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Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.05.2015 , 04:29 PM | #761
Quote: Originally Posted by Highsis View Post
I thought as much.

Is there any logical explanation for Sidious's hyper jump in power level from ROTJ to DE? Wasn't Vader the 'chosen one' who would supposedly destroy the sith and bring balance to the force? What do the facts that ROTJ Pal didn't actually die and his true body was weaker than his clone make the prophecy and Vader's position as the chosen one? It really doesn't make sense to me. Pal should have just killed himself and become a clone to wield insane power he displays in ROTJ.
Basically, Palpatine had to perfect his use of Essence Transfer and had every intention of transferring to those clone bodies eventually. Also, during the time we don't see him, he is mastering the Dark Side and studying as much knowledge as he can get a hold of. The youthful body also helps with conjuring massive amounts of power.

Also, I believe the prophecy was successful. It says bring balance, which it did by killing Palpatine. Palpatine's death restored balance to the Force. I don't think him coming back did anything to the Force's balance, but Dark Empire was written before the Prequels came out so the writing process can be blamed for that if you want.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.05.2015 , 04:41 PM | #762
Quote: Originally Posted by Highsis View Post

two more question: Is Pal in ROTJ stronger than Vitiate? and if so, how?

Is Pal going to return in SW episode 7~9 to continue the clone storyline? Isn't that a bit... unlikley?



Because overwhelming majority are claiming that Pal is stronger from what I've seen and neither side is really successful in persuading the other\, resorting to one-liner mockeries and flamings, and a stalemate. Just look at last few pages and see if there is any decent discussion going on. As it seems to me the thread has run its course, unless of course, somebody on either side decides to actually debate instead of throwing flames at each other.
1. Yes, better feats

2. Probably not no, gonna be a new storyline entirely.

Sidious just has better feats than Vitiate, he's noted as the most powerful Sith Lord in history in quite a few sources, his Lighting has annihilated small armies, disintegrated beasts/people, he's choked/ragdolled powerful Force Users, he was able to come back from the void through sheer willpower and travel across half the galaxy to inbody one of his Inquisitors.

He has great foresight capability, he's drained planets passively without ritual or trinkets.

So on, so forth.

Oh, here are 4 respect threads for Palps going through TPM/ROTS/ROTJ and DE if you wanna have a look see..

TPM= http://www.comicvine.com/profile/sho...thread/100444/

ROTS= http://www.comicvine.com/profile/sho...thread/101088/

ROTJ= http://www.comicvine.com/profile/sho...thread/101094/

DE= http://www.comicvine.com/profile/sho...thread/101798/
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Highsis's Avatar


Highsis
01.05.2015 , 06:48 PM | #763
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Basically, Palpatine had to perfect his use of Essence Transfer and had every intention of transferring to those clone bodies eventually. Also, during the time we don't see him, he is mastering the Dark Side and studying as much knowledge as he can get a hold of. The youthful body also helps with conjuring massive amounts of power.

Also, I believe the prophecy was successful. It says bring balance, which it did by killing Palpatine. Palpatine's death restored balance to the Force. I don't think him coming back did anything to the Force's balance, but Dark Empire was written before the Prequels came out so the writing process can be blamed for that if you want.
Thanks for explanation, but the prophecy bit is still non sensical.

have you played Skyrim?

Spoiler


What's the purpose of defeating a villain who disturbs the balance of force only to bring him back later with more power while you are dead? That's ridiculous from prophecy standpoint.


Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
1. Yes, better feats
OK, you claim movie Sidious(not accounting DE) is more powerful than Vitiate.

Does that mean Vader who was 80% of ROTJ Sidious, Yoda and Windu who fought Sidious toe to toe are all stronger or about equally powerful as Vitiate, and are, force-wise, capable of consuming the entire galaxy via ritual if they had sith knowledge? Are they too capable of instantly killing 12 most powerful sith lords(DC members) in a flash even without flipping a finger? (12 DC members were killed the moment they entered Vitiate's domain, one of them forcefully teleported to torture chamber. Vitiate kills 9 DC member in the second purge, too.) And they are much more capable than killing thousands of sith lords on their own, since Vitiate did it before his ascension and rituals to consume their essence?

