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So the thread concluded with Sidious win. I haven't read all the posts so it makes me curious.

 

Can someone summarize the points regarding the following topic?

 

I always saw Revan, Bane, and Vader on equal footing due to their similarities and thought Vitiate was superior than Palpatine due to his relative strength.

 

I mean, Papatine is only 100/80 times stronger than Vader but Vitiate was able to kill 12 Dark Council members in a flash during the first purge of the council, and Reborn Revan(much stronger than former self) who fought against Satele, Marr, Nox or Wrath, and other powerful force users was clearly no match for Vitiate. In the expansion Nox says Revan was never a sith as powerful as him. Does that mean, uh, original Revan is like at least 12 times weaker than Vader since Vitiate killed 12 DC members in a moment but Vitiate still can't compete against Papatine? Are Yoda, Windu, and Luke who could fight against Palpatine capable of consuming the entire galaxy or killing 12 most powerful siths of the time in a flash? Vitiate supposedly defeated thousands of sith lords before consuming them with rituals, too.

 

I know Pal could create a force storm to engulf giant fleets and siphon power trillions of lives. Putting that aside, how does 'relative power comparison' between Palpatine and other characters make him superior? I'm sure this has been discussed and would appreciate if someone could explain this point.

 

To avoid flaming let's put it out there that I admit Pal is stronger. I just don't see him too far off in relative comparison. Vader is 80% of movie Pal(and was capable of killing Pal). If Vitiate is any weaker than that, Vader should also wield power to consume entire galaxy and that is just... laughable.

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So the thread concluded with Sidious win. I haven't read all the posts so it makes me curious.

 

Can someone summarize the points regarding the following topic?

 

I always saw Revan, Bane, and Vader on equal footing due to their similarities and thought Vitiate was superior than Palpatine due to his relative strength.

 

I mean, Papatine is only 100/80 times stronger than Vader but Vitiate was able to kill 12 Dark Council members in a flash during the first purge of the council, and Reborn Revan(much stronger than former self) who fought against Satele, Marr, Nox or Wrath, and other powerful force users was clearly no match for Vitiate. In the expansion Nox says Revan was never a sith as powerful as him. Does that mean, uh, original Revan is like at least 12 times weaker than Vader since Vitiate killed 12 DC members in a moment but Vitiate still can't compete against Papatine? Are Yoda, Windu, and Luke who could fight against Palpatine capable of consuming the entire galaxy or killing 12 most powerful siths of the time in a flash? Vitiate supposedly defeated thousands of sith lords before consuming them with rituals, too.

 

I know Pal could create a force storm to engulf giant fleets and siphon power trillions of lives. Putting that aside, how does 'relative power comparison' between Palpatine and other characters make him superior? I'm sure this has been discussed and would appreciate if someone could explain this point.

 

To avoid flaming let's put it out there that I admit Pal is stronger. I just don't see him too far off in relative comparison. Vader is 80% of movie Pal(and was capable of killing Pal). If Vitiate is any weaker than that, Vader should also wield power to consume entire galaxy and that is just... laughable.

 

Vader being 80% of Sidious only applies to ROTJ Sidious. Dark Empire Sidious is on an entirely different level. His powers in the force is a magnitude more powerful. Capable of releasing force storms that could annihilate starfleets and cover half a moon with very little setup time. Vader has nothing on DE Sidious. Luke Skywalker was the only one who could fight on equal footing with DE Sidious.

Edited by Rhyltran
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Vader being 80% of Sidious only applies to ROTJ Sidious. Dark Empire Sidious is on an entirely different level. His powers in the force is a magnitude more powerful. Capable of releasing force storms that could annihilate starfleets and cover half a moon with very little setup time. Vader has nothing on DE Sidious. Luke Skywalker was the only one who could fight on equal footing with DE Sidious.

 

 

I thought as much.

 

Is there any logical explanation for Sidious's hyper jump in power level from ROTJ to DE? Wasn't Vader the 'chosen one' who would supposedly destroy the sith and bring balance to the force? What do the facts that ROTJ Pal didn't actually die and his true body was weaker than his clone make the prophecy and Vader's position as the chosen one? It really doesn't make sense to me. Pal should have just killed himself and become a clone to wield insane power he displays in ROTJ.

 

two more question: Is Pal in ROTJ stronger than Vitiate? and if so, how?

 

Is Pal going to return in SW episode 7~9 to continue the clone storyline? Isn't that a bit... unlikley?

