As illustrated in a couple of excellent posts by Lord_of_Sith, the real issue with gunships one-shotting people is not so much the gunship itself, but the way it works with the co-pilot skill Bypass. You can see the math at this link:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7018240#post7018240

Bypass is an awesome skill, and one I use on my ships as well, but in the case of mastered gunships it allows a one shot kill on the strongest scout build possible without a critical.

I, and many others I've talked to, have no issue with gunships being able to one shot scouts on a critical, and being able to two shot any other ship without one. Sniping is their only role, and they should be the best at it. It adds an element of danger to assaulting a satellite and makes team work more necessary.

So a small tweak to Bypass could be enough to bring everything back into balance without having to directly nerf or buff any given ship class. Dropping bypass to 30%-34% instead of 35% gives scouts an effective gunship hunting build that cannot be easily one shot. I personally think 32% would be an effective level, as Bypass would retain it's usefulness for everyone, and there would be a bit of a buffer in case the scouts shields and hull are not fully mastered.

Thoughts?

I play a scout as my primary and see no issue with bypass as it is, if I get one shot by a gunship so be it. I should have been looking for them around the area before approaching, and guess what they can't do that every shot it is a decent length cooldown. There is a chance my team will get on them after they fired the first shot and if they don't, guess where I am going on the scout as soon as I respawn, to hunt that gunship.

If you change that why not change the blaster overload that scouts get which when mastered allows you to kill someone so quickly it might as well be a one shot, ever class as things they can do with cooldowns to make one particular attack or attack run extremely powerful, this is not an issue.

If you look at the math in the linked post you can see the issue I'm referring to. It's not that scouts can be one-shot, as that's really okay, but rather that there is no effective counter build to a maxed out gunship with Bypass active. When dealing with that case, it is possible to one shot a scout without a critical no matter what his build is.

Dropping Bypass a few points gives you one (and only one) effective counter build as a scout should you choose to run it, and even that will still die to a one shot critical.

And in general, I think Bypass is a bit OP as it stands even for scouts and strikes. At the moment, there's really no reason you would want to run with any other active ability if you intend to play offensively. Tweaking it by a point or three would bring it more into balance with the effectiveness of the other active skills.

Does this ability also give you 100% chance to hit while active?

Riôt

If you look at the math in the linked post you can see the issue I'm referring to. It's not that scouts can be one-shot, as that's really okay, but rather that there is no effective counter build to a maxed out gunship with Bypass active. When dealing with that case, it is possible to one shot a scout without a critical no matter what his build is.

 

Dropping Bypass a few points gives you one (and only one) effective counter build as a scout should you choose to run it, and even that will still die to a one shot critical.

 

And in general, I think Bypass is a bit OP as it stands even for scouts and strikes. At the moment, there's really no reason you would want to run with any other active ability if you intend to play offensively. Tweaking it by a point or three would bring it more into balance with the effectiveness of the other active skills.

Read the math, have seen all the rants and complaints about railguns, gunships, and everything else and

Again, I don't see a problem even if no matter what build my scout can be one shotted, so what? I am going to hunt down that guy as soon as I am back and chances are he wont have that ability cooldown anymore. additionally he still has to hit on his one attack with bypass on, if I am flying erratic or even my passive evasion gives me a chance of it doing zero damage, if my cooldown is active for 110% evasion he is not going to hit and deal zero damage, I would call that an effective counter.

There are plenty of reasons to use other companions also, I don't use the bypass on my scout because the passive abilities are not the ones I like, so I end up taking HK or Jasea with the crit active or the dot active because they have passives that fit what I prefer.

Also as a note i play a scout of strike fighter, i sapped my gunships req to use for my scout because i don't like playing it i get harassed by scouts too much to be effective if the other team is competent so its not fun for me.

I have no issue with Bypass as is HOWEVER it > most other active abilities other than perhaps hydro spanner even tho that was nerfed pre-release but is still good, and Crit one is nice too. Personally never liked the DoT one or rest. But If anything I'd reduce the time it's active or reduce a few %. But EVERYONE can use Bypass so it's not like it's Gunship only.