... Really? I said earlier I don't know much about Star Wars lore but honestly It makes me a bit skeptical without sufficient explanation. SIdious apparently does have incredible feat during movie time frame but it doesn't change the fact Vader was 80% of movie Sidious according to Lucas and Yoda and Windu weren't far off. That's just weird in my power balance head canon if Vitiate must be on par or less compared to Vader, Yoda, and Windu.

Thanks for the links btw.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
01.05.2015 , 06:52 PM | #764
Meh, I always saw episode 3 as bringing balance, before the EU shat all over it.

There were thousands of Jedi and two Sith, that's not balance. Vader brought it down to two Jedi and two Sith, but the EU changed that.

I guess the surviving Jedi counter Palpatine's dark side adepts, so yeh, still kinda balanced. Luke came Into what he was because Palpatine was getting too strong and Yoda was getting weak. Balance stayed In DE when Sidious and Luke were stalemates...

But a lot of other material kinda contradicts that. To be honest the prophecy is meaningless.

Edit: 20% is a lot. Imagine an average force user as 1. If Sidious is 100, Vader is 80. Much above average but still a lot less than Sidious. Vitiate could happily fit in around 90. A balance between Sidious and Vader, and a 10 point difference. 10 Average Jedi have summoned a wall of Light before, so the difference is huge from a force perspective, and helps to show that 20% is a wider gap than people think.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.05.2015 , 06:54 PM | #765
Quote: Originally Posted by Highsis View Post
Thanks for explanation, but the prophecy bit is still non sensical.

have you played Skyrim?

Spoiler


What's the purpose of defeating a villain who disturbs the balance of force only to bring him back later with more power while you are dead? That's ridiculous from prophecy standpoint.
Well, yes, the whole prophecy thing is doesn't make that much sense from that standpoint. However, the prophecy is not to kill a specific person, but to restore balance. Palpatine's first death did restore balance (because he was maintaining the Dark Side's supremacy that was established by the Sith earlier), so one can say that the prophecy was fulfilled. His return most likely did not disrupt the balance, so the prophecy would remain fulfilled.

It's a confusing thing because the comic is so old.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Darkelefantos's Avatar


Darkelefantos
01.05.2015 , 06:56 PM | #766
Quote: Originally Posted by Highsis View Post
Does that mean Vader who was 80% of ROTJ Sidious, Yoda and Windu who fought Sidious toe to toe are all stronger or about equally powerful as Vitiate, and are, force-wise, capable of consuming the entire galaxy via ritual if they had sith knowledge? Are they too capable of instantly killing 12 most powerful sith lords(DC members) in a flash even without flipping a finger? (12 DC members were killed the moment they entered Vitiate's domain)
Yoda as Sith probably yes, I think I remember Dooku pondering somewhere what would happen should Yoda ever fall to the dark side. Windu really more so than being on Sidious' level dragged the latter down to his own through the use of Vapaad.

Also, Vader being 80% doesn't tell us that much. No estimates were given on the others. It could well be Vitiate is 97% and Yoda 92%, but we'll never know, and as Selenial said, 20% can mean a world of difference.
This place has been an empty wasteland for a long time. No longer.

"In a world without gold, we might've been heroes!"

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.05.2015 , 06:58 PM | #767
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Meh, I always saw episode 3 as bringing balance, before the EU shat all over it.

There were thousands of Jedi and two Sith, that's not balance. Vader brought it down to two Jedi and two Sith, but the EU changed that.

I guess the surviving Jedi counter Palpatine's dark side adepts, so yeh, still kinda balanced. Luke came Into what he was because Palpatine was getting too strong and Yoda was getting weak. Balance stayed In DE when Sidious and Luke were stalemates...

But a lot of other material kinda contradicts that. To be honest the prophecy is meaningless.
I think the prophecy suffers from not being fully explained. Balance in the Force wasn't really explained in the movies. They just said he'd bring the Force back into balance.

Though, to be honest, you're looking at it from a numbers perspective. I'm not entirely sure numbers really matter because the Darth Plagueis novel states that the Sith supplanted the Light with the Dark, even though there were more Jedi than there were Sith.

