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Enough with the insane slows/roots and extreme mobility. Enough is Enough.


septru

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Welcome to Desync Wars The Old Republic. Unranked is literally unplayble for many years but peple eating this from day to day only because this is Star Wars. So no need to do anything if everything fine and cash is flowing.

 

Tbh I doubt it's the subs making cash flow steadily, probably the 30$ lightsaber skin on the CM tho...

 

But I do agree that this game needs either a big optimization patch, or a rework of all the root/slows/speed buffs, along many other things that needs to be removed in PvP.

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Tbh I doubt it's the subs making cash flow steadily, probably the 30$ lightsaber skin on the CM tho...

SWTOR has made almost a billion dollars

https://massivelyop.com/2019/11/01/swtor-has-made-almost-a-billion-dollars-and-ea-is-pleased-most-pleased/

 

in that case BW have zero motivation to change something

Edited by PrivateerArris
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SWTOR has made almost a billion dollars

https://massivelyop.com/2019/11/01/swtor-has-made-almost-a-billion-dollars-and-ea-is-pleased-most-pleased/

 

in that case BW have zero motivation to change something

 

Do not forget that the money isn't reinvested into BW directly. The money they make is earned by EA, which choose what they'll do with it. Tbh I expect that most of the money made from swtor goes into financing other SW titles like Fallen Order instead of being reinvested into the game, or at least into the dev team.

 

Poor guys must be 20 in the office to work on a mmo, must be tough. :rak_03:

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  • 1 year later...

good read! I was looking up "countermeasures" for my attempt at a concealment op and stumbled across this post.

 

notice it's an OPERATIVE main complaining about the ridiculousness of movement buffs and immunities. that ought to be all the proof you need that this stuff needs to be reworked. an op who can roll, dodge, sap, stun, and just root you w/o turning around w/o gaining resolve! even THAT op is like "hey. BW, can we talk?"

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good read! I was looking up "countermeasures" for my attempt at a concealment op and stumbled across this post.

 

notice it's an OPERATIVE main complaining about the ridiculousness of movement buffs and immunities. that ought to be all the proof you need that this stuff needs to be reworked. an op who can roll, dodge, sap, stun, and just root you w/o turning around w/o gaining resolve! even THAT op is like "hey. BW, can we talk?"

 

What’s sad is this was a 2019 thread and it’s now 2021 and nothing has changed. If anything it’s gotten worse and so has the Desync. And on top of everything they’ve added in an extra slow for ball carriers in HB. So much so that it’s nearly impossible to run the ball now. So people have resorted to even more DMing instead.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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Enough is enough! This is getting ridiculous.

 

Bioware has been buffing mobility since 3.0. Snipers have gotten roll, holotraverse, countermeasures speed, entrench speed. Mara predation was buffed from 25% to 50%. Pt's hydrolics got buffed. Lightning sorc's force speed CD was reduced, every heal now gives them increased speed, certain abilities give them increased speed..... holotraverse...

 

To fix this Bioware is now buffing the amount of slows and roots in the game. Pts got a 90% slow on shatterslug. Sorcs slow and root you to 90% every time they cast chain lighting. They even created tacticals that spread slow and give two charges to slows.

 

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

 

The game can't handle all this movement change. Every time a mara predations my FPS drops 20 frames, and everyone starts dsyncing. Every time a sorc chain lightnings he disappears. Every time an operative rolls he dsyncs.

 

You buffed movement too much. You can not fix that by implementing more slows, like you have done. Instead just nerf the movement abilities or take them out of the game. As an operative I am either eternally rooted, eternally slowed, or rolling. As a PT if I am not moving with speed hacks on (hyrdolic overirdes), I am moving at 20% speed. I am either all over my target, or no where near my target. There is no in between anymore. THIS IS DUMB. ITS MAKING THE GAME UNPLAYABLE. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

Nerf OP concealment roll Immunity or nerf their set bonus with 2x 4 sec stuns and -2 sec on roll cd.

Nerf guardian tank with grit teeth and force bound.

Notice I do not include whole class I include specs.

OP concealment roll Immunity is broken and we all know that!

Guardian Tank has way too much dmg with amount of CCs and survivability they have.

They need to fix these then we talk about rest of classes and their movement speeds/escapes and so on.

Edited by DrRepulsor
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What’s sad is this was a 2019 thread and it’s now 2021 and nothing has changed. If anything it’s gotten worse and so has the Desync. And on top of everything they’ve added in an extra slow for ball carriers in HB. So much so that it’s nearly impossible to run the ball now. So people have resorted to even more DMing instead.

