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SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
11.29.2021 , 02:03 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
So, Steve, what studio do you work for?
I'm Steve, but you quoted Kael. Which of us are you talking to?

To answer your question, I'm a developer (for more than thirty years), but not a *game* developer. I could have pursued an opportunity at Eidos back at the end of 2008, but they were looking for developers who were also football (soccer) fans, which I'm not. (Er, because they were recruiting for a football management sim...)

I could probably have faked it well enough to get the job, but feeling uneasy about the dishonesty implied, combined with not really wanting to deal with hardcore footie fans (I enjoy watching football, but not in any sort of hardcore-fan way) in my job, meant that I decided not to pursue it.

I'm still torn about that decision.(1) You know, thirteen years later. Think about that for a moment.
Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
I'm not a game dev, but I've been around since 1982 playing computer games.
The first computer games I played would have been in 1980, maybe 1979. In the end, all that say is that we are, both of us, old farts.

(1) It's one of those "If you do it, you *might* regret it, but if you don't do it, you will *absolutely*for*sure* regret it" things, except that I hadn't quite worked out that that sort of thing existed back then.
Something you find difficult is a lesson on how to play better, not a punishment for playing badly.
To go to Belsavis, you must go to Belsavis.
Latest patch notes at http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes

Dein_Cathair's Avatar


Dein_Cathair
11.29.2021 , 09:53 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
I'm Steve, but you quoted Kael. Which of us are you talking to?

To answer your question, I'm a developer (for more than thirty years), but not a *game* developer. I could have pursued an opportunity at Eidos back at the end of 2008, but they were looking for developers who were also football (soccer) fans, which I'm not. (Er, because they were recruiting for a football management sim...)

I could probably have faked it well enough to get the job, but feeling uneasy about the dishonesty implied, combined with not really wanting to deal with hardcore footie fans (I enjoy watching football, but not in any sort of hardcore-fan way) in my job, meant that I decided not to pursue it.

I'm still torn about that decision.(1) You know, thirteen years later. Think about that for a moment.

The first computer games I played would have been in 1980, maybe 1979. In the end, all that say is that we are, both of us, old farts.

(1) It's one of those "If you do it, you *might* regret it, but if you don't do it, you will *absolutely*for*sure* regret it" things, except that I hadn't quite worked out that that sort of thing existed back then.
I was talking to you.

You have to understand.... Forums are for constructive criticism, not rants. That was my first lesson from a CM in 1998 (Leilo aka Susan Kath)

Many games do not have open public test servers, I never saw one in my time at WoW, except for the closed beta.
Most will not have them up and running 24/7 for months without a wipe as I encountered with UO in the last century. They had a dedicated community of game developers playing their test server at the time.
So be happy that you were given a glimpse.

Test servers are almost always empty. People do not have the time to spend there and on production servers.
I was lucky back when they were testing the group finder and actually ran several flashpoints.

Back when I played LOTRO, I was able to get into almost every test server as I was a forum poster and they took cfare of me as I followed rule 1 (constructive criticism)

Just ranting because they closed off the PTS isn''t helpful. It has an actual purpose and that was achieved as they closed it.
Because you saw many unfinished aspects does not mean that they are not actually finished. Many companies do not share content before launch for the reasons I described previously and for others such as not feeding the trolls whose only goal is disruption.

KaellSolaris's Avatar


KaellSolaris
11.30.2021 , 09:01 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
I'll go through the list of what is wrong with what you are saying.
Feel free to state your opinion, but donít burst in outrage if we donít agree on something, we can have different opinion, no one need to blow up Alderaan.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
1. EA is known as a studio killer, if they're screwing up, not making money they fire the employees and or do odd things to the company. Can you say Origin???? Read Richard Garriott's book (he and I follow each other on Twitter) and many others, plus the founder of ID, etc, etc, etc
I donít see in what I said was wrong.
it was a rhetorical question: how far are you willing to tolerate an unfinished product based on a universe of which you are a fan?
it is question without right or wrong answer because the answer depends on the tolerance of every person.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
2. Do you realize how quickly you can add/subtract from a modern game engine?
I've used Unreal Engine, I can tell you firsthand that you can do a ton very quickly!
Do you realize all engines are not the same? It is like comparing an electric engine to a combustion engine, both do the same thing, not in the same way.
Unreal is a very used up to date engine, with a lot of resources, and people working with it and is MADE for anybody to create a project easily.
SWTOR is based on a heavily modified version of the hero engine, which mean you are on your own, no support, no update and more important: very few people with a deep knowledge on it.
Both canít be compared.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
3. Sometimes it's better to keep the cat in the bag rather than show the players what is going to happen.
Show me the plan and I can modify my current playstyle to make a ton of in game money in the expansion.
I came back to SWTOR with 5m and lvl 50-55 chars. Ten 75's now, all 306, and closing in on a billion creds.
I fail to see how I can make money with in-game features like outfit designer or loadouts who are just a multi-spec can make me do a ton of money, itís not like we could gain anything from it Ö almost everyone knows a class who have access to furtivity can cheese many parts of the game, and it is not a secret that we can switch between advance classes with loadout.
If they do not want us to see or test some feature, why not blocking access to the tab? or display a message saying ďnot available for this PTS ď, Instead of putting a ďWIPĒ tag on almost every screen?
Unfinished aspect of a feature should not be available because when you see how far it is from completion, you begin to doubt their ability to deliver a finished product, also the sheer number of bugs present on pts for feature we were supposed to test were not encouraging at all.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
4. The SWTOR devs know that if they are screwing up, they can and will be fired by EA management.
Do you really think they want to lose their jobs?
Most people donít want to lose their job, but the responsibility of the devs is to deliver what their management team ask them to produce, they are not free to do what they want in the game, development cost dans duration are parameters who are to be taken in account during projects, especially when the deadline is closing in, and in most case it is the manager who are in trouble if things go south.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
You have to understand.... Forums are for constructive criticism, not rants.
But you also have to understand that sometimes you need to raise your voice because your constructive feedback has no answer and is not taken into account.
When you spend time testing and making feedback, but nothing change and silence is your only answer, you feel like raising your voice.
Forums are also a place for exchange with the team of the game, but if the team doesnít answer or acknowledge our issues then you have to rant a little to be heard.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
Ö for others such as not feeding the trolls whose only goal is disruption.
Then there are a lot of troll, because not a lot of people is happy with the current state of 7.0, having faith in a company is one thing, being blind to the issues is another, it is sad you havenít been on PTS so you did not saw anything they shared with us, but feel free to open a post on December 15 with all the good point and issue you have with the released of the game.