It's all so confusing.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Highsis's Avatar


Highsis
01.05.2015 , 07:03 PM | #768
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Well, yes, the whole prophecy thing is doesn't make that much sense from that standpoint. However, the prophecy is not to kill a specific person, but to restore balance. Palpatine's first death did restore balance (because he was maintaining the Dark Side's supremacy that was established by the Sith earlier), so one can say that the prophecy was fulfilled. His return most likely did not disrupt the balance, so the prophecy would remain fulfilled.

It's a confusing thing because the comic is so old.
According to Lucas destruction of Sith is what brings balance to the force, not balance between Jedi and Sith; Jedi represents balance in the force and sith vice versa. If Vader had not completely defeated Sidious he did not, by definition, fulfill the prophecy nor is he the chosen. But he is chosen by canon. This is a contradiction.

Isn't plot integrity very important for 3rd party works in order to authenticate their credibility? For DE and EU stories to have legitimacy(or rather, public confidence) they need to be in line with the movie canon. I know how Mass Effect: Deception was bombarded by fans for its inconsistency from the game canon and Bioware had to promise they will fix the errors. if another novel is given to 3rd party by subcontract and in that novel r2d2 emerges as the most powerful force user after his alteration to use force, I doubt if that kind of inconsistency can be accepted even if it's official.

Is Vader the chosen who failed to become the chosen? ... it makes my head spin. On extension, should I take all EU staff as 100% legit? I hope others see that this is a valid concern from me.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.05.2015 , 07:06 PM | #769
Quote: Originally Posted by Highsis View Post
According to Lucas destruction of Sith is what brings balance to the force. If Vader had not completely defeated Sidious he did not, by definition, fulfill the prophecy nor is he the chosen. But he is chosen by canon. This is a contradiction.

Isn't plot integrity very important for 3rd party works in order to authenticate their credibility? For DE and EU stories to have legitimacy(or rather, public confidence) they need to be in line with the movie canon. I know how Mass Effect: Deception was bombarded by fans for its inconsistency from the game canon and Bioware had to promise they will fix the errors. if another novel is given to 3rd party by subcontract and in that novel r2d2 emerges as the most powerful force user after his alteration to use force, I doubt if that kind of inconsistency can be accepted even if it's official.

Is Vader the chosen who failed to become the chosen? ... it makes my head spin. On extension, should I take all EU staff as 100% legit? I hope others see that this is a valid concern from me.
Like I said, the prophecy wasn't created when Dark Empire was written, so it is entirely theoretical on my part. However, I believe there is a statement saying that Vader did fulfill the prophecy in Return of the Jedi.

But like I said, Palpatine's Dark Shroud probably fell away on his first death. He was dead for quite some time after all.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
01.05.2015 , 07:19 PM | #770
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Vader being 80% of Sidious only applies to ROTJ Sidious. Dark Empire Sidious is on an entirely different level. His powers in the force is a magnitude more powerful. Capable of releasing force storms that could annihilate starfleets and cover half a moon with very little setup time. Vader has nothing on DE Sidious. Luke Skywalker was the only one who could fight on equal footing with DE Sidious.
Last I checked it applies to Vader Period. Vader at max was 80% Sidious at max from what I understand.

But as people have said 20% can be fairly large, HOWEVER, to the question do I think Yoda could have defeated the 12 dark Council Members in a Flash? yes.... Windu? Maybe. Vader, in a flash probably not, but defeated all 12 at the same time, sure its not beyond Vader's capacity.

Has every name that's been uttered here essentially been an incredibly powerful. Yes. I honestly put Bane far below the likes of both Revan AND Vader, as Bane came from a time when the Sith had lost a lot of power. Zannah I thought was more powerful, and while other apprentices may have been weaker, the culmination of Sidious from Bane's rule of 2 and Vader litterally being Sidious "greatest monster" and "greatest Jedi killer of all time" especially when he uses the techniques OF the Jedi to be a Jedi Killer tells you just how strong Vader is. So can Vader defeat 12 council members? I think so.

Could Luke (who is even more powerful then even DE Sidious) absolutely.


Could Vader consume galaxies? with out a ritual, no Neither could Vitiate or any other sith for that matter. With a proper Ritual, maybe, but he has never been one for to much in the ways of Sith magic. But as has been explained before, an Sorcerer is not automatically stronger then a Warrior. Is Vitiate stronger then Vader, EXTREMELY LIKELY. as was said 20% is a fair gap.