 

not only that, but with the new brackets, all the low level players are being stunned to death, literally.....

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Nerf OP concealment roll Immunity or nerf their set bonus with 2x 4 sec stuns and -2 sec on roll cd.

Nerf guardian tank with grit teeth and force bound.

Notice I do not include whole class I include specs.

OP concealment roll Immunity is broken and we all know that!

Guardian Tank has way too much dmg with amount of CCs and survivability they have.

They need to fix these then we talk about rest of classes and their movement speeds/escapes and so on.

 

The HOTS need to go back to being healer spec only, the roll immunity needs to go and roll itself needs to go back to its original design of costing energy with the shorter roll range, especially since now they have basically a leap skill as well. There's no reason for roll to have the buff ranged it has.

 

Also, bring back shoot first with the knockdown stun. Old school scrapper was so much more fun than rolly polly scrapper.

 

Force bound is fine.

 

Grit teeth is definitely broken.

 

Honestly guardian tank damage isn't all that crazy. They have one big hit move and they kinda do nothing in between that 1 skill. Its all fluff damage.

Edited by Raansu
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The HOTS need to go back to being healer spec only, the roll immunity needs to go and roll itself needs to go back to its original design of costing energy with the shorter roll range, especially since now they have basically a leap skill as well. There's no reason for roll to have the buff ranged it has.

 

roll is bad for the game and should be replaced entirely.

 

but can someone explain how ops ever received a friendly target teleport (holotraverse doubles as intercede)? they aren't tanks. they don't have a taunt. they're either melee dps or heals (by definition ranged). it's like giving them a free escape just cuz or giving them another way to break HB maps. roll is far more important of an "issue," but I really have to wonder at the rationale for giving ops a friendly teleport. are stealth, flash, and lolroll not already the best possible escapes in the game?

Edited by CheesyEZ
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roll is bad for the game and should be replaced entirely.

 

but can someone explain how ops ever received a friendly target teleport (holotraverse doubles as intercede)? they aren't tanks. they don't have a taunt. they're either melee dps or heals (by definition ranged). it's like giving them a free escape just cuz or giving them another way to break HB maps. roll is far more important of an "issue," but I really have to wonder at the rationale for giving ops a friendly teleport. are stealth, flash, and lolroll not already the best possible escapes in the game?

 

roll is the most fundamental skill ops have. to say it shouldn't be in the game is akin to claiming force leap shouldn't be in the game for warriors. in essence, if "roll is bad for the game", all you're really saying is that ops are bad for the game and shouldn't be in it. tbh, i think they're fine, ops have their strengths and weaknesses same as any other class.

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roll is the most fundamental skill ops have. to say it shouldn't be in the game is akin to claiming force leap shouldn't be in the game for warriors. in essence, if "roll is bad for the game", all you're really saying is that ops are bad for the game and shouldn't be in it. tbh, i think they're fine, ops have their strengths and weaknesses same as any other class.

 

I might be wrong, but I don’t think he’s suggesting they lose an ability, just that that it’s replaced with one that the game engine can handle and doesn’t cause huge desync problems.

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roll is the most fundamental skill ops have. to say it shouldn't be in the game is akin to claiming force leap shouldn't be in the game for warriors. in essence, if "roll is bad for the game", all you're really saying is that ops are bad for the game and shouldn't be in it. tbh, i think they're fine, ops have their strengths and weaknesses same as any other class.

 

Superman has a weakness. You handing out kryptonite?

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Why is this old thread turning into a #nerfoperatives meme? :rolleyes:

 

L2P

 

 

No seriously, L2P!

 

Seriously, you want one class to have:

  1. Stealth
  2. Leap
  3. Heals
  4. Great DPS
  5. Mobility
  6. Reflect at 150% incoming damage
  7. 2 Hard Stuns

 

...all at the same time? That's some serious entitlement.

 

Someone else, who will remain unnamed, would like us to believe that operatives have weaknesses. To what? Electronet?

 

Operatives have LITERALLY no weaknesses. Or to be more precise, Concealment has no weaknesses. For the health of the game they need to be adjusted to be more in line with the rest of the classes.

 

The man who frequently runs tournaments has operatives separated from every other class because HE KNOWS that the class is leagues better than every other class in ability.

 

Operatives need to be depowered a bit for the health of the game. I suspect the reason people don't complain about it often is because it is simply howling at the moon.

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I'm going to chime in here because I've been brought up a couple times both in this thread and the other thread as reasoning to "nerf operative." And while I do believe operatives should be nerfed, I don't agree with a lot of what is said here on the forums about the reasons why and how they should be nerfed...

