PvE - Survivability

 

The developers stated in the Sorcerer answers that healing is intended to make up a significant part of Sage survivability and the suggestion of providing defensive cooldowns besides Force Mend and Force Barrier were rejected outright. The community believes that Sage survivability suffers from a number of inherent problems with its defensive tools.

 

In order to use Force Armor or Force Mend on yourself, you need to use a global cooldown. And in the case of Force Armor use 5%-10% of your resources. That's simply an unacceptable trade off in most PvE situations. For example in Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where an operation member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire operation. In many of these cases, Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is first mitigated by armor and passive damage resistance and Sages have the least access to those options.

 

Most recently the final fight of Dread Fortress has a very high DPS check with significant damage coming from the boss (both AOE and randomly targeted). Sages need to spend GCDs and resources rather than doing damage and that increases the chance of a defeat. Athough Sages are still able to clear the content, the community is concerned that their lower survivability makes them less suitable for progression content.

 

These issues have caused many in the community to speculate that Sages are intended to be a "glass cannon," frail but able to pack a punch. Sages, however, don't have the inverse advantage in damage to survival that one would expect if that was the case. Many spirited discussions have issued debating this question of the theory of Sage survivability and we invite the developers to take part.

 

The question

 

Are the developers satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability, specifically in PvE operations? What is your philosophy towards the Sage class and its defenses? Are there any plans to improve the class's current survival tools? For example, by perhaps providing a means with which to move our tools (Force Armor, Force Mend, etc.) off the GCD when cast on yourself?

 

PvP - Seer Spec Issues

 

Currently, Sage healers have a number of issues that affect their play. First, Sages are nearly 100% reliant on casted healing abilities. Our only instant healing abilities are Force Armor and Rejuvenate. Force Armor has a long lockout and Rejuvenate is a small heal mostly used to proc Conveyance. Salvation can be cast instantly, but it requires using Healing Trance (and usually Rejuvenate) as a set-up.

 

In PvP, this causes great issues, because while Sage healers are capable of putting up great numbers because of Salvation spamming, under heavy pressure a static AoE heal is not ideal in the frenetic PvP environment.

 

The Noble Sacrifice/Consumption mechanic is really unique, and the community agrees that in PvE at least it provides Seer/Corruption with a sensible mechanic for restoring Force. In PvP, this mechanic presents very serious problems. Sage healers are one of the priority targets for being focused and in that situation purposefully sacrificing your health to maintain force is not possible. This is exacerbated by the issue of Sage healers being reliant on casts. This puts the Sage in the unenviable situation of having to stay still to restore health and Force.

 

Also, while Benevolence has its uses in emergency situations and off healing as a DPS, for Seer Sages this ability is very underwhelming and rarely used. In your 2.0 blog you mentioned that the ability is to be used when Force efficiency is not a concern. Unfortunately, in most emergencies efficiency is a concern as wasteful rotations will only lead to a prolonged emergency.

 

The question

 

Are the developers considering any changes to Seer spec to reduce the heavy reliance on casted abilities or to improve force management in a way that is not detrimental to survival? For example, improving Rejuvenate, reducing the lockout duration of Force Armor, or removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice via set bonuses?

 

Sage as Jedi

 

While the majority of these class representative questions, both Sages and other classes, have been about balance issues, the Sage community has a unique concern shared in some respects with our mirror class, the Sorcerer but in some ways unique to the Sage class. Put bluntly, the class has some visual and mechanical issues that make it feel more like a traditional mage class instead of a Jedi. There are two main reasons for this: (1) We don’t use our lightsaber for anything; (2) Several animations lack the feeling of power. Discussing those in turn.

 

Sages and Sorcerers are force using classes and as such have the lightsaber as a weapon proficiency. In addition, our force free attack Saber Strike is a melee attack. The game mechanics, however, go out of their way to ensure that players have no incentive to use their lightsaber for any reason. Sages have only two weapon attacks and those attacks do not benefit from our main stat Willpower. This results in the unique situation of Sages (and Sorcerers) being the only class that does not use their main weapon for anything save a stat boost. This is directly LORE breaking as even the archetypal Sage and Sorcerer, Yoda and Palpatine were gifted melee combatants.

