have been, but they're more complicated to address than the usual SH tweaks. . I stand by my statement that I'd support another delay for them to address the PvP problems.

Thanks Seireeni! Totally agree with your post.

 

 

But it's not just that. As of the 4th PTS patch, most interactable decorations are broken. For example, half of the jukeboxes cannot be clicked but show the "not in line of sight" error. I was the only player to report this bug.

Obviously, there is also the LoS bug where AoEs go through decorations, which should be fixed so that the PvP players can hold tournaments. But if the interactable decorations remain broken, I already know what the forums will look like next week.

I have to correct you on something, there was a few people that reported the jukeboxes, I know I mentioned it once in a thread when I was making a comment about some of the changes.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9629757#post9629757

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=952028

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9629753#post9629753

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9629701#post9629701

I think I have an idea on what they'll look like, too... Let's hope it gets fixed. If not now, then in the next patch. I feel a fix for something like not being able to interact with decorations could wait for a month or two, but I'm poor and own very few interactable decorations anyway, so I don't even pretend to understand why big of an issue it can be to someone else.

With the jukeboxes specifically, wasn't there also a comment that some of them don't work in some other stronghold - Nar Shaddaa, IIRC? is that a problem with the stronghold or with the deco itself, or with the way it's interacting with certain environments?

With the jukeboxes specifically, wasn't there also a comment that some of them don't work in some other stronghold - Nar Shaddaa, IIRC? is that a problem with the stronghold or with the deco itself, or with the way it's interacting with certain environments?

It's likely a problem with the decoration, considering devs have been trying to fix LoS problems on decorations and you get a LoS error message trying to click it.

One Big SNIP

Look, anything I say just makes you more and more defensive. Since that is the opposite of my aim I'm going to quit responding to you here.

I will just try to make one point that you will hopefully hear and understand: PvP players did post their feedback. They did play test this stronghold on the PTS and tried to help make it what the developers themselves stated they intended the stronghold to be. It is not going to work for that reason because they spent all of their development time making it please a crowd of people that it was not intended for really in the first place. It's unfortunate, but none of that is aimed at YOU or intended personally, so please quit taking it that way. The plain facts are that they didn't have time to cater to the decorators and still make the stronghold work for the reasons they even made it in the first place. They failed at their own goals to please you guys. That's why it's frustrating, because the feedback is THERE. The testing took place, and it is still not going to work right. That frustration is not aimed at you. I would dare say most people are also going to enjoy the changes they made that you guys requested. It's not US vs. YOU. It's simply a shame that they didn't make the stronghold work for PvP, since that's why they made it in the first place.

We're not here to fight with you, but you seem to keep whipping out your guns and saying you won't apologize for it. Well, you may not apologize but I will. I'm sorry if what I said upset you or put us at odds with each other. Honestly, I'm someone who takes decorating very seriously, too. My main character's name is Babydoll, and my publicly listed strongholds are all decorated 100% with great care, and they always appear at the very tip top of the list on Satele Shan (when I still actively played the game - which I don't any longer due to severe content drought) because I've spent an enormous amount of money and work raising my prestige score over the years. I enjoyed it, and to the others at the top of the prestige list we had a very fun game-within-a-game competition that I also enjoyed. At the end, my prestige is either the highest in the entire game, or it's second highest. I don't say this to brag, I say this to point out that decorating is something I took VERY seriously. I'm in total agreement with you on wanting nice spaces to decorate and I always enjoyed doing so. But I also take part and participate in a bunch of other areas of the game, too. When they announced a PvP centered stronghold I was so excited and it was going to give me a reason to return to playing this game. Now, it's not. Again, this is not YOUR fault... I'm simply trying to get you to see it from someone else's vantage point but your own. But obviously I'm failing at getting you to hear me and instead just making you feel like your back is against the wall and you have to combat my posts with your own, so I will quit doing this to both of us.

We have more in common than you think. You don't need to combat me or be defensive, and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way.

Best of luck and I hope that you truly enjoy Rishi. I just wish that those who were looking forward to the developers doing something for them also can find ways to enjoy it, because the PvP is broken and the stronghold will not work for what the developers intended.

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Honestly, the last points from PennyAnn some up anything I could possibly hope to say, but in the most elegant and respectful way. I am truly amazed by the way she/he put it... wow.

 

To be frank, I'm sorry. There were definently times where I was cursing some of your names. Reading PennyAnn's comments have made take a step back and really reconsider my tone and words.

 

Yes PvP has been put on the back burner. In general and in the stronghold. But that doesn't mean the stronghold shouldn't look pretty as many have so viehmently advocated for. Tbh, I would love to fight in a stronghold with amazing graphics and beautiful scenary. It's just a shame that the actual fighting element is disregarded.

Thank you, Prum. I was looking forward to the PvP potential of the stronghold, too... so I get your frustration. I have honestly quit playing SWTOR due to the lack of content and this was something that was making me reconsider. So for it to not work the way they intended is disappointing to me too.

But as someone who is well equipped to give them useful feedback on the PvP functionality, I hope you will continue to help them find ways to eventually make this work the way they intended and look pretty at the same time.

All the best - Penny (definitely a she)

.

