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Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)

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Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)

ShenLongKazama's Avatar


ShenLongKazama
06.18.2013 , 11:20 AM | #101
Interesting read, and OP i agree with you. I did not find any information stating that Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord ever. I couldn't statements of George himself either. It's pretty obvious that Vitiate is far more powerful than Sidious, however, Prime Sidious was probably capable of fighting Vitiate equally. By the way, these statements that by people, saying "OOOHHHH you are no Star wars fan" IS DAMN ********!!! Retcon happens, and it happened. Nobody i asked was able to give me information about Sidious being the most powerful. And for all people who are that stupid, George Lucas has actually stated, the movies were his vision and he accepts additions in the Expanded Universe. Some people will probably flame me but before you cannot show me a 100% proof that Sidious was stated as the most powerful Sith Lord ever, AFTER the release of SW:TOR, than pls **** and ****.
空の、エンター∑ザ∑ボイドと風になる
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.18.2013 , 11:28 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by ShenLongKazama View Post
Interesting read, and OP i agree with you. I did not find any information stating that Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord ever. I couldn't statements of George himself either. It's pretty obvious that Vitiate is far more powerful than Sidious, however, Prime Sidious was probably capable of fighting Vitiate equally. By the way, these statements that by people, saying "OOOHHHH you are no Star wars fan" IS DAMN ********!!! Retcon happens, and it happened. Nobody i asked was able to give me information about Sidious being the most powerful. And for all people who are that stupid, George Lucas has actually stated, the movies were his vision and he accepts additions in the Expanded Universe. Some people will probably flame me but before you cannot show me a 100% proof that Sidious was stated as the most powerful Sith Lord ever, AFTER the release of SW:TOR, than pls **** and ****.
To quote myself:

"Well this is very interesting, because I never took much note of these quotes concerning Vitiate in the SWTOR Encyclopedia.

Regardless the fact remains that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history according to G-Canon. Now I'm not sure if a statement was ever made by George Lucas himself but I expect there was. Why? Because of the wealth of source books that state that this is the case. Sourcebooks which are defined as G-Canon. To quote a few:
Quote:
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

--Taken from Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm
Now you are probably thinking that this conflicts with the SWTOR Encyclopedia but it does not. Why? Time period. The context in which the statements about Vitiate being the most powerful Force user in history are set in the Old Republic era. Effectively meaning that Vitiate is the most powerful Force user in history up until this point. Likewise the statements above are made in the context of Sidious' time period, which comes after Vitiate's. This therefore means that Sidious canonically outranks Vitiate.

However, what is does mean is that Vitiate can hold a candle to Sidious and then some, which some people don't seem to want to believe. It also means that canonically Vitiate is more powerful than the likes of Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Nomi Sunrider, Thon etc. Which is very enlightening indeed."

Retcons happen yes, but as of yet Leland Chee - the Keeper of the Holocron - has made no such statement so we have to hold the above statements as still valid, regardless of when the books were printed.

Either way, I do not believe there is a conflict in canon here.

ShenLongKazama's Avatar


ShenLongKazama
06.18.2013 , 11:33 AM | #103
So you're basically saying, they are equals?
空の、エンター∑ザ∑ボイドと風になる
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.18.2013 , 11:37 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by ShenLongKazama View Post
So you're basically saying, they are equals?
No, I'm saying that before Sidious came along, Vitiate was the most powerful Force user the galaxy had ever seen. But then Sidious came along and outclassed him, effectively taking the title.

Nevertheless if the two ever engaged in a battle, it would be fierce to say the least.

ShenLongKazama's Avatar


ShenLongKazama
06.18.2013 , 11:44 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
No, I'm saying that before Sidious came along, Vitiate was the most powerful Force user the galaxy had ever seen. But then Sidious came along and outclassed him, effectively taking the title.

