In every single BG, Scoundrels/Operatives are topping PVP damage. They are simply UNKILLABLE, UNCONTROLLABLE, their CC is crazy, their heals and defenses are crazy and basically can stop an entire team from capping anything in BGs. It makes Warcraft's ROGUE's look like clowns. This class needs to be hit with the biggest nerfbat in the game. I play the class and have to laugh out loud. Even *I* should not be this OP.

ANd to be frank, I play every class in the game and nothing comes close to the OP-ness of Scoundrels/Operatives.

PLEASE NERF THEM HARD. Make SWTOR (PVP) Great Again! (MSAGA!)

They do not need a nerf, they need to have the bugs fixed.

Stop the set bonus stacking, stop the tactical swapping that other classes cannot do, and they are fine.

Sins in a similar place.

That has to be addressed before we start swinging the nerf bat.

In every single BG, Scoundrels/Operatives are topping PVP damage. They are simply UNKILLABLE, UNCONTROLLABLE, their CC is crazy, their heals and defenses are crazy and basically can stop an entire team from capping anything in BGs. It makes Warcraft's ROGUE's look like clowns. This class needs to be hit with the biggest nerfbat in the game. I play the class and have to laugh out loud. Even *I* should not be this OP.

 

ANd to be frank, I play every class in the game and nothing comes close to the OP-ness of Scoundrels/Operatives.

 

PLEASE NERF THEM HARD. Make SWTOR (PVP) Great Again! (MSAGA!)

If you're stalling an entire team then the entire team is bad. That's not my opinion, it's a fact.

I'm actually ok with them nerfing operatives, not because I think the class needs a nerf, simply because I'm bored of reading stupid posts like this about them.

If you're stalling an entire team then the entire team is bad. That's not my opinion, it's a fact.

reading stupid posts like this about them.

Beg to differ.

Operatives are TOPPING BG DPS by a wide margin and nearly impossible to kill. Because they can pour out so much damage, deflection/defenses and healing, they're damn near impossible to stop. Pair them with a halfway decent healer and they can stop the opposing team from tanking any base. 2v2, 2v3, 2v4, 2,v5, 2v6.

I've FACTUALLY seen this.

If you're stalling an entire team then the entire team is bad. That's not my opinion, it's a fact.

 

I'm actually ok with them nerfing operatives, not because I think the class needs a nerf, simply because I'm bored of reading stupid posts like this about them.

I have to agree with this. The problem is people don't know how to deal with them. Rolled twice? Stun him and he is dead. If he has dodge wait for it to run out and for him to roll again. But people don't get how the class works and blow their stuns when they are rolling and max their resolve. They also tend to react rather slowly too or just be bad at dealing damage.

Their damage if concealment is also quite predictable.

I do think the self healing on the ruffian spec is likely overpowered and needs a nerf. I guess a roll cd increase might be in need as well. Just for one second or so. Decrease the invincibility and mobility for a bit.

If you're stalling an entire team then the entire team is bad. That's not my opinion, it's a fact.

Picking a garbage anecdotal scenario to justify opinion as fact eh.

No class can disrupt the channel of a cap to the same degree as an operative. That's more like a fact.

Initial stealth, vanish, sapping, 30m attacks available 100% of the time, instant CC, good health sustain and damage resistance options.

It's obviously not about standing there to get hit, it's about being able to throw in tiny levels of damage and disruption without getting pinned down and killed for as long as possible.

Odd that a class main would pass off the obvious advantage operatives have at that task as the enemy being bad

Beg to differ.

 

Operatives are TOPPING BG DPS by a wide margin and nearly impossible to kill. Because they can pour out so much damage, deflection/defenses and healing, they're damn near impossible to stop. Pair them with a halfway decent healer and they can stop the opposing team from tanking any base. 2v2, 2v3, 2v4, 2,v5, 2v6.

 

I've FACTUALLY seen this.

Operatives are not topping BG DPS. Lethality can parse very well with dot spread but they can't stall as well as concealment, please don't combine the strengths of two specs in a desperate attempt to prove something.

Healer and tank will stall longer than healer and operative. You just have no idea how to counter play operative despite playing one.

Pro tip: It's not hard.

Picking a garbage anecdotal scenario to justify opinion as fact eh.

 

No class can disrupt the channel of a cap to the same degree as an operative. That's more like a fact.

 

Initial stealth, vanish, sapping, 30m attacks available 100% of the time, instant CC, good health sustain and damage resistance options.

 

It's obviously not about standing there to get hit, it's about being able to throw in tiny levels of damage and disruption without getting pinned down and killed for as long as possible.