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
11.30.2021 , 10:09 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
Many games do not have open public test servers, I never saw one in my time at WoW, except for the closed beta.
Most will not have them up and running 24/7 for months without a wipe as I encountered with UO in the last century. They had a dedicated community of game developers playing their test server at the time.
So be happy that you were given a glimpse.
Wheee! Test servers should look more ... finished ... that this round of PTS was. Previous PTS rounds (notably for 6.0, for the Swoop racing(1), etc.) seemed way more finished than this round. They asked us to test the levelling experience, and I did, and it sucked in various ways, in part because the feature was clearly not ready to be tested.

(1) See e.g. https://www.swtor.com/community/show...74#post9842574 for my first commentary on that. The Swoop stuff was *much* nearer to finished than 7.0 felt.
Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
Test servers are almost always empty. People do not have the time to spend there and on production servers.
Duh. I wasn't there to test group activity, so I can't comment on how that worked this time around in PTS.
Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
Just ranting because they closed off the PTS isn''t helpful.
Except that I wasn't ranting, or even commenting quietly, about that.
Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
Because you saw many unfinished aspects does not mean that they are not actually finished. Many companies do not share content before launch for the reasons I described previously and for others such as not feeding the trolls whose only goal is disruption.
BioWare generally keeps *story* content to itself during PTS rounds, but functional stuff like e.g. how the levelling experience works should be closer to finished-looking than this round was.
Something you find difficult is a lesson on how to play better, not a punishment for playing badly.
To go to Belsavis, you must go to Belsavis.
Latest patch notes at http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes

DWho's Avatar


DWho
11.30.2021 , 02:09 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Dein_Cathair View Post
Because you saw many unfinished aspects does not mean that they are not actually finished. Many companies do not share content before launch for the reasons I described previously and for others such as not feeding the trolls whose only goal is disruption.
Bioware is unfortunately not like many companies. Their track record as far as the PTS goes has been very consistent. What you see in the final PTS build is what goes live with a few minor updates (one needs only look back to 6.0 where they were rushing through hot fixes the first couple of weeks after release to fix issues that had been brought up on the PTS weeks earlier). To have the core of the game, leveling, be in as bad of shape as it was on the PTS should be embarrassing to the Devs. Even the flagship "update" for 7.0, Combat Styles, wasn't working right during the leveling process. What Steve said is right, it is one thing to have a few minor things (as well as story which would spoil the expansion) not working on the last PTS build, it is quite another for core systems to not be working right (or even close to right in many instances). There is really no point in asking for feedback if what is being evaluated isn't mostly the way it is intended to launch.

It's fine to be hopeful that what was on the PTS was not representative of what will launch in 2 weeks but that has not been Bioware's track record so far. This is why a lot of people who have been around this game for years are uneasy about the launch of 7.0.

Jedi_riches's Avatar


Jedi_riches
12.01.2021 , 04:19 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
Wheee! Test servers should look more ... finished ... that this round of PTS was. Previous PTS rounds (notably for 6.0, for the Swoop racing(1), etc.) seemed way more finished than this round. They asked us to test the levelling experience, and I did, and it sucked in various ways, in part because the feature was clearly not ready to be tested.
Yeah, the two big things for this patch is combat styles and loadouts, from what I saw on the PTS switching styles was buggy and you had issues activating trainers and loadouts was never available to test at all. Its possible that they fixed it but it would have been much better if the players had more rigorously tested a more complete version.

That not even mentioning that weapons in weapon outfitter was never seen either.
How PvP balance is achieved - Bioware please nerf paper its OP, scissors are fine as they are.
Regards,
Rock