 

1) When I initially wrote this thread, most of my complaints were focused and still are focused on off the GCD extreme movement enhancing abilities. These abilities include forcespeed, 75% hydrolics, 70% predation, phantomstride/holotraverse etc. These abilities are different from on the GCD movement enhancing abilities like operative roll because (and this is a big distinction) off the GCD movement enhancing abilities allow players to enhance their speed while continuously attacking, while on the GCD movement enhancing abilities forces a player to sacrifice their globals on enhancing their speed rather than attacking. This is not to say that on the GCD movement enhancing abilities increase dsync and fps drops more than off the GCD movement enhancing abilities - both on and off the GCD movement enhancing abilities cause dsync - but a player that dsyncs due to a on the GCD ability can continuously attack you while you can't attack them, but a player that dsyncs due to a on the GCD ability cannot attack you while dsyncing. This of course doesn't account for those unfortunately increasingly common times when players will dsync for a whole 5 seconds.

 

TLDR? I get why people complain about roll. I really do. Operatives roll is on a really short CD, the immunity is OP, and everytime they roll (which is a lot) they dsync. I get it. But I'd rather have an operative roll and dsync than a sorc or pt dsync, because operatives who dsync aren't doing anything to you but sorcs/pts that dsync are gonna be attacking you the whole time while you can't attack them back.

 

2)

roll is the most fundamental skill ops have.

 

Basically what this guy said. Nerfing movement enhancing abilities for other classes is relatively simple. Most of the time it's just about nerfing the utility that buffs the speed or reduces the CD on the ability. But nerfing operative roll is extremely difficult especially since it's literally concealment's only defensive cooldown. With that said I do think there are ways to nerf roll. Bioware really screwed up in 6.0 with the creation of "charges." I won't go into detail here because it's a whole nother story, but Bioware's charges system basically can let good operatives roll 3 times in a matter of 5 seconds.... Anyways, nerfing roll is not as simple as nerfing other movement enhancing abilities.

 

3) Concealment operative is a strong class. In the hands of good players it is, yes, almost unkillable. But, and I'm sorry if this offends people, 90% of the players that play concealment operative in regs are utter garbage. If you're playing regs and having trouble with concealment operatives then maybe stop going to the forums to QQ about it and just get better. You can beat 90% of the concealment operatives in regs by just practicing and learning.

 

4) I and many other people that host tournaments separate and place limitations on operatives because operatives pose unfair advantages in tournament settings. These settings are frequently 1v1 or 2v2 environments. This is not the same as pvp instances that are 4v4 and 8v8 settings. Operatives are extremely strong in 1v1s, not so strong in 8v8s. Don't conflate the way we balance operatives in tournaments and the way operatives should be balanced in regular PvP. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

 

All of this is not to say that I don't think operatives should be nerfed. They should. But not for the reasons and not the way that the people on the forums say they should. I think the insane mobility and CC creep is a much larger issue that is even more important to PvP than balancing operatives. And more precisely, I think the problems tied to concealment ops are symptom of the more pervasive, fundamental issues of dsync.

Edited by septru
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All of this is not to say that I don't think operatives should be nerfed. They should. But not for the reasons and not the way that the people on the forums say they should. I think the insane mobility and CC creep is a much larger issue that is even more important to PvP than balancing operatives. And more precisely, I think the problems tied to concealment ops are symptom of the more pervasive, fundamental issues of dsync.

 

^word.

 

I'd also add that super predation would be fine if it were tied to carnage and there wasn't a skill to make it FREE every 30s. taking away the tradeoff or the decision making about how to use your stacks seriously dumbs down the game and seriously increases the speed of everyone on the map. edit: I remember playing ranked WZs and we would go out of our way to make room for a combat sent and then we'd carefully strategize when he would sacrifice his stack for a speed buff. that was fun and it made the map obstacles relevant. we needed him at the start of CW, to swap sides in VS, to move the ball in the pit.

 

phasewalk is a well and good ability, and a very necessary one in arenas, but it literally breaks WZs like VS and CW b/c it allows sorcs completely circumvent barriers designed to make it take longer to move from one section of the map to another. and it's no coincidence that those barriers/WZs were created long before abilities like PW existed.

 

likewise, roll + holotraverse turns any HB, but especially the pit, into a mockery (between desync, holotraverse, and the slightest differential in ping).

 

fundamental WZ mechanics are rendered moot. it's probably easier to redesign/rethink movement abilities than it is to rewrite half the WZs, but that's where we are, imo.