 

Since you get into specifics, here's my recap of this PTS cycle:

 

 

• 1st patch: Many PvP players checked out the stronghold, and the majority of the current issues were already mentioned back then. There was only one feedback thread, and here the PvP players were definitely drowned out by decorators. In addition, there was a warzone playtest on the weekend, which took away time from testing the PvP areas of the stronghold.
  Nevertheless, we confirmed the major positioning issues with Holotraverse, and held a 7v7 Huttball match with major lag and desync. At this point it was already clear that you can't have large matches inside strongholds, it is an issue with the engine that cannot be fixed.
  Since I was also helping test the decorating/hook layouts and the training dummy, and I couldn't find the vendor to purchase the PvP decorations, I didn't write a huge post on the PvP issues, but I did link to Snave's VOD where he mentioned all the issues. I even gave specific timestamps, so that the devs wouldn't have to watch the whole 3 hour video. But looking back now, it was clear that in this patch, the devs mainly listened to the feedback from decorators.
   
  
• 2nd patch: A spectator mode was added, and it had a few bugs that I reported. But the major focus of this patch was on the matchmaking changes and the Rishi arena. There were several playtest sessions and I was present during all playtest sessions and gave extensive feedback on those, which left little time to test the PvP areas of the stronghold.
   
  
• 3rd patch: The patch notes mentioned changes to spectator mode, however in the process PvP was disabled in the strongholds. In other words, you entered a PvP area and you were not flagged for PvP, so zero testing of the Huttball area was possible.
  In the end I resorted to dueling a player to verify the patch notes, and noticed that half of the patch notes were wrong; nothing was fixed. For example, spectators were not untargeted and could still be hit with AoE. I was the only player to report this.
  There was also another playtest for the Rishi arena, where I again participated and which took time away from testing the stronghold.
   
  
• 4th patch: Here, the major focus was on the new overlook area. The devs also wanted specific feedback on the LoS issues and whether terminals should be restricted to keys.
  Within 6 hours of the patch going live, I wrote a lengthy post, detailing that all the PvP issues from the 1st patch had been ignored, hoping that the patch gets pushed back again and these issues get fixed. In addition, I verified that bugs like the spectator being hit by AoE are still not fixed (despite being mentioned in the patch notes from the 3rd patch), and that the LoS issues are not fixed. We even had a 2v2 Huttball match where I reported issues like stuns not working, PvP adrenals/medpacs not working, and random LoS issues when attacking players in clear sight.
  These are all alarm signs that the patch is not ready to be released and needs more love.
  

 

Instead, the devs have chosen to go ahead and shutdown PTS and release the patch. We do not know how many of the remaining issues will get fixed, but some issues will surely remain.

At least the crit/absorb bug is getting fixed, which makes me happy since it would have prevented my raiding group from running MM ops until it got hotfixed. But I feel bad for the PvP players who wanted to hold tournaments in the stronghold.

 

 

My feedback to the devs specifically:

• For future PTS cycles, create separate feedback threads for each player group. During the first patch, there should have been separate feedback threads for decorators and for PvP players. Instead, it got mixed together and led to the feedback from PvP players being ignored.
  
• And also for future PTS cycles, do not test everything at once. Specifically, if you want to get feedback from the PvP areas inside the stronghold, do not do a warzone/arena playtest session at the same time. Of all players, I probably spent the most time on PTS, and even I did not have time to test both the PvP areas and the warzone/matchmaking changes.
  
• If you cannot delay this patch, at least ensure that the major issues get fixed with 5.9.3. I consider the following to be major issues which MUST be fixed:
  
  • The hook layout in the Huttball area needs to be completely redone.
    
  • Players who didn't select a team must be removed from the Huttball area when a match starts.
    
  • Players must not be able to get inside the PvP areas after the match has already started.
    
  • Terminals must be restricted to silver keys, not bronze keys.
    
  • PvP adrenals and medpacs must not get disabled when you die in the Huttball area.
    
  • The remaining LoS issues with decorations must be fixed.
    
  • Spectators must be ignored by AoE and knockback abilities. Otherwise, it is super annoying and irritating for streamers to comment on a match.
    
  • There should be a stealth detection for silver/gold key holders so that tournament organizers can be sure there is no stealthed player interfering with the match.
    

  The lag and desync cannot be fixed, but with these changes, at least it becomes viable to organize a tournament, and removes the potential for griefing. (More details, incl. screenshots and videos can be found in this, this and this post.)

I am reposting this with the hope that my long back and forths do not detract from the REALLY important posts in this thread, like this one, that detail things that definitely need to be looked at and addressed/fixed with the Stronghold.

Thank you for your efforts, Jerba!

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(snip for space)

Hey, thank you. I do know that discussions here get very heated very quickly, and yeah, you are one of the posters I actually do respect and like, so I wasn't trying to flame you. So I will extend an apology if that is how it came across.

I do think we have more in common than we realize, and one of those things is probably the very bitter disappointment at feeling that the game isn't giving us the content we'd like to play or see. The Rishi stronghold was my only reason fro subscribing this summer, too, since there's very little content I enjoy being released. It was something that had been wanted for a long time, and people were excited about it, and then boom, when it was released on the PTS and I saw it, and couldn't even go through it because of the PvP flag, it really was like a slap in the face.

When they actually listened on the PTS ad made changes, it was like a ray of hope that maybe, just maybe, the devs were still interested in doing something with this game and listening to the players. But I do understand and sympathize if other players, who wanted something else out of the SH and don't feel that they were heard, are disappointed. You're totally right that it shouldn't be breeding animosity or anger between groups of players, and that it's not beneficial to anyone to feed that.

So I am actually really sorry that the SH was not what you wanted it to be and was a disappointment. That's never nice to deal with and I've certainly felt the same at points with this game. All the best.