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Disappointed with "Echoes of Oblivion" (yet not surprised)


ruffolofi

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Once again it feels like the player character is just a side kick or a passenger or worst... a passive observer. What happened to being able to make choices in this game? This story update is going to be almost exactly the same for each and every character.

 

Feeling like your choices and actions don't really matter anymore is something that has been going on for a while now but I think this latest update is the worst example of it. Sure, it was nice to see Valkorion again and the graphics were beautiful, but from a Bioware game I would expect... more (or I once did).

 

Something that I have loved about SWTOR is how it has felt like it's your characters story... but now it hasn't felt like that in a while and it feels disconnecting. Like why do I even care about what happens when all the freedom of being able to control my character and the choices they make is being taken away?

 

Just my thoughts.

 

(Also, why do you have to bring back my favorite character just to force me to kill him, again? Vitiate/Valkorion/Tenebrae deserved better!)

Edited by ruffolofi
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Overall I thought it was very good.

 

The only thing I just find confusing is that we end up on Odessen after the "dream"-sequence with Satele and then its just... over? It felt very disconnected in the end. Also why do we end up with Lana on the shuttle and not with Kira (if we romance her) when she is clearly one of the main part of the "chapter"? I hope she doesn't end up being irrelevant again after that rather "short" chapter like the rest of our companions.

Edited by Jesseriah
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Overall I thought it was made very good.

 

The only thing I just find confusing is that we end up on Odessen after the "dream"-sequence with Satele and then its just... over? It felt very disconnected in the end. Also why do we end up with Lana on the shuttle and not with Kira (if we romance her) when she is clearly one of the main part of the "chapter"? I hope she doesn't end up being irrelevant again after that rather "short" chapter like the rest of our companions.

 

Indeed. I've yet to play the Mandalorian flashpoint but I was also confused about the sudden disappearance of Kira and Scourge. They had a whole year to make this update so you would expect it to be a bit better.

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I just wanted to be able to make choices like you used to be able to do in this game. Like maybe you could choose between three options:

 

1. Kill the Emperor

2. Enslave the Emperor's spirit with the holocron (or eat him if SI) like he did to Lord Dramath

3. Betray your allies and help the Emperor possess Satele Shan

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I just wanted to be able to make choices like you used to be able to do in this game. Like maybe you could choose between three options:

 

1. Kill the Emperor

2. Enslave the Emperor's spirit with the holocron (or eat him if SI) like he did to Lord Dramath

3. Betray your allies and help the Emperor possess Satele Shan

 

Why would you help him:rak_02:

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He's the most powerful being in the Galaxy. Someone like the Sith Inquisitor might think that life is simply more interesting with him around.

 

That still doesn't make any sense, he already tried to possess you once. Again, why would you willingly help him after that:rak_02: It would be like helping Darth Zash take over you.

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That still doesn't make any sense, he already tried to possess you once. Again, why would you willingly help him after that:rak_02: It would be like helping Darth Zash take over you.

 

Well, my SI let Zash keep her new body. Same could be done with Valkorion - he can keep Satele Shan for all my Inquisitor cares. It's like killing two flies with one swat. He doesn't care what the Emperor might do once his power comes back - he's confident he can beat him again if necessary as he has already done so more than once... so why not?

 

And that's only one example. Other characters could have different motives. The point is, the player should be able to make the choice. Even if helping the Emperor turns out to be a bad idea. Choices & consequences.

Edited by ruffolofi
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Well, my SI let Zash keep her new body. Same could be done with Valkorion - he can keep Satele Shan for all my Inquisitor cares. It's like killing two flies with one swat. He doesn't care what the Emperor might do once his power comes back - he's confident he can beat him again if necessary as he has already done so more than once... so why not?

 

And that's only one example. Other characters could have different motives. The point is, the player should be able to make the choice. Even if helping the Emperor turns out to be a bad idea. Choices & consequences.

 

Unfortunately, our characters have Plot Armor. (People often complain about NPCs having Plot Armor, but really, PCs have it too.) No matter how "in character" it might be, our characters kinda have to stick around, so the devs won't let them do anything so stupid that it would guarantee their demise. Ex: no matter how in character it may be, your PC can't choose to join someone who wants to destroy the entire Galaxy including our player characters.

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Unfortunately, our characters have Plot Armor. (People often complain about NPCs having Plot Armor, but really, PCs have it too.) No matter how "in character" it might be, our characters kinda have to stick around, so the devs won't let them do anything so stupid that it would guarantee their demise. Ex: no matter how in character it may be, your PC can't choose to join someone who wants to destroy the entire Galaxy including our player characters.