 

I'm not really going to dispute whatever you claim, because you and others clearnly know more than me who hasn't experienced any star wars lore outside of movies and SWTOR/KOTOR1,2.Consider me curious.

 

how you figure that?

and why do you figure the thread concluded at all?

or that it's supposed to conclude?

 

Because overwhelming majority are claiming that Pal is stronger from what I've seen and neither side is really successful in persuading the other\, resorting to one-liner mockeries and flamings, and a stalemate. Just look at last few pages and see if there is any decent discussion going on. As it seems to me the thread has run its course, unless of course, somebody on either side decides to actually debate instead of throwing flames at each other.

Edited by Highsis
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I thought as much.

 

Is there any logical explanation for Sidious's hyper jump in power level from ROTJ to DE? Wasn't Vader the 'chosen one' who would supposedly destroy the sith and bring balance to the force? What do the facts that ROTJ Pal didn't actually die and his true body was weaker than his clone make the prophecy and Vader's position as the chosen one? It really doesn't make sense to me. Pal should have just killed himself and become a clone to wield insane power he displays in ROTJ.

 

Basically, Palpatine had to perfect his use of Essence Transfer and had every intention of transferring to those clone bodies eventually. Also, during the time we don't see him, he is mastering the Dark Side and studying as much knowledge as he can get a hold of. The youthful body also helps with conjuring massive amounts of power.

 

Also, I believe the prophecy was successful. It says bring balance, which it did by killing Palpatine. Palpatine's death restored balance to the Force. I don't think him coming back did anything to the Force's balance, but Dark Empire was written before the Prequels came out so the writing process can be blamed for that if you want.

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two more question: Is Pal in ROTJ stronger than Vitiate? and if so, how?

 

Is Pal going to return in SW episode 7~9 to continue the clone storyline? Isn't that a bit... unlikley?

 

 

 

Because overwhelming majority are claiming that Pal is stronger from what I've seen and neither side is really successful in persuading the other\, resorting to one-liner mockeries and flamings, and a stalemate. Just look at last few pages and see if there is any decent discussion going on. As it seems to me the thread has run its course, unless of course, somebody on either side decides to actually debate instead of throwing flames at each other.

 

1. Yes, better feats

 

2. Probably not no, gonna be a new storyline entirely.

 

Sidious just has better feats than Vitiate, he's noted as the most powerful Sith Lord in history in quite a few sources, his Lighting has annihilated small armies, disintegrated beasts/people, he's choked/ragdolled powerful Force Users, he was able to come back from the void through sheer willpower and travel across half the galaxy to inbody one of his Inquisitors.

 

He has great foresight capability, he's drained planets passively without ritual or trinkets.

 

So on, so forth.

 

Oh, here are 4 respect threads for Palps going through TPM/ROTS/ROTJ and DE if you wanna have a look see..

 

TPM= http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/tpm-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/100444/

 

ROTS= http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/rots-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101088/

 

ROTJ= http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/rotj-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101094/

 

DE= http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/de-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101798/

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Basically, Palpatine had to perfect his use of Essence Transfer and had every intention of transferring to those clone bodies eventually. Also, during the time we don't see him, he is mastering the Dark Side and studying as much knowledge as he can get a hold of. The youthful body also helps with conjuring massive amounts of power.

 

Also, I believe the prophecy was successful. It says bring balance, which it did by killing Palpatine. Palpatine's death restored balance to the Force. I don't think him coming back did anything to the Force's balance, but Dark Empire was written before the Prequels came out so the writing process can be blamed for that if you want.

 

Thanks for explanation, but the prophecy bit is still non sensical.

 

have you played Skyrim?

 

 

 

If Dovahkiin had defeated world eater, then world eater had come back with more power to be defeated by others, the prophecy of Dovahkiin defeating world eater to save the world wouldn't make any sense.

 

 

 

What's the purpose of defeating a villain who disturbs the balance of force only to bring him back later with more power while you are dead? That's ridiculous from prophecy standpoint.

 

 

1. Yes, better feats

 

OK, you claim movie Sidious(not accounting DE) is more powerful than Vitiate.

 

Does that mean Vader who was 80% of ROTJ Sidious, Yoda and Windu who fought Sidious toe to toe are all stronger or about equally powerful as Vitiate, and are, force-wise, capable of consuming the entire galaxy via ritual if they had sith knowledge? Are they too capable of instantly killing 12 most powerful sith lords(DC members) in a flash even without flipping a finger? (12 DC members were killed the moment they entered Vitiate's domain, one of them forcefully teleported to torture chamber. Vitiate kills 9 DC member in the second purge, too.) And they are much more capable than killing thousands of sith lords on their own, since Vitiate did it before his ascension and rituals to consume their essence?