 

Odd that a class main would pass off the obvious advantage operatives have at that task as the enemy being bad

Operatives are good at stalling. Two good players who know what they're doing (ie. aren't terrible) will cap it relatively quickly.

Source: I'm pretty good at stalling

Yep they are strong. Top tier.

But don't touch them.

Give PT and Jugg DPS a strong DCD in a form of a tactical or set bonus. Also give merc a light DCD too (as well in a tactical or set to not overbuff them).

Prevent tactical swap in pvp.

Or make reveal abilities (stealth scan and co) more reliable. Atm stealth scan is so bad its laughable, it only works vs mara...

In every single BG, Scoundrels/Operatives are topping PVP damage. They are simply UNKILLABLE, UNCONTROLLABLE, their CC is crazy, their heals and defenses are crazy and basically can stop an entire team from capping anything in BGs. It makes Warcraft's ROGUE's look like clowns. This class needs to be hit with the biggest nerfbat in the game. I play the class and have to laugh out loud. Even *I* should not be this OP.

 

ANd to be frank, I play every class in the game and nothing comes close to the OP-ness of Scoundrels/Operatives.

 

PLEASE NERF THEM HARD. Make SWTOR (PVP) Great Again! (MSAGA!)

Deception sin needs more nerf than oper lol. these guarding/2 mezz'es and possibility to regen full hp 2 times, these 65k mauls 3 times in a row are nearly god mode in skilled hands in ranked. Currenlty sin is both supporter, damager and a tank

Beg to differ.

 

Operatives are TOPPING BG DPS by a wide margin and nearly impossible to kill. Because they can pour out so much damage, deflection/defenses and healing, they're damn near impossible to stop. Pair them with a halfway decent healer and they can stop the opposing team from tanking any base. 2v2, 2v3, 2v4, 2,v5, 2v6.

 

I've FACTUALLY seen this.

sin and mara are top damage in ranked. not oper lol

Beg to differ.

 

Operatives are TOPPING BG DPS by a wide margin and nearly impossible to kill. Because they can pour out so much damage, deflection/defenses and healing, they're damn near impossible to stop. Pair them with a halfway decent healer and they can stop the opposing team from tanking any base. 2v2, 2v3, 2v4, 2,v5, 2v6.

 

I've FACTUALLY seen this.

sin and mara are top damage in ranked. not oper lol. dot pt can do 13k dps in second + 90 k biggest hit. YOU sure you play swtor?

In every single BG, Scoundrels/Operatives are topping PVP damage. They are simply UNKILLABLE, UNCONTROLLABLE, their CC is crazy, their heals and defenses are crazy and basically can stop an entire team from capping anything in BGs. It makes Warcraft's ROGUE's look like clowns. This class needs to be hit with the biggest nerfbat in the game. I play the class and have to laugh out loud. Even *I* should not be this OP.

 

ANd to be frank, I play every class in the game and nothing comes close to the OP-ness of Scoundrels/Operatives.

 

PLEASE NERF THEM HARD. Make SWTOR (PVP) Great Again! (MSAGA!)

Personally I want pretty much every class nerfed into the ground. I'd like to go back to 1.1.5/2.X when not everyone had access to a million DCD's, invulnerabilities and mobility utilities.

I also want pvp gear back dammit. I'm getting sick of running FP's.

We just ran a 4v4 BG.

Operative (only only on our side) did 1.7MM damage overall.

Next closes?

My Gunslinger at 550k.

There side DPS was a Shadow at 330k.

DON'T TELL ME OPERATIVES ARE NOT EFFING OP!!!! WE win EVERY SINGLE BG with Operatives. They need to be nerfed to the ground.

We just ran a 4v4 BG.

 

Operative (only only on our side) did 1.7MM damage overall.

 

Next closes?

 

My Gunslinger at 550k.

There side DPS was a Shadow at 330k.

 

DON'T TELL ME OPERATIVES ARE NOT EFFING OP!!!! WE win EVERY SINGLE BG with Operatives. They need to be nerfed to the ground.

You have 0 clue what you're talking about.

On topic: Operatives are too strong atm yes. Not Sin class OP, but easily no. 2 in the class ranking. Nerf either the utility (double hardstun or double stim boost) or the damage (backstab autocrit) and they are fine. No need to touch both.

Also: If they nerf Sin and Op, which they probably should, Mara would become the strongest class easily. So this might be the opportunity to finally nerf predation.

You have 0 clue what you're talking about.

 

On topic: Operatives are too strong atm yes. Not Sin class OP, but easily no. 2 in the class ranking. Nerf either the utility (double hardstun or double stim boost) or the damage (backstab autocrit) and they are fine. No need to touch both.