Nevertheless if the two ever engaged in a battle, it would be fierce to say the least.
The books you mentioned, were probably released BEFORE the SWTOR Encyclopedia, so i still think Vitiate is more powerful. However, while Vitiate being more powerful, he'd eventually still lose. He was more of a monster, Sidious on the other hand had great intellect and was cunning. Sidious has gathered tons of knowledge about the force and could bring up a plan to defeat Vitiate. So in my opinion it's

In power: Vitiate > Palpatine

But the one who would win the fight would probably be Sidious.
空の、エンター∑ザ∑ボイドと風になる
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S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
06.18.2013 , 11:47 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well lets be clear that Nyriss was only able to kill Meetra and Scourge after they she had defeated them in a pitched battle. So not sure what the relevance is their.
Once again, it is a scripted fight; Nyriss wanted to find out what Scourge was up to, so when she reached his position, she realized that Scourge had betrayed her after she saw Meetra with him. She was now up against two powerful individuals, so she decided not to give them the opportunity to strike at her first and she comfortably disarmed them after a pitched battle. Now she had ample time to gather sufficient power to utterly destroy them but by then Revan interfered.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
And while I see what your saying concerning the duel with the Sith Emperor I would disagree. 'One-shooting' Revan would amount to this. Those guys weren't even able to get close to the Emperor. Revan on the other hand was not only able to get close but reflects his bolts of lightning back at him. I mean, the very fact that Scourge recieved visions in which the Sith Emperor died would imply the stakes were far higher than you think. (I think we are forgetting how Meetra almost killed the Emperor.)
Revelation:

Spoiler


If T3-M4 had not interfered, Revan would have been utterly destroyed by this single attack. Prior to this, Tenebrae was toying with him; after getting some taste of his own medicine, he realized that Revan had become very powerful and he should be dealt with accordingly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Regardless, it could be argued that Vitiate was not well prepared for that confrontation. Though he was no more prepared for the Jedi strike team.
Makes sense; he had invested his powers to strengthening his minions; he had made his Imperial Guard virtually immune to Force powers when they were fighting Revan and his allies.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But anyway, you claim "Tenebrae have canonically demonstrated such capability; their is no room for argument anymore." - care to elaborate? I can think of no instance when the Sith Emperor has performed anything that Sidious would not be able to counter.
Their is no form of defensive application I am aware of which can withstand the mysterious power that Tenebrae unleashed on the whole Dark Council led by Darth Lokess. I mean, they were Dark Councilors and supposed to be extraordinarily well-versed in the dark arts. Regardless, of power, Sidious had possessed biological hosts/clones and their is a limit to how much biological bodies can be protected with the Force. Even Abeloth could not make her hosts immune, regardless of her enormous power.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Enslaving the minds of 8,000 Sith Lords? I think Sidious, who has manipulated the minds of billions and completely dominated the mind of Luke Skywalker, would be able to resist such an attack. After all Revan and the Hero of Tython were able to. And the visions of Scourge would suggest Meetra could too.
Enslaving the minds of billions of "mooks" may look impressive on sheer scale but it is the "powerful individuals" that pose real challenge to effectiveness of mental powers. Analogy: you may dominate ants but not a Lion.

Also, Sidious broke Luke after defeating him in single combat. I have sources with me. Also, Tenebrae have broken both Revan and HoT with his mental powers; Revan broke free completely after (unexpectedly) undergoing mindwipe from the Jedi Council and HoT broke free from help of Orgus Din' spirit. Since both Revan and HoT were immensely talented Force-users themselves, they managed to develop defensive capabilities to boost their chances to endure mental bombardment from Tenebrae in the future. Telepathic powers are just one of the options; Tenebrae knows a lot about the dark side and he have many many options under his disposal to subdue his opponents; he packed some extremely potent capabilities in this aspect. Keep in mind that much of his dark side talents are still shrouded in mystery. Case in point is the mysterious power which he used to purge his first Dark Council. As pointed out in the essay, he had reached a condition (like Sidious did) where possibilities for him were endless.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Absorbing the life force of said Sith Lords and the planet they inhabited? This is largely irrelevant as he did so with the aid of the Sith previously mentioned.
They were pawns in the game. His signature was the largest and dwarfed all others since only he survived and all others perished. Keep in mind that he had planned to create enormous (unnatural) reserves of energies for himself which he would feed upon to artificially prolong his life and prevent deterioration caused by prolonged dark side practices. Those 8000 Sith Lords were sweet honey for him.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Destroying the entire Dark Council possibly through manipulation of the weather? Well as I have explained that feat only proves him capable of 'one-shoting' a single DC member as because they were caught by surprise, they were unable to combine their power. This is supported by the fact that Revan, who proved himself stronger than the average DC member, was not overwhelmed in a similar manner.
It is (not) manipulation of weather; it is a mysterious power that we do not know much about. It might be one of the most potent options among Tenebrae's arsenal and could be unleashed once he would be absolutely ready for huge odds. Tenebrae possibly had some time at his disposal to prepare himself for this kind of assassination attempt (half hour or something?). He doesn't needs significant time to amp himself to such a level though as apparent from his second purge attempt.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Likewise Sidious could resist such an attack, and would probably preempt it given his remarkable ability in precognition.
If Sidious was supposedly "all-knowing" then why the hell he miscalculated his chances against Luke and Leia?