Scouts can adapt also many ways to make yourself able to withstand a bypass snipe. And if you do die, as said above you can usually find that gunship and kill it, depending on how you're built. Also you should ALWAYS be mobile in any GSF but especially scout with your speed and maneuverability. I try to never fly straight line. If I'm sniped and I don't see it coming/know a gunships around it's usually because I'm distracted or am flying predictably or more or less linearly. But from my experience I've rarely had issues with Gunships that way, certainly never to point where I die left and right.

And if I get killed when I find a gunship and go to kill/harass it if I die it's my fault by either neglecting maneuvers or using direct shield/distortion buff at the wrong time or gunship gets assisted by other fighters and I'm singled out.

But If anything I'd reduce the time it's active or reduce a few %. But EVERYONE can use Bypass so it's not like it's Gunship only.

The fact that it isn't gunship specific is why it's an excellent candidate for tweaking, to fix many 'gunship is OP' complaints. If bypass is lowered to 34% (from 35%), scouts would be able to choose a build (maxed hull hp armor) that would withstand a non-crit gunship hit

Scouts can adapt also many ways to make yourself able to withstand a bypass snipe.

As it stands, there is no way for a scout to withstand a bypass snipe, aside from not getting hit.

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I believe the OP and I are on the same page regarding one-shotting scouts with gunships:

1. If the gunship gets a crit, it is a guaranteed one-shot on a scout. This is fine; it is left to RNG to get that crit. To repeat, we do not have a problem with gunships one-shotting people with crits.

2. If there is a guaranteed and controllable one-shot mechanism/build, there should be a counter-build available. This counter-build would allow a scout to choose specific components to avoid that guaranteed and controllable one-shot. However, this counter-build would still leave the scout vulnerable to one-shots from crits. It would also be vulnerable to one-shots if they are at anything less than full shields/hp. The only one-shots removed from the table would be 100%shield/100%hp noncrit bypass shots.

Any fundamental disagreements with those two premises probably won't be resolved through any forum discussion, as we just envision the ideal game in different ways.

Now our idea for how to fix #2:

Currently, bypass is a 15 second active ability that grants 35% shield penetration. When added to the natural 30% shield penetration (and 100% armor penetration) of a slug railgun, the 65% shield penetration allows a gunship to one-shot a scout regardless of how strong their shields or hull are. Bypass lasts for 15 seconds; this means that a gunship gets ~4-5 attempts to hit a target, and a guaranteed one-shot if they get a single hit.

If you look at my post linked in the OP above, you will see that most one-shots don't deplete the targets shields; the shield piercing is just so great that it depletes the hull regardless of shield strength. As it stands right now, there are a number of ways to boost shield strength, several ways to boost damage reduction, but one single way to increase hull hp: Reinforced armor. As shield strength and damage reduction are irrelevant against bypass gunships, this leaves hull hp, shield penetration, and gunship damage as the only factors in the one-shot equation.

To pull in numbers from the linked thread above (and if you disagree with my math, let me know and i'll take a look to fix it):

A scout has 950hp. With maxed reinforced armor, it gains 20%hp, bringing it up to 1140hp.

A Slug railgun w/ damage for T5 Upgrade, Bypass activated deals 616 shield, 1144 hull damage.

You'll see that if a bypass shot did 5 less hull damage, the scout would survive with 1hp. This is all we are asking for, less than half of a percent reduction in damage.

To fix this gap, you could

1) buff all scout base hp by 4 (after reinforced armor it would have 1145hp, leaving a scout with 1hp after being shot);

2) reduce base slug railgun damage by 7 (after 10%dmg upgrade and 65% shield piercing, it would deal 1139 hull dmg, leaving a scout with 1hp after being shot);

3) reduce base slug railgun shield piercing by 1% (would deal 1127 hull dmg, leaving a scout with 13hp after being shot)

4) increase reinforced armor to 21% instead of 20% (scout would have 1150hp, leaving it with 6hp after being shot);

5) add a new companion that gives +X% hull hp; likely numbers in-line with other companion buffs would be 5-10%, and that would be enough

6) reduce bypass shield piercing by 1% (gunship would deal 1127 hull dmg, leaving a scout with 13hp after being shot).