 

... Really? I said earlier I don't know much about Star Wars lore but honestly It makes me a bit skeptical without sufficient explanation. SIdious apparently does have incredible feat during movie time frame but it doesn't change the fact Vader was 80% of movie Sidious according to Lucas and Yoda and Windu weren't far off. That's just weird in my power balance head canon if Vitiate must be on par or less compared to Vader, Yoda, and Windu.

 

Thanks for the links btw.

Edited by Highsis
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Meh, I always saw episode 3 as bringing balance, before the EU shat all over it.

 

There were thousands of Jedi and two Sith, that's not balance. Vader brought it down to two Jedi and two Sith, but the EU changed that.

 

I guess the surviving Jedi counter Palpatine's dark side adepts, so yeh, still kinda balanced. Luke came Into what he was because Palpatine was getting too strong and Yoda was getting weak. Balance stayed In DE when Sidious and Luke were stalemates...

 

But a lot of other material kinda contradicts that. To be honest the prophecy is meaningless.

 

Edit: 20% is a lot. Imagine an average force user as 1. If Sidious is 100, Vader is 80. Much above average but still a lot less than Sidious. Vitiate could happily fit in around 90. A balance between Sidious and Vader, and a 10 point difference. 10 Average Jedi have summoned a wall of Light before, so the difference is huge from a force perspective, and helps to show that 20% is a wider gap than people think.

Edited by Selenial
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Thanks for explanation, but the prophecy bit is still non sensical.

 

have you played Skyrim?

 

 

 

If Dovahkiin had defeated world eater, then world eater had come back with more power to be defeated by others, the prophecy of Dovahkiin defeating world eater to save the world wouldn't make any sense.

 

 

 

What's the purpose of defeating a villain who disturbs the balance of force only to bring him back later with more power while you are dead? That's ridiculous from prophecy standpoint.

 

Well, yes, the whole prophecy thing is doesn't make that much sense from that standpoint. However, the prophecy is not to kill a specific person, but to restore balance. Palpatine's first death did restore balance (because he was maintaining the Dark Side's supremacy that was established by the Sith earlier), so one can say that the prophecy was fulfilled. His return most likely did not disrupt the balance, so the prophecy would remain fulfilled.

 

It's a confusing thing because the comic is so old.

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Does that mean Vader who was 80% of ROTJ Sidious, Yoda and Windu who fought Sidious toe to toe are all stronger or about equally powerful as Vitiate, and are, force-wise, capable of consuming the entire galaxy via ritual if they had sith knowledge? Are they too capable of instantly killing 12 most powerful sith lords(DC members) in a flash even without flipping a finger? (12 DC members were killed the moment they entered Vitiate's domain)

Yoda as Sith probably yes, I think I remember Dooku pondering somewhere what would happen should Yoda ever fall to the dark side. Windu really more so than being on Sidious' level dragged the latter down to his own through the use of Vapaad.

 

Also, Vader being 80% doesn't tell us that much. No estimates were given on the others. It could well be Vitiate is 97% and Yoda 92%, but we'll never know, and as Selenial said, 20% can mean a world of difference.

Edited by Darkelefantos
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Meh, I always saw episode 3 as bringing balance, before the EU shat all over it.

 

There were thousands of Jedi and two Sith, that's not balance. Vader brought it down to two Jedi and two Sith, but the EU changed that.

 

I guess the surviving Jedi counter Palpatine's dark side adepts, so yeh, still kinda balanced. Luke came Into what he was because Palpatine was getting too strong and Yoda was getting weak. Balance stayed In DE when Sidious and Luke were stalemates...

 

But a lot of other material kinda contradicts that. To be honest the prophecy is meaningless.

 

I think the prophecy suffers from not being fully explained. Balance in the Force wasn't really explained in the movies. They just said he'd bring the Force back into balance.

 

Though, to be honest, you're looking at it from a numbers perspective. I'm not entirely sure numbers really matter because the Darth Plagueis novel states that the Sith supplanted the Light with the Dark, even though there were more Jedi than there were Sith.

 

It's all so confusing.