 

The second issue is with respect to certain animations of the Sage specifically. With the understanding that to mirror the consular and inquisitor classes, certain design choices had to be made, nevertheless many members of the Sage community question the appropriateness of two signature moves of the consular, Project and Telekinetic Throw. It is questionable whether Jedi should be using the force in this manner from a LORE perspective. Yoda tells us, “A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never to attack.” And the only force users in the movies to use telekinesis to throw items as an attack are the Sith: Darth Vader (in Ep.V), Darth Tyranus (in Ep. 2 & 3) and Darth Sidious (In Ep.3) Also, some players simply consider TK Throw particularly to be a lackluster animation that lacks the coolness factor of lightning on the Sith side – and nowhere in six movies or a host of licensed games, has debris throwing been a signature jedi move. For more information see http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=718365

 

The question

 

Will the developer do anything to ameliorate these issues? Examples include allowing Willpower to affect melee attacks; providing additional worthwhile lightsaber attacks; and offering alternate animations via the Cartel Market or otherwise (Marketing take note! ).

 

FEEDBACK

 

Skill Tax - In order to maintain any reasonable force management, Sages must spend 5 points in the Telekinetics tree. And arguably to be at their best, Seers must spend an additional 2 points to improve Force Armor. In addition, while VERY much appreciated, Egress requires an additional 7 points in the Seer tree. The Balance tree has boosts of mainstat, resistance and periodic damage boosts that are very desirable. All of this contributes to making full trees less than desirable.

 

Pushback - Also as discussed in the 2.7 test forums, TK suffers greatly from pushback on Mind Crush and Telekinetic Throw. The developers have stated that they are considering removing pushback and the Sage community lends its approval of that idea. The concern about healers is not well founded because the undisputed best PvP healing class Scoundrel/Operatives are not limited to any significant extent by pushback while it is a great concern for Sages and Commandos.

 

Execute - In the Commando answers, the developers stated:

We are slowly developing away from the idea that off-healing capabilities should lower the sustained damage output of skill trees that focus on dealing damage.

But in addition to sustained damage, a damage spec needs some reasonable burst in both PvE and PvP. Base Sages have no ability that has any appreciable burst. As we move toward the new expansion and level cap, the Sage community suggests that the developers reconsider whether Sages could reasonably be granted an execute talent or ability.

 

Set bonuses - Finally, certain set bonuses are imbalanced between PvE and PvP. For example, the sage healer is incentivized to get the PvE mystic 2 piece (lowers the cooldown of Healing Trance), as that is our most important healing ability and at least somewhat works in the presence of bolster. Taking the PvP 4 piece bonus (Sacrifice heals 3% over 6 seconds) is widely seen as less helpful. Like wise in PvE, our Seers have an incentive to take the PvP set bonus as their 4 piece bonus (50 extra force) doesn't seem as helpful.

 

Our Force Masters see little need for extra range on Project and Mind Snap (4 piece PvP bonus) and so go to the Force Mystic set or likewise use PvE gear to get that 2 piece bonus. In PvE, a similar dilemma exists as the PvP 2 piece bonus (reduction in the cooldown + heal on Mind Crush) is very desirable.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Master-Nala

(Reserved for responses/discussion)

Has BW picked these up yet?

It was said they'd get them on May, 8th, no ?

It was said they'd get them on May, 8th, no ?

 

I have no idea, which is why I asked XD

Has BW picked these up yet?

 

Tait acknowledge receipt via PM.

 

However, please note that they haven't answered the Assassin questions yet, so it will be awhile for us I think.