Edited by CheesyEZ
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Seriously, you want one class to have:

  1. Stealth
  2. Leap
  3. Heals
  4. Great DPS
  5. Mobility
  6. Reflect at 150% incoming damage
  7. 2 Hard Stuns

 

...all at the same time? That's some serious entitlement.

 

Someone else, who will remain unnamed, would like us to believe that operatives have weaknesses. To what? Electronet?

 

Operatives have LITERALLY no weaknesses. Or to be more precise, Concealment has no weaknesses. For the health of the game they need to be adjusted to be more in line with the rest of the classes.

 

The man who frequently runs tournaments has operatives separated from every other class because HE KNOWS that the class is leagues better than every other class in ability.

 

Operatives need to be depowered a bit for the health of the game. I suspect the reason people don't complain about it often is because it is simply howling at the moon.

 

you may want to be more specific. since you're not being specific a lot of what you're stating is incorrect. what you're actually trying to reference is concealment/scrapper, not operatives in general. even considering that, a lot of your points are not necissarily true.

 

1. yes

 

2. yes

 

3. yes

 

4. no. lethality has great overall damage but it doesn't have the survivability that you're all attributing to operatives in general, which is actually just concealment. concealment on the other hand, has good burst, but has trash overall damage. at least compared to the other burst damage specs.

 

5. have you ever even played operative? operatives have one of the worst, if not the worst amount of mobility in the game. even roll with immunity can't make up for it and that's only possible on concealment. lethality and medicine dont have roll immunity, and you wouldn't even want to take the "hit and run" utility unless you're playing concealment either.

 

in short, in comparison to other classes/specs regarding mobility (if we can consider marauder with pred to be a 10), concealment with hit and run and roll immunity is like a 5. lethality and medicine are like a 2.

 

6. blow for blow is just a utility.

 

7. two stuns... again only for concealment, and only with debilitators set.

 

your list of what makes operatives so "OP" looks quite sparse once you actually critique it. only 3 of the points you made are actually factual and relevant.

 

also,

If you're playing regs and having trouble with concealment operatives then maybe stop going to the forums to QQ about it and just get better. You can beat 90% of the concealment operatives in regs by just practicing and learning.

^ this

 

i also don't know why everyone on the forums is always so heated about bioware never reading their "suggestions". i have no doubt they do read all these posts. in fact, i bet they come here all the time and use all the "suggestions" to determine exactly what they should never do, because 98% of the posts on here are just people raging about things in game that they dont understand.

Edited by zerkington
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operatives are the top offender of extreme mobility. I think everyone has experienced the desync when an operative rolls on a ramp and disappears for a time and he didnt stealth.

 

If you are an operative and you are losing in 1 on 1, you need top stop fighting like rank and pve where you lean on others to take someone down. Operatives are the top class in 1 on 1. You're the top dog in 1 on 1 of any class. You guys can take out more specs than anyone.

 

I agree about the whole movement thing. Operatives are the worse in this regard. They dont have to rely on movement

skill since they have an ability that moves them every 12 secs? Set the refresh for 45 secs like jug dash and operatives would be fix.

 

If my jug has a 12 sec dash, hell, I'd call it a defining ability of the class too. Not to mention I'd call it over powered.

Lets give them immunity from damage for a second after dash too to top it off.

 

I get why operatives want to keep their top dog status and they don't want anyone messing with their roll because of it, but how long have you had this status? Pretty much the whole time the game was up?

 

Regardless how you feel the class would be ruined if you increase the cooldown of roll, time for you to take the hit like others classes have with patches and they'e still around. Time to give another class a turn at being top dog.

Edited by eiekal
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because operatives who dsync aren't doing anything to you but sorcs/pts that dsync are gonna be attacking you the whole time while you can't attack them back.

I don't know where you get that from, I've been killed by invisible, untargettable dsynced ops

 

it's literally concealment's only defensive cooldown.

Apart from evasion with its 150% reflect and reduced cd and vanish/sap/heal

 

In the hands of good players it is, yes, almost unkillable

stop going to the forums to QQ about it and just get better.

Pick an opinion.

 

This is not the same as pvp instances that are 4v4 and 8v8 settings.

Most warzones become a series of running 1v1 and 2v2s. Arenas are stun sequencing.

 

 

Conc ops need to face harder choices between offense and defense

Edited by Bullyabass
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The worse part of it is its an ability that moves the operative and the operative doesn't have to rely on their movement skills like other classes have too. What is roll? On a 12 second cooldown I mean? The movement ability for jug is dash and its on a 45 second cooldown.