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Subduing a Jedi strike team with a storm of Force lightning? Well only one of them was a Jedi Master and only one of them (the Hero of Tython) was renowned for his combat abilities, and he had yet to reach the pinnacle of his power. I'm sure Sidious would have little trouble defending against such an attack and would likely blast Vitiate back with his own more powerful lightning.

And that's about it.
You should focus on canonical descriptions:

Spoiler


Spoiler


Also, HoT's victory is circumstantial:

Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
The fight is obviously circumstantial. Sith Emperor had commenced his ultimate plan to destroy the entire Galaxy and he invested his powers in a ritual of such scope. This was the right opportunity to strike at him; Lord Scourge set the stage for this event.

When HoT arrived, Sith Emperor was not in the position to dominate him with his powers this time since he needed time to disengage from the ritual and revitalize his power. Not to forget, Beren'thor also struck another blow to Sith Emperor during this time by killing his First Son who planned to destroy the Jedi Order from within and aid Sith Emperor in his super-ritual.

Also, being most powerful does not makes you invincible or unstoppable; sometimes, a character is in the zone or fully prepared and sometimes vulnerable. Their are many examples:-

- Luke and Leia subdued Sidious
- Meetra and Visas subdued Nihilus
- Satele and Mace subdued Malgus
- Luke subdued Abeloth
- Obi-Wan subdued Anakin
- Meetra subdued Traya

So battles in Star Wars are never black and white.

You are forgetting the fact that Sith Emperor had one-shotted the entire Jedi Strike Team (HoT included) earlier. During this battle, Sith Emperor was free and had not invested his energies anywhere. I hope this clarifies the situation.
No doubt that HoT also wields immense power and he is seemingly incredibly skilled fighter; possibly rivals Luke in skill. However, he does not matches Tenebrae in power and it is obvious from this encounter that the Sith Lord wasn't properly prepared for combat this time because he had significantly invested his powers in other areas during this time. Since Tenebrae was vulnerable, he went to the Dark Temple to commence his Galaxy-busting ritual; that place was the safest bet. However, HoT is a "champion of light" and he managed to do the impossible (the Force is with him now). As evident from the cut-scenes in this duel, Tenebrae was not in the condition to unleash his most potent powers during this fight due to obvious reasons described earlier.
My favorite Star Wars book: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

My favorite Star Wars character: Vitiate

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.18.2013 , 11:58 AM | #107
Hero of Tython equal to Luke? Yeah, right.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
06.18.2013 , 12:08 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Hero of Tython equal to Luke? Yeah, right.
Key word is "skill" and not "power." He may not be as powerful but he is mastering the Force nonetheless.
My favorite Star Wars book: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

My favorite Star Wars character: Vitiate

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
06.18.2013 , 12:10 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
Key word is "skill" and not "power." He may not be as powerful but he is mastering the Force nonetheless.
I doubt HoT could rival Luke in any fashion, to be honest. We all know what Luke can do.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
06.18.2013 , 12:12 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I doubt HoT could rival Luke in any fashion, to be honest. We all know what Luke can do.
Well, only time will tell.

However, HoT's accomplishments are remarkable as well. The game doesn't gives us much impression but canonically he have dealt with "impossible odds."
My favorite Star Wars book: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

My favorite Star Wars character: Vitiate