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Well, yes, the whole prophecy thing is doesn't make that much sense from that standpoint. However, the prophecy is not to kill a specific person, but to restore balance. Palpatine's first death did restore balance (because he was maintaining the Dark Side's supremacy that was established by the Sith earlier), so one can say that the prophecy was fulfilled. His return most likely did not disrupt the balance, so the prophecy would remain fulfilled.

 

It's a confusing thing because the comic is so old.

 

According to Lucas destruction of Sith is what brings balance to the force, not balance between Jedi and Sith; Jedi represents balance in the force and sith vice versa. If Vader had not completely defeated Sidious he did not, by definition, fulfill the prophecy nor is he the chosen. But he is chosen by canon. This is a contradiction.

 

Isn't plot integrity very important for 3rd party works in order to authenticate their credibility? For DE and EU stories to have legitimacy(or rather, public confidence) they need to be in line with the movie canon. I know how Mass Effect: Deception was bombarded by fans for its inconsistency from the game canon and Bioware had to promise they will fix the errors. if another novel is given to 3rd party by subcontract and in that novel r2d2 emerges as the most powerful force user after his alteration to use force, I doubt if that kind of inconsistency can be accepted even if it's official.

 

Is Vader the chosen who failed to become the chosen? ... it makes my head spin. On extension, should I take all EU staff as 100% legit? I hope others see that this is a valid concern from me.

Edited by Highsis
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According to Lucas destruction of Sith is what brings balance to the force. If Vader had not completely defeated Sidious he did not, by definition, fulfill the prophecy nor is he the chosen. But he is chosen by canon. This is a contradiction.

 

Isn't plot integrity very important for 3rd party works in order to authenticate their credibility? For DE and EU stories to have legitimacy(or rather, public confidence) they need to be in line with the movie canon. I know how Mass Effect: Deception was bombarded by fans for its inconsistency from the game canon and Bioware had to promise they will fix the errors. if another novel is given to 3rd party by subcontract and in that novel r2d2 emerges as the most powerful force user after his alteration to use force, I doubt if that kind of inconsistency can be accepted even if it's official.

 

Is Vader the chosen who failed to become the chosen? ... it makes my head spin. On extension, should I take all EU staff as 100% legit? I hope others see that this is a valid concern from me.

 

Like I said, the prophecy wasn't created when Dark Empire was written, so it is entirely theoretical on my part. However, I believe there is a statement saying that Vader did fulfill the prophecy in Return of the Jedi.

 

But like I said, Palpatine's Dark Shroud probably fell away on his first death. He was dead for quite some time after all.

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Vader being 80% of Sidious only applies to ROTJ Sidious. Dark Empire Sidious is on an entirely different level. His powers in the force is a magnitude more powerful. Capable of releasing force storms that could annihilate starfleets and cover half a moon with very little setup time. Vader has nothing on DE Sidious. Luke Skywalker was the only one who could fight on equal footing with DE Sidious.

 

Last I checked it applies to Vader Period. Vader at max was 80% Sidious at max from what I understand.

 

But as people have said 20% can be fairly large, HOWEVER, to the question do I think Yoda could have defeated the 12 dark Council Members in a Flash? yes.... Windu? Maybe. Vader, in a flash probably not, but defeated all 12 at the same time, sure its not beyond Vader's capacity.

 

Has every name that's been uttered here essentially been an incredibly powerful. Yes. I honestly put Bane far below the likes of both Revan AND Vader, as Bane came from a time when the Sith had lost a lot of power. Zannah I thought was more powerful, and while other apprentices may have been weaker, the culmination of Sidious from Bane's rule of 2 and Vader litterally being Sidious "greatest monster" and "greatest Jedi killer of all time" especially when he uses the techniques OF the Jedi to be a Jedi Killer tells you just how strong Vader is. So can Vader defeat 12 council members? I think so.

 

Could Luke (who is even more powerful then even DE Sidious) absolutely.

 

 

Could Vader consume galaxies? with out a ritual, no Neither could Vitiate or any other sith for that matter. With a proper Ritual, maybe, but he has never been one for to much in the ways of Sith magic. But as has been explained before, an Sorcerer is not automatically stronger then a Warrior. Is Vitiate stronger then Vader, EXTREMELY LIKELY. as was said 20% is a fair gap.