Hmm the set bonus is definitely an overall issue for classes. 2.0 shouldve done better at changing most of these around to better suit class specs. My main (Sorc) runs with PvP Stalker gear because I would rather the increased range of Force Slow but importantly the extra Recklessness/Force Potency. For Madness/Balance i would say the Force Master PvP set bonus does not help as much. The 2-set bonus is less of a benefit with 2.7 changes and most can agree Shock is useless compared to Lightning Strike (4-set increases Shock/Project range). With that said PvE Force Master set bonus is amazing so yes there is an imbalance.

The best thing about the questions is that you could flip the PVE and PVP questions and they would still be legitimate.

 

Feedback was a clever way to sneak in 4 more issues =) It would be really nice if all the classes could get to a point where each class has some slight advantages and slight disadvantages instead of some classes being glaringly weaker than the other options.

I had never thought of using the 2pc PvP set bonus in PvE. Has anyone done any parsing to see how good the benefits are? I'm particularly interested in TK, since without the 4pc PvE set bonus, TK has an incredibly rigid rotation where you literally never have to make decisions about tradeoffs between one ability or another. That would certainly be the place where a Mind Crush CD reduction would have the most palpable impact. Balance of course is more dependent on Mind Crush and Mind Crush does more damage, but a 1.5 second CD reduction would throw it out of alignment with Force in Balance.

Was there no problem more pressuring than our melee attacks and the possibility to purchase animations in CM????

 

What about the Force Management issues in Balance/Madness?

 

What about the 360° knockback and instant WW? All the other ranges classes got 360° and no one else has to cast their mezz. And why do sins (who are the reasons that we sorcs lost those 2, get instant WW back and we don't) and we don't?

 

What about those lags that cause you to jump forth and back again with Force Sprint, so thatt you will end up right next to where you started 2 secs earlier?

 

What about getting 9% crit chance instead of 9% damage on dots like the other classes, so that yourself heal is somewhat more reliable? When the class was initially designed we all had higher crit ratings. We basically have to pay for something other dot based spec tress get for free and as if this was not enoug we can not get what they are getting.

 

What about the fact that Recklessness still only gives us 60% like in the beginning, but the overall crit chance has been reduced significantly?

 

What about those set bonuses? Don't you think that is more important than getting some melee attacks?

(Even though it is a shame that we still have to ask to received decent 4 piece Set Bonuses after 2,5 years)

 

Or what about those NEW answers they promised us after those crappy answers on our last 3 Questions?

 

Hell. Even asking whether it is the same guy like last time who is answering our questions would have been more interesting.

 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what you did here (unfortunately I saw this thread too late). But are more important questions than our melee attacks. Plus do you really want to enter close-quarter combat as a sorc? Didn't you first question point out our lack of survivability - which is as mentioned true for both PvE and PvP.

Didn't you first question point out our lack of survivability - which is as mentioned true for both PvE and PvP.

 

It was argued in this discussion that the question for survivability had already been asked by the Sorc Rep, and that it had received the flattening "H2F" response.

 

Therefore the fear was there that we might get a similar response again, which would render the question absolutely useless and wasted.

 

That's how I saw it, at least.

Edited May 27, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

I had never thought of using the 2pc PvP set bonus in PvE. Has anyone done any parsing to see how good the benefits are? I'm particularly interested in TK, since without the 4pc PvE set bonus, TK has an incredibly rigid rotation where you literally never have to make decisions about tradeoffs between one ability or another. That would certainly be the place where a Mind Crush CD reduction would have the most palpable impact. Balance of course is more dependent on Mind Crush and Mind Crush does more damage, but a 1.5 second CD reduction would throw it out of alignment with Force in Balance.

 

Do a parse using Stalker set for Potency.

Was there no problem more pressuring than our melee attacks and the possibility to purchase animations in CM????

 

What about the Force Management issues in Balance/Madness?

 

What about the 360° knockback and instant WW? All the other ranges classes got 360° and no one else has to cast their mezz. And why do sins (who are the reasons that we sorcs lost those 2, get instant WW back and we don't) and we don't?

 

What about those lags that cause you to jump forth and back again with Force Sprint, so thatt you will end up right next to where you started 2 secs earlier?