 

The primary jugg gap closer is force leap. Force leap has a 15 sec cooldown. With the the first tier utility (Warmonger) you can reduce the CD on force leap to about 5 seconds. If you are playing vengence, everytime you jump you get a 20% movement speed increase, 20% DR, and 3 second immunity to roots, slows, and hardstuns. Add that to enrage movement speed, jump resest with force push, and a 30 meter root from vicious slow and juggs have an awesome mobility kit to help kite.

 

I recommend you practice all of these tools. As a jugg, you can easily reach a second, third, and even fourth ED with a healer, tank, or any other form of peels as long as you are using your mobility to kite. I am no expert, but if you need more help with mobility on jugg feel free to reach out to me or look at these helpful guides for beginners::

 

 

Pick an opinion.

 

You missed a whole lot in that quote bud. Here, let me help you out and quote my whole comment.

 

Concealment operative is a strong class. In the hands of good players it is, yes, almost unkillable. But, and I'm sorry if this offends people, 90% of the players that play concealment operative in regs are utter garbage. If you're playing regs and having trouble with concealment operatives then maybe stop going to the forums to QQ about it and just get better. You can beat 90% of the concealment operatives in regs by just practicing and learning.

 

 

Next time, maybe try not selectively selectively pick and choose the words in a quote. You might make a whole lot more sense and earn yourself some credibility, instead of essentially lying to make a self serving point.

Edited by septru
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Next time, maybe try not selectively selectively pick and choose the words in a quote. You might make a whole lot more sense and earn yourself some credibility, instead of essentially lying to make a self serving point.

 

I don't think the guy you're arguing with is correct, but it doesn't take a very high skill ceiling at all to be a pest in regs. you don't even have to kill anything. the mobility + immunity + cc is kind of absurd on these node capture maps. and the desync in HB is just...jfc, bw. really?

 

but imo, they need to revamp the class entirely b/c roll is so obviously vital to all 3 specs, but it's also too much for the objective maps. you'd be the expert about arenas, but they don't look special in arenas at all to me. when you roll, you're not fighting. so long as an opponent doesn't throw his burst into your roll, it's no big deal. class stacking is an issue, but that's not an op issue per se. however, it's especially an issue in WZs right now, b/c 2 and sometimes 3 ops rolling around are an absurd wrecking ball. again, not an ops per se issue, but there's also a reason so many ppl are "rolling" them in regs.

 

edit: i quoted the wrong thing. was going for the quote within the quote.

Edited by CheesyEZ
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operatives are the top offender of extreme mobility. I think everyone has experienced the desync when an operative rolls on a ramp and disappears for a time and he didnt stealth.

 

If you are an operative and you are losing in 1 on 1, you need top stop fighting like rank and pve where you lean on others to take someone down. Operatives are the top class in 1 on 1. You're the top dog in 1 on 1 of any class. You guys can take out more specs than anyone.

 

I agree about the whole movement thing. Operatives are the worse in this regard. They dont have to rely on movement

skill since they have an ability that moves them every 12 secs? Set the refresh for 45 secs like jug dash and operatives would be fix.

 

If my jug has a 12 sec dash, hell, I'd call it a defining ability of the class too. Not to mention I'd call it over powered.

Lets give them immunity from damage for a second after dash too to top it off.

 

I get why operatives want to keep their top dog status and they don't want anyone messing with their roll because of it, but how long have you had this status? Pretty much the whole time the game was up?

 

Regardless how you feel the class would be ruined if you increase the cooldown of roll, time for you to take the hit like others classes have with patches and they'e still around. Time to give another class a turn at being top dog.

 

you can complain all you want, with your false comparisons. fact is ops were already nerfed, if anything does happen in the near future they are more likely to be buffed than nerfed. although there will likely be some other class/specs that will get nerfed soon. toodles.

Edited by zerkington
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you can complain all you want, with your false comparisons. fact is ops were already nerfed, if anything does happen in the near future they are more likely to be buffed than nerfed. although there will likely be some other class/specs that will get nerfed soon. toodles.

 

Boy, you just LOVE ignoring that desync issue, don’t you? It’s been brought up in literally every discussion about Operatives, and every time you pop up, it’s “Operatives are bad, I can kill them all day, desync is fake news, stop crying, GiT gUd NoOb”. Face it. Operatives need to be tweaked. Multiple people have echoed this sentiment. You’re one of like two or three people who believe otherwise, and all of you are consistently, objectively wrong.

 

If Operatives have been nerfed, it was before 6.0 and it was virtually unnoticeable. Hit ‘em again, I say. And this time, make it count.

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