To address these: #1-3 are bad ideas; buffing a single ship or nerfing a single ship is just not necessary at this point in the game. #4 isn't terrible, but the Rycer (default strike fighter) doesn't get armor, so it wouldn't receive the buff while everyone else does. #5 would be my favorite out of all of this, but I won't count on them adding new companions or drastically changing existing ones. That leaves #6: reduce bypass from 35% to 34%. This would be an evenly applied negligible impact change, with the exception that it would allow scouts to build against bypass one-shots.

To be clear, this change (reducing bypass from 35% to 34%) would still allow any gunship to one shot any scout through a critical hit. It would also allow any gunship to one shot using bypass any scout that doesn't have fully upgraded reinforced armor.

This would simply give gunships the option of making a guaranteed one-shot build (which can also RNG one-shot through crits), but give scouts a possible build to avoid guaranteed one shots. The shot would still leave the scout crippled, and if they were already damaged (hull or shields) they would still be one shot; it would just avoid literal one-shots from 100%shields/100%health.

It's not that scouts can be one-shot, as that's really okay, but rather that there is no effective counter build to a maxed out gunship with Bypass active.

As a scout, when the gunship is charging, click Distortion Field and you will not get one shot and they will be dead before they can charge another shot.

Evasion seems to have a much smaller effect on railguns as they have such a high base accuracy once maxed out. It can make them miss, however, a skilled gunship pilot who sees you charging will hold off until you get in short range, at which point even with distortion field active they have an excellent chance to kill you.

That said, I do have one correction to my original premise, which is that there is no effective counter to the one shot kill for a scout, and that is that with the Sting/Flashfire variant scouts are allowed to carry directional shields which do not have the -30% penalty. Carrying that shield and reinforced armor it is possible to have a scout build that can withstand a mastered railgun using Bypass. If you are charging and double front them, it's even possible (although unlikely) to survive two.

We discussed it a bit here in case anyone wants to check my math.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=705499

I still think Bypass is a bit overpowered compared to the other companion abilities, and could use a minor tweak down. This is not solely for gunships, as I think it's a bit OP with masted blasters as well.

Until that happens, though, I plan to be flying a Flashfire....

That said, I do have one correction to my original premise, which is that there is no effective counter to the one shot kill for a scout, and that is that with the Sting/Flashfire variant scouts are allowed to carry directional shields which do not have the -30% penalty. Carrying that shield and reinforced armor it is possible to have a scout build that can withstand a mastered railgun using Bypass. If you are charging and double front them, it's even possible (although unlikely) to survive two.

A sting/flashfire using fully upgraded directional shields, large reactor, and reinforced armor, and a companion with 10% shield capacity boost, will have 1140hp and 1820 shields. I have seen the number 175% thrown around for putting directional shields in one direction; if this is the case, there would be 3185 shields in that direction.

So we're looking at 3185 shields, 1140hp.

A slug railgun with damage upgrade does:

No copilot ability activated: 1232 shield damage, 528 hull damage. Takes 3 hits to kill.

Bypass activated: 616 shield damage, 1144 hull damage. One-shot (1144 hull damage regardless of shield strength).

A slug railgun with crit upgrade does :

No copilot ability activated, no crit. 1120 shield damage, 480 hull damage. Takes 3 hits to kill.

No copilot ability activated, crit. 2240 shield damage, 860 hull damage. Takes 2 hits to kill.

Bypass activated, no crit. 560 shield damage, 1040 hull damage. Takes 2 hits to kill.

Bypass activated, crit. 1120 shield damage, 2080 hull damage. One-shot.

Can still 1-shot even if you jack up shields and put them all in the direction of the shot. However, using directional shield can allow you to survive a normal crit hit.

Interesting. I guess this depends on how shield penetration works. Does 65% shield penetration mean I ignore 65% of your shields as I was assuming, or does it mean that 65% of your damage always goes through no matter what as your math is set?

If the former, then boosting shields would prevent destruction, but if it's the latter then you are correct. Do we have any yellow text explaining that, or solid numbers to show it?

I was basing it mostly off of anecdotal evidence in that, since equipping direction shields, reinforced armor and a large reactor I have never been one shot by a gunship. However, it's very possible that I simply haven't been shot by anyone with a mastered railgun, since we're only talking about a dozen matches.

If no mod has posted (or posts) maybe we can get a gunship pilot or two to post. Do you always do consistent hull damage with your railgun, or are there times none of the damage bleeds through?