 

But they could find a way around it... if they don't want to bring Valkorion back then they could say his power is so weakened after the reassembly (or whatever it's called) that after possessing Satele Shan he disappears from known Galaxy for the time being to gather his strength and plot his vengeance.

 

Or after betraying your allies to help Valkorion he immediately turns against you and you're forced to fight him after all, all alone this time. I would be fine with that too - because it would have still been mine and my characters choice to make, our mistake, instead of being given no choice at all.

Edited by ruffolofi
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I'm saying this because I think there is fair criticisms to be had of the new update. If people like the update great but to me it was really disappointing. It felt more fanservice than real story progression. Really it is the same as the last chapter of KOTET only with different set design nothing new is added that is of any substance.

 

It's also more of a Jedi Knight ending than any other class and I know people will say emperor is JK story but it went beyond that with the expansions and became the outlanders story no matter what class you were. Kotet fit the ending just fine not perfect sure but better than this.

 

Bringing Revan back was also tiresome. I love him but let him rest.

 

Vitiate is dug up to be killed again for absolutely no reason other than "go team go" power at the end. It made him feel very weak as a character compared to being a genuinely threat to all life as he did before. It was a childish "you pay for your crimes" gang up and "we have the force at our backs so we're better" it was silly. This being was the most evil and dangerous thing in the galaxy and I'm to believe it was all the magical power of teamwork destroyed him :rolleyes:

 

Which brings me to this point. It is all so rushed, maybe this could have worked if better executed. Characters just show up with out letting us know why or how. They become pointless cameos. At least give more explanation to it. I thought Vaylin was hinting at something when she said "I wouldn't be here if he hadn't dragged me along"

The writers need to do better than that to explain why everyone shows up . They came just to kill the emperor is not good enough. It's lazy.

We need more ,why was all the people he killed there are they memories or spirit etc

 

Also extra characters that come with you. Kira and Scourge were adamant this was a bad idea. I took the risk and for what, nothing. There was no jeopardy, no consequence I was actually questioning should I bring them but nope it's fine. I thought it be interesting if one of them got Tenebrae's plague but nope not really a plague and no risk to any character either.

 

My character really felt useless in this and took a huge step back to be honest, so passive didn't even get to make a fun darkside or lightside choice. Character's achievement of being the one to kill Tenebrae felt undermined too.

 

It also ended abruptly would have been nice to talk to Kira and Scourge at the end or anything just not to end so flat.

 

Also buggy but hey this is swtor, what is not buggy these days.

There is more but the above are my main gripes.

 

I do want to say there are things I liked about it. Loved Tenebrae's character design. Whoever did that got it right on the mark for me. Pretty cool.

Liked talking with Satele at the end and music was nice and eerie in some scenes, it fit it well. But that is really it.

I wanted to like this update but sadly couldn't .

Edited by eoral
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eoral, I agree with everything you said & had similar thoughts myself while playing.

 

Another thing I was disappointed with was The Emperor not recognizing / remembering the player character. It made EoB even more pointless because it's not even a conclusion to anything then. KOTET's great final chapter was the conclusion and this was just unnecessary continuation / repetition (and I'm saying this as someone who loves Valkorion as a character and was so excited to hear he's coming back... but not like this).

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I guess the emperor didn't recognise us because it's not really the emperor but an echo :rolleyes:

But yeah it is a let down like this whole update.

I'm just going to pretend my character had too much cheese, hit his head, had a bad dream and none of this nonsense happened.

At least the emperor is dead dead. Unless bioware needs another pointless plot point in the future.:(

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  • 1 month later...
But they could find a way around it... if they don't want to bring Valkorion back then they could say his power is so weakened after the reassembly (or whatever it's called) that after possessing Satele Shan he disappears from known Galaxy for the time being to gather his strength and plot his vengeance.

 

Or after betraying your allies to help Valkorion he immediately turns against you and you're forced to fight him after all, all alone this time. I would be fine with that too - because it would have still been mine and my characters choice to make, our mistake, instead of being given no choice at all.

 

I guess the former scenario could've worked. But it feels a little too convenient.

 

The latter simply would not work, though. Do you actually expect to defeat the Emperor by yourself? This guy who could destroy the whole Galaxy with a snap of his finger? Who you needed help to defeat before, and need help to defeat in the normal scenario? Yeah, sorry, but your character isn't THAT much of a Mary Sue.

 

I guess the emperor didn't recognise us because it's not really the emperor but an echo :rolleyes:

But yeah it is a let down like this whole update.