 

What about getting 9% crit chance instead of 9% damage on dots like the other classes, so that yourself heal is somewhat more reliable? When the class was initially designed we all had higher crit ratings. We basically have to pay for something other dot based spec tress get for free and as if this was not enoug we can not get what they are getting.

 

What about the fact that Recklessness still only gives us 60% like in the beginning, but the overall crit chance has been reduced significantly?

 

What about those set bonuses? Don't you think that is more important than getting some melee attacks?

(Even though it is a shame that we still have to ask to received decent 4 piece Set Bonuses after 2,5 years)

 

Or what about those NEW answers they promised us after those crappy answers on our last 3 Questions?

 

Hell. Even asking whether it is the same guy like last time who is answering our questions would have been more interesting.

 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what you did here (unfortunately I saw this thread too late). But are more important questions than our melee attacks. Plus do you really want to enter close-quarter combat as a sorc? Didn't you first question point out our lack of survivability - which is as mentioned true for both PvE and PvP.

 

I guess some of the answers you seek will become apparent, padawan.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Ycoga

Was there no problem more pressuring than our melee attacks and the possibility to purchase animations in CM????

 

What about the Force Management issues in Balance/Madness?

 

What about the 360° knockback and instant WW? All the other ranges classes got 360° and no one else has to cast their mezz. And why do sins (who are the reasons that we sorcs lost those 2, get instant WW back and we don't) and we don't?

 

What about those lags that cause you to jump forth and back again with Force Sprint, so thatt you will end up right next to where you started 2 secs earlier?

 

What about getting 9% crit chance instead of 9% damage on dots like the other classes, so that yourself heal is somewhat more reliable? When the class was initially designed we all had higher crit ratings. We basically have to pay for something other dot based spec tress get for free and as if this was not enoug we can not get what they are getting.

 

What about the fact that Recklessness still only gives us 60% like in the beginning, but the overall crit chance has been reduced significantly?

 

What about those set bonuses? Don't you think that is more important than getting some melee attacks?

(Even though it is a shame that we still have to ask to received decent 4 piece Set Bonuses after 2,5 years)

 

Or what about those NEW answers they promised us after those crappy answers on our last 3 Questions?

 

Hell. Even asking whether it is the same guy like last time who is answering our questions would have been more interesting.

 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what you did here (unfortunately I saw this thread too late). But are more important questions than our melee attacks. Plus do you really want to enter close-quarter combat as a sorc? Didn't you first question point out our lack of survivability - which is as mentioned true for both PvE and PvP.

 

The thread where we collated and developed the questions was around from February, I am sorry that you missed it but that was more than ample time to voice concerns.

Well true that but I was always looking out for those Official Sticky Posts like last time. Plus if I got time Iam usually checking on the sorcerer forum.

 

But you would think that within all those months someone would have voiced those concerns. And even if no one did ... any decent sage/sorc should have come up with those questions. And any decent sage/sorc should realize that there are problems much more sever than getting melee attacks as a range class or to be able to buy animations in CM.

 

I guess that fear of getting a ****** answer is justified, but you are still asking it anyways. It's the first question.

 

@Ycoga would you mind sharing those "apparent answers" with me?

Ycoga would you mind sharing those "apparent answers" with me?

 

They're not here yet - the Dev's are still responding.

 

However I can share this thread with you, that contains the discussions that led to the questions:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=721964

Edited May 27, 2014 by Ycoga

Was there no problem more pressuring than our melee attacks and the possibility to purchase animations in CM????

 

Where were you when I asked specifically what issues people wanted? We have a 50 page thread that was up for weeks to vet the questions.

 

What about the Force Management issues in Balance/Madness?

 

This issue has been resolved pretty much as well as it's going to be in 2.7 and 2.8. With there being even more reason to use TK Throw/Force Lightning for its full duration and the reduction from TK Focal Point/Focal Lightning, force issues are greatly lessened in Balance. Yes, we still have to manage resources, but that's OK.

 

What about the 360° knockback

 

Revisiting nerfs from 1.2 is only likely to get a H2F type answer.