Interesting. I guess this depends on how shield penetration works. Does 65% shield penetration mean I ignore 65% of your shields as I was assuming, or does it mean that 65% of your damage always goes through no matter what as your math is set?

The latter.

Now the math has me thinking I need to change shield and crew back to maximizing evasion instead of shield power. If there is no way to avoid the one shot Bypass kill, then I might as well maximize the chance that they will miss.

You can max a scout at what, 41% passive evasion skill?

Anyway, apart from the gunship debate, I still think Bypass is a bit OP. When I stack it with Blaster Overcharge on my scout I take fully charged ships apart in about 5 seconds. It just needs a bit of a nerf, say down to 32%.

For a game to be fun, everyone has to have a chance.

At no point should any build ever allow one shot kills in GSF. Having a range 3 times that of any other weapon is enough, the damage output should never be so over powering that a ship can die just trying to get to the firer and never getting into range with their own weapons.

Gunships should be seen less as snipers (one shot, one kill) and more as support ships (able to soften up targets from range). Giving any ship the ability to destroy another in one or two shots takes away from the feel of the game as a Star Wars space combat sim.

Hunting Gunships is something I like to do. The problem lay in the fact that merely getting to them is next to impossible and their strong defenses make taking one out a challenge. Meanwhile, they can completely strip your shields and armor (or bypass it altogether) from any range.

In feel, GS's are not balanced. I think the best way to balance them is to put a minimum range on the railguns of around 4 or 5k. Making them ineffective inside a certain range will force GS pilots to upgrade their entire ship in a more balanced fashion rather than just maxing their Plasma and Ions.

For a game to be fun, everyone has to have a chance.

 

At no point should any build ever allow one shot kills in GSF. Having a range 3 times that of any other weapon is enough, the damage output should never be so over powering that a ship can die just trying to get to the firer and never getting into range with their own weapons.

It's not 3x as far, proton torpedoes have a range of 11.5km, heavy laser cannons achieve close to I think 8km range. A strike is capable of taking multiple hits from a railgun with directional shields. The one shot kill is on a 1 min cooldown, requires upgrades and a specific copilot, and must also manage to get through the high evasion of a scout. Keep in mind this is done a ship designed for long range scanning and to use high mobility and speed to hunt down and destroy threats. A gunship has no prayer against anything that's managed to spot them.

Keep in mind what scouts can do, they get blaster overchage, and combined with sabotage probe can use bypass to utterly rip apart a strike fighter giving them almost no chance to react. The probe is also devastating when used around obstacles because often times it will cause the pilot to crash.

If people simply pay attention, use teamwork, and harass gunships they have trouble contributing anything to the battle.

It's not 3x as far, proton torpedoes have a range of 11.5km, heavy laser cannons achieve close to I think 8km range. A strike is capable of taking multiple hits from a railgun with directional shields. The one shot kill is on a 1 min cooldown, requires upgrades and a specific copilot, and must also manage to get through the high evasion of a scout. Keep in mind this is done a ship designed for long range scanning and to use high mobility and speed to hunt down and destroy threats. A gunship has no prayer against anything that's managed to spot them.

 

Keep in mind what scouts can do, they get blaster overchage, and combined with sabotage probe can use bypass to utterly rip apart a strike fighter giving them almost no chance to react. The probe is also devastating when used around obstacles because often times it will cause the pilot to crash.

 

If people simply pay attention, use teamwork, and harass gunships they have trouble contributing anything to the battle.

But who is willingly giving away cluster missles for a probe? Yeah, not many... Probe simply ain't that good outside of 1v1'ing someone...

But who is willingly giving away cluster missles for a probe? Yeah, not many... Probe simply ain't that good outside of 1v1'ing someone...

Um me, probe is amazing when used right. It's good for weakened ships because of 100% shield piercing, when you land it you have a good 7 seconds of pure uninterrupted blaster fire, potentially with bypass and overcharge. Clusters are mainly good when used in packs with other fighters cause they bounce off a strike's shields.

Screw 1-shotting Scouts with Bypass - I've been 1-shot on a Striker, with Large reactor, power to shields and reinforced armour. Granted, I pretty much gave the guy a clear shot at me, but this was kind of a "Wow, they can do that?" experience more than anything.

It's a crit with an upgraded slug railgun and bypass on.