I'm just going to pretend my character had too much cheese, hit his head, had a bad dream and none of this nonsense happened.

At least the emperor is dead dead. Unless bioware needs another pointless plot point in the future.:(

 

Don't quote me on this, but I heard this quest was originally supposed to be a full-on part 3 of the Eternal Empire story, before it was reduced to just the quest we got.

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I guess the former scenario could've worked. But it feels a little too convenient.

 

The latter simply would not work, though. Do you actually expect to defeat the Emperor by yourself? This guy who could destroy the whole Galaxy with a snap of his finger? Who you needed help to defeat before, and need help to defeat in the normal scenario? Yeah, sorry, but your character isn't THAT much of a Mary Sue.

 

Well, you already defeated him like 3-4 times by yourself, so I don't see the problem. This is not the Emperor at the height of his power but rather at his weakest.

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Well, you already defeated him like 3-4 times by yourself, so I don't see the problem. This is not the Emperor at the height of his power but rather at his weakest.

When do you actually defeat him all by yourself, at the height of his power, without any help ?

 

The SW on Voss is not alone, as they have a companion with them, and he wants the SW to kill his Voice so that he can be free and he's fighting against Sel-Makor at the same time.

The JK on DK is with T7 and he just got a new Voice after the SW killed the previous one on Voss, and is further weakened by the JC defeating the First Son.

You don't fight him on Yavin or Ziost and fail both times to stop him.

On Zakuul, either Arcann kills him, or you kill him with a bit of help from Arcann, not to mention, it was probably part of his plan anyways to die there so that he could snatch your body later.

And in your mind, you're not alone either as you have Arcann, Vaylin and later Senya with you.

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When do you actually defeat him all by yourself, at the height of his power, without any help ?

 

The SW on Voss is not alone, as they have a companion with them, and he wants the SW to kill his Voice so that he can be free and he's fighting against Sel-Makor at the same time.

The JK on DK is with T7 and he just got a new Voice after the SW killed the previous one on Voss, and is further weakened by the JC defeating the First Son.

You don't fight him on Yavin or Ziost and fail both times to stop him.

On Zakuul, either Arcann kills him, or you kill him with a bit of help from Arcann, not to mention, it was probably part of his plan anyways to die there so that he could snatch your body later.

And in your mind, you're not alone either as you have Arcann, Vaylin and later Senya with you.

 

You can dismiss your companion in the first two of your examples. As for Yavin and Ziost you weren't there to fight the Emperor. And in the final battle of KOTET you can break Arcann and Vaylin free from Valkorion's control and make them obey you instead - right there you take his power and turn it against him. The player character who killed Arcann and Vaylin is now more powerful than ever before since s/he has consumed their power. And like I said, this version of the Emperor we fight in EoB is Tenebrae at his weakest. He's barely clinging to life and closer to death than perhaps ever before. It's not impossible that the Outlander, who quite likely is now the most powerful force user alive, could defeat him alone . In my opinion, at least. Those who do not agree with that, could simply choose not to select that option.

Edited by ruffolofi
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You can dismiss your companion in the first two of your examples

The game still assumes one is with you, at the very least for T7, as he's part of the cutscene when you fight Vitiate, and neither on Voss not on DK is Vitiate at his peak, in both cases he's weakened, which is why the PC can defeat him. And in the case of the SW he himself wants the SW to kill that particular Voice.

And in the final battle of KOTET you can break Arcann and Vaylin free from Valkorion's control and make them obey you instead - right there you take his power and turn it against him. The player character who killed Arcann and Vaylin is now more powerful than ever before since s/he has consumed their power.

You can free them thanks to the holocron, and you didn't consume their power, Valkorion did. Then the PC has the advantage of being in their own mind, and anyways, Arcann and Vaylin both help you fight Valkorion, whether you killed them both or not, so you are NOT alone.

And like I said, this version of the Emperor we fight in EoB is Tenebrae at his weakest. He's barely clinging to life and closer to death than perhaps ever before. It's not impossible that the Outlander, who quite likely is now the most powerful force user alive, could defeat him alone . In my opinion, at least. Those who do not agree with that, could simply choose not to select that option.

The versions of Tenebrae / Vitiate / Valkorion our PC fight are always a weaker version of him, no matter the encounter.

The only characters who fought him at full power are Revan, Meetra and Scourge in the Revan novel and even the 3 of them together had a hard time, and there is no guarantee they'd have defeated him even if Scourge didn't turn on them (considering his vision, it's more than likely they'd all be dead anyways), and maybe the Jedi strike team (including the JK) who was completely obliterated without Vitiate breaking a sweat (and it's not even sure he was at his strongest as part of him was probably in Valkorion at the same time).