 

and instant WW? All the other ranges classes got 360° and no one else has to cast their mezz.

 

Actually, Commandos/Mercs have to cast their mezz as well unless they burn tech override.

 

And why do sins (who are the reasons that we sorcs lost those 2, get instant WW back and we don't) and we don't?

 

Crap if I know, but our questions were done before I knew that was going to happen.

 

What about those lags that cause you to jump forth and back again with Force Sprint, so thatt you will end up right next to where you started 2 secs earlier?

 

I've never heard of this issue and it appears hardware/server lag related, not related to the class.

 

What about those set bonuses? Don't you think that is more important than getting some melee attacks?

(Even though it is a shame that we still have to ask to received decent 4 piece Set Bonuses after 2,5 years)

 

Honestly, not really. You find them more important, but a great many people care about the issue and it comes up MUCH more often than set bonus complaints.

 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what you did here (unfortunately I saw this thread too late). But are more important questions than our melee attacks. Plus do you really want to enter close-quarter combat as a sorc? Didn't you first question point out our lack of survivability - which is as mentioned true for both PvE and PvP.

 

Let me explain. First, I would encourage you to read through at least a bit of the earlier thread where we hashed these out: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=721964

 

As I stated in there over and over, I was looking for what the community was concerned about. You personally do not care about visual issues like the lightsaber. I can see that, but that is not to say that others don't. People get so hung up on balance issues, that they forget that others care deeply about visual issues and the feel of the character.

 

As I also stated in that thread, if it were solely Master-Nala asking the questions, none of the three actually asked would have been asked. But these were really the top three issues that come up again and again THAT HAVE NOT ALREADY BEEN ADDRESSED BY THE DEVS. That last point is important which is why I internet-shouted it. Sages have gotten buffs in two straight updates. The hoards have already suggested that we are in OP territory. In fact, if it were not for Guardian/Juggs Heal to Full, I suspect that drum-beat would have been louder.

 

Finally, I don't really like this Class Rep thing. I think the devs should just answer questions when they come up like Rob Hinkle has been doing recently. But this is the system they created and so to use a very trite saying, "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

First of all I don't hate the player ... as I said I appreciate what you are doing. And I am sorry I didn't notice this thread early but as I said my time I limited and when I checked forum I checked the sorc forum as it used to be the more active one. I was also looking out for those BW stickies like last time we got to ask questions.

How the hell was I supposed to know that someone started a thread and that they are taking this unmarked thread as the source for the 3 questions. Especially since they appearently only take the sage forums into account and don't give a **** what is written in the sorcs forum - well done BW!!! First they appoint some class representatives, then they totally screw them over and basically made them leave the game, and then instead of getting some questions through an official thread they take a random thread many don't even know about. (No offence, as I said I don't blame you at all).

 

So people think the visuals are more important than the balancing. If the visuals are great but the balancing utterly sucks then people won't be playing this game anymore - you might have a flashy light show but no fun in playing the game.

 

Revisiting 1.2 might not be a bad idea since those geniuses have been reverting those changes step by step as they started how utterly inappropriate they were.

 

Maybe commandos have to cast their mezz too, but they got at least the possibility to have it instant if they need it. Oh and guess who else has been complaining about survivability for quite some time now.

 

We get to ask 3 questions roughly once a year and you guys choose to ask about melee attacks for a squishy range class and CM items? You don't want to be in close-quarters as a sorc. And you don't have to waste one of those valuable tree questions we get to ask for Cartel Market issues. CM questions are one of the few questions they are answering all year long.

 

Of course the hordes are suggesting that we are OP. They are not use to having to put some effort und brainpower into killing a sorc. They will get use to it. And if they don't ... though luck, we sages/sorcs had a tough life since 1.2.

 

And finally: you are 100% right about the class rep system. It is a shame the entire community can ask 3 questions once a year. It is a nice change that they started to communicate more frequently with the community. But unfortunately that seems to be limited to the Test Server and CM issues.