Edited by tunewalker
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Does that mean Vader who was 80% of ROTJ Sidious, Yoda and Windu who fought Sidious toe to toe are all stronger or about equally powerful as Vitiate, and are, force-wise, capable of consuming the entire galaxy via ritual if they had sith knowledge? Are they too capable of instantly killing 12 most powerful sith lords(DC members) in a flash even without flipping a finger? (12 DC members were killed the moment they entered Vitiate's domain, one of them forcefully teleported to torture chamber. Vitiate kills 9 DC member in the second purge, too.) And they are much more capable than killing thousands of sith lords on their own, since Vitiate did it before his ascension and rituals to consume their essence?\

 

Windu is a superior lightsaber combatant to Vitiate, Force wise? Not so much, Vader, Yoda and Sidious are superior to him in the TK department. Force Lighting, obviously only Sidious is above him in that. All of them are superior saber combatants, that's a given though.

 

If they extensively studied Sith knowledge and knew the mechanics of the ritual and the like?...Yes they would be able to, provided they have the right resources, Rituals don't really need to have the User being all powerful, there are examples of lesser Force Users doing powerful rituals, although can't recall any examples.

 

Kill them? Yeah, as I recall those Dark Council members don't really have any feats that are impressive, they just died. Sure they were noted as powerful, but in the grand scheme that doesn't mean much when there are other characters who are noted as powerful too, Vader, Yoda/Mace being noted rather as some of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in SW mythos.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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It's a joke. :rolleyes:

yea right :rolleyes:

 

 

neither side is really successful in persuading the other\, resorting to one-liner mockeries and flamings, and a stalemate. Just look at last few pages and see if there is any decent discussion going on. As it seems to me the thread has run its course

 

how does any of this translate in your head to the thread having run it's course? shall i also dress up in a suit and have a clean shave while you are at it :rak_03:

Edited by Kaedusz
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Last I checked it applies to Vader Period. Vader at max was 80% Sidious at max from what I understand.

 

But as people have said 20% can be fairly large, HOWEVER, to the question do I think Yoda could have defeated the 12 dark Council Members in a Flash? yes.... Windu? Maybe. Vader, in a flash probably not, but defeated all 12 at the same time, sure its not beyond Vader's capacity.

 

Has every name that's been uttered here essentially been an incredibly powerful. Yes. I honestly put Bane far below the likes of both Revan AND Vader, as Bane came from a time when the Sith had lost a lot of power. Zannah I thought was more powerful, and while other apprentices may have been weaker, the culmination of Sidious from Bane's rule of 2 and Vader litterally being Sidious "greatest monster" and "greatest Jedi killer of all time" especially when he uses the techniques OF the Jedi to be a Jedi Killer tells you just how strong Vader is. So can Vader defeat 12 council members? I think so.

 

Could Luke (who is even more powerful then even DE Sidious) absolutely.

 

 

Could Vader consume galaxies? with out a ritual, no Neither could Vitiate or any other sith for that matter. With a proper Ritual, maybe, but he has never been one for to much in the ways of Sith magic. But as has been explained before, an Sorcerer is not automatically stronger then a Warrior. Is Vitiate stronger then Vader, EXTREMELY LIKELY. as was said 20% is a fair gap.

 

It isn't. The 80% came from Lucas who said by Return of the Jedi Vader was about 80% of Sidious. Ergo he was 80% of Sidious at ROTJ. Dark Empire Sidious is stronger than ROTJ Sidious.

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It isn't. The 80% came from Lucas who said by Return of the Jedi Vader was about 80% of Sidious. Ergo he was 80% of Sidious at ROTJ. Dark Empire Sidious is stronger than ROTJ Sidious.

 

Last I checked, yes it came from Lucas, but he didnt say "RotJ Vader, vs RotJ Emperor" he said "Anakin had the potential to be 200% of what Sidious would become, but in the end with his limbs lost he only became 80% of Palpatine"

 

While Lucas MAY have MEANT RotJ vs RotJ he also doesnt consider anything else in Star Wars to be cannon any way, so DE Sidious doesnt exist, however Sidious would still be "most powerful sith of all time"

 

If we take canon as what we know as canon AND Lucas's statement which is talking both characters at their max, then Vader was still 80% DE Emperor.

 

So no Vader is 80% of Sidious... period. Respect the Vader.

Edited by tunewalker
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To clear it up...

 

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor."

 

- Taken from Vanityfair, Star Wars: The Last Battle, Page 3 Paragraph 2

 

So yeah, 80% of Sidious.

 

Although considering ROTJ is Vader's peak, it is probably just meaning Sidious as ROTJ. DE Sidious is more powerful.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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