Honestly, considering how powerful he's been established to be (and the guy had to do quite a lot in his 1000 years of living to get to that point), the PC defeating him all alone, even in that weaker version of him we meet there would feel far too OP/Mary Sue-insh to me. And having everyone to defeat him once and for all felt far more satisfying to me, as Revan, Meetra and Scourge were finally able to help us finish what they started 300 years ago, than being some kind of all powerfull god like him. I personally like my character being strong/powerfull, but not being the most powerfull thing ever.

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The game still assumes one is with you, at the very least for T7, as he's part of the cutscene when you fight Vitiate, and neither on Voss not on DK is Vitiate at his peak, in both cases he's weakened, which is why the PC can defeat him. And in the case of the SW he himself wants the SW to kill that particular Voice.

 

You can free them thanks to the holocron, and you didn't consume their power, Valkorion did. Then the PC has the advantage of being in their own mind, and anyways, Arcann and Vaylin both help you fight Valkorion, whether you killed them both or not, so you are NOT alone.

 

The versions of Tenebrae / Vitiate / Valkorion our PC fight are always a weaker version of him, no matter the encounter.

The only characters who fought him at full power are Revan, Meetra and Scourge in the Revan novel and even the 3 of them together had a hard time, and there is no guarantee they'd have defeated him even if Scourge didn't turn on them (considering his vision, it's more than likely they'd all be dead anyways), and maybe the Jedi strike team (including the JK) who was completely obliterated without Vitiate breaking a sweat (and it's not even sure he was at his strongest as part of him was probably in Valkorion at the same time).

Honestly, considering how powerful he's been established to be (and the guy had to do quite a lot in his 1000 years of living to get to that point), the PC defeating him all alone, even in that weaker version of him we meet there would feel far too OP/Mary Sue-insh to me. And having everyone to defeat him once and for all felt far more satisfying to me, as Revan, Meetra and Scourge were finally able to help us finish what they started 300 years ago, than being some kind of all powerfull god like him. I personally like my character being strong/powerfull, but not being the most powerfull thing ever.

 

To play Devil's advocate for a brief bit, I DO think Valkorian was at full power when we fight him at the end of KOTET. But the fact still remains we needed help from Valkorian's family, as well as the special circumstances of being within the Outlander's mind, to win.

 

It it still fair to say that it's unrealistic that in a straight fight, with no help, special abilities, or circumstances whatsoever, our PC probably couldn't beat the Emperor alone. (And if they could, I would have to complain to BioWare that since our PC is obviously the most powerful being in the galaxy canonically, I should be allowed to usurp the Emperor's scheme and become ruler of/destroy the galaxy myself.)

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The game still assumes one is with you, at the very least for T7, as he's part of the cutscene when you fight Vitiate, and neither on Voss not on DK is Vitiate at his peak, in both cases he's weakened, which is why the PC can defeat him. And in the case of the SW he himself wants the SW to kill that particular Voice.

 

Just like he is in EoB, which kind of proves my point, no?

 

You can free them thanks to the holocron, and you didn't consume their power, Valkorion did. Then the PC has the advantage of being in their own mind, and anyways, Arcann and Vaylin both help you fight Valkorion, whether you killed them both or not, so you are NOT alone.

 

If they were simply freed why would they still linger around by the time of EoB? We also have to take into account who the player character is here. If it's the Inquisitor then they absolutely did consume Arcann and Vaylin's power. For other classes, Valkorion consumed their power, but then the Outlander took control of their spirits and now their strength is part of him/her instead. Obviously it didn't just vanish or otherwise you wouldn't have dragged them with you to Satele's mind.

 

 

Honestly, considering how powerful he's been established to be (and the guy had to do quite a lot in his 1000 years of living to get to that point), the PC defeating him all alone, even in that weaker version of him we meet there would feel far too OP/Mary Sue-insh to me. And having everyone to defeat him once and for all felt far more satisfying to me, as Revan, Meetra and Scourge were finally able to help us finish what they started 300 years ago, than being some kind of all powerfull god like him. I personally like my character being strong/powerfull, but not being the most powerfull thing ever.

 

That's fine. It's why I said it should've been one of the options, not the only one. So that each player can experience the story they feel fits their character best.

Edited by ruffolofi
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Just like he is in EoB, which kind of proves my point, no?

 

I thought it was implied that he was indeed at full power in Echoes. Possibly stronger, given that he could manifest three versions of himself. He just lacked the wisdom of his later incarnations.

 

If they were simply freed why would they still linger around by the time of EoB? We also have to take into account who the player character is here. If it's the Inquisitor then they absolutely did consume Arcann and Vaylin's power. For other classes, Valkorion consumed their power, but then the Outlander took control of their spirits and now their strength is part of him/her instead. Obviously it didn't just vanish or otherwise you wouldn't have dragged them with you to Satele's mind.

 

 

 

 

That's fine. It's why I said it should've been one of the options, not the only one. So that each player can experience the story they feel fits their character best.

 

Considering the story that would've suited MY character (at least my dark-sided one) best if he was capable of beating the Emperor alone would be to single-handedly dominate the entire galaxy with no one to oppose him, which would mean that we couldn't have any further game, I don't think this is much of an excuse. That's the problem with a constantly-updating MMO like SWTOR. They can't make you so powerful that you'd break the story, but at the same time they can't make your character willing to make decisions that would get them killed.

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I thought it was implied that he was indeed at full power in Echoes. Possibly stronger, given that he could manifest three versions of himself. He just lacked the wisdom of his later incarnations.

 

No, that's not true. His original body has been destroyed as well the two more advanced forms of himself. This version of Tenebrae is merely a wisp, a fragment, a damaged spirit that is merely holding on to existence. When we encounter him he's still in the process of "rebuilding" himself (which is probably why he doesn't have the wisdom or memories of Vitiate and Valkorion) and comments it's taking a lot longer than he anticipated. It's like Tom Riddle in Chamber of Secrets - a very young version who does not have the experience or wisdom of the older version but is still very dangerous and powerful.

 

Considering the story that would've suited MY character (at least my dark-sided one) best if he was capable of beating the Emperor alone would be to single-handedly dominate the entire galaxy with no one to oppose him, which would mean that we couldn't have any further game, I don't think this is much of an excuse. That's the problem with a constantly-updating MMO like SWTOR. They can't make you so powerful that you'd break the story, but at the same time they can't make your character willing to make decisions that would get them killed.

 

That's a bit of a stretch and a poor counter-argument. What I have talked about in this thread and the suggestions I have made wouldn't make it impossible for the game to be continued. All I'm saying is there should've been different options to how you want to deal with Valkorion. Allowing the player to join forces with him only to be betrayed by him and forced to kill him alone wouldn't break the game. And again, if you feel that option would make YOUR character too OP then simply don't do it.

Edited by ruffolofi
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No, that's not true. His original body has been destroyed as well the two more advanced forms of himself. This version of Tenebrae is merely a wisp, a fragment, a damaged spirit that is merely holding on to existence. When we encounter him he's still in the process of "rebuilding" himself (which is probably why he doesn't have the wisdom or memories of Vitiate and Valkorion) and comments it's taking a lot longer than he anticipated. It's like Tom Riddle in Chamber of Secrets - a very young version who does not have the experience or wisdom of the older version but is still very dangerous and powerful.

 

Whether or not his body was destroyed is irrelevant. This is his essence we're talking about here. Which means he should have every bit of power over the force as he did before. Thanos in Endgame is a better analogue than Tom Riddle. (Endgame Thanos is a younger version that has less wisdom and experience than his Infinity War self, but is just as powerful.)

 

That's a bit of a stretch and a poor counter-argument. What I have talked about in this thread and the suggestions I have made wouldn't make it impossible for the game to be continued. All I'm saying is there should've been different options to how you want to deal with Valkorion. Allowing the player to join forces with him only to be betrayed by him and forced to kill him alone wouldn't break the game. And again, if you feel that option would make YOUR character too OP then simply don't do it.

 

You think my counter argument is a stretch? You think it's poor? Hypocrite. Sounds to me like you can't accept the flaws in your view and are dismissing them for being inconvenient to you. If I'm going to be a Mary Sue capable of beating the the single most dangerous being in the galaxy alone, why shouldn't I be allowed to go all the way and destroy the game?

 

"And again, if you feel that option would make YOUR character too OP then simply don't do it."

 

Choose between acting in character and not being OP. Great...

 

Also, remember how the fight with the Emperor went and explain how the heck anyone could beat him alone. I'm sorry, but I don't care how precise you are with your level of OPness. There is NO WAY you could justify beating him alone, or justify NOT letting your character destroy the game if you could.

 

(BTW, this argument kinda becomes void if you simply consider the idea that after all the trouble you've caused him, the Emperor and his followers may not be willing to even pretend to be nice to you. And/or with the Emperor's newfound youthful cockiness, he may not think he needs to manipulate you and would rather just cut to the chase.)

Edited by rashencyberspeed
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