 

Also: If they nerf Sin and Op, which they probably should, Mara would become the strongest class easily. So this might be the opportunity to finally nerf predation.

Correct. It's volatile strike and the autocrit backstabs that need to be nerfed, that's all.

As for maras, balance-wise I think they're okay. It's just that the playstyle required of them is terrible. It sucks to play against, and most maras I know hate having to stealth out nonstop to win games. I would welcome a nerf to pred for that reason alone.

Correct. It's volatile strike and the autocrit backstabs that need to be nerfed, that's all.

 

As for maras, balance-wise I think they're okay. It's just that the playstyle required of them is terrible. It sucks to play against, and most maras I know hate having to stealth out nonstop to win games. I would welcome a nerf to pred for that reason alone.

This is mostly accurate. I'd rank operatives at 1 currently, at least in ranked, due to their ability to solo global any class that doesn't have an immunity CD available (sniper evasion, undying rage, shroud, bubble) regardless of health level. The level of burst that volatile strike gives them is simply game-breaking, mostly because it is repeatable every 15 seconds with no cooldown (and twice back to back in the opener). Concealment is also far superior to deception in its ability to control a class and stop it from kiting while unloading this burst (crippling slice into hardstun for the first burst window, then mezz and apply second volatile and break with veiled strike. Only have to land 1 gcd out of essentially stunlock.) This control far outstrips the ability to offguard from assassins, as with 6.0 burst a guarding sin will do pretty low damage if a good player sits on them. If there are 2-3 assassins alternating guard with a healer, then obviously this is different, but that's exceedingly rare in solos. That's not to say sins aren't OP, as they're a strong number 2, for similar non-cooldown autocrit reasons, but they at least have to waste a vanish to reset their autocrit. The problem is, operatives have always been very difficult kill targets (read: the last in kill target priority) and an unbeatable 1v1 class since 5.x and perhaps before, so to add REPEATABLE 100-~20 burst to that kit makes it so the team with the least operatives is extremely outcomped. There's another point to be made about them being the only class that can offheal while doing damage, but that was the case in 5.x too so I'll leave it alone.

TL;DR: volatile strike too stronk, add a 30-60s cooldown to it. Deception stronk for similar reason, add a cooldown to maul (10s?) that duplicity resets. Do this and balance is drastically improved. Then (and only then) maybe take a look at stormwatch, continuous fire, defel spliced genes, and heal scaling.

This is mostly accurate. I'd rank operatives at 1 currently, at least in ranked [...] That's not to say sins aren't OP, as they're a strong number 2

I don't wanna argue too much here, since we agree on the main topic which is sin and op being the strongest classes atm, and only disagree on which of them is number 1, which is fine, we all have different impressions and experiences.

But let me still add 3 points that in my opinion push sins over operatives, maybe it's informative for some:

- Low Slash. It interrupts, it keeps your target in place even at a distance of 30m (or even more with travel time) and most importantly: if correctly used, it de facto is a hard stun for a full GCD + adds a slight delay after to where you are able to act but still can't roll / mad dash / ... (similar to grenades). An operative can't CC at over 10m distance, they either rely on holotraverse or have to roll that distance which costs GCDs and time and gives the target opportunity for counterplay.

- Sin's immunity to stuns (Shroud + Saber Ward) while being able to do their damage pretty much guarantees a sin or a group of sins to get the opener, and not only the opener, but a ridiculous one (spike, low slash, autocrit mauls). When an operative opens and lets say with hardstun into volatile etc. that's certainly scary too, but remember during that, the operative is always vulnerable to any CC and knockback by team mates (or sorc's flash bubble!) and if used well their opener is gone. Against a sin opener (or maras opening from stealth with Force Crush) team mates can often do nothing to help except pressuring back for the first 6-10 sec.

- You already mentioned sin's power to offguard, which is obviously strong but how strong exactly is hard to evaluate. It shines with "force focus on you" by offguarding into vanish regen + equip lifewarden into "force focus on you" by offguarding again, that carrys many 4 dps and also 3 dps healer games. Yes, there is counterplay for sin vanish in the form of Electro Net or revealing them with AoE, but from my experience they get away too often still.

This is mostly accurate. I'd rank operatives at 1 currently, at least in ranked, due to their ability to solo global any class that doesn't have an immunity CD available (sniper evasion, undying rage, shroud, bubble) regardless of health level. The level of burst that volatile strike gives them is simply game-breaking, mostly because it is repeatable every 15 seconds with no cooldown (and twice back to back in the opener). Concealment is also far superior to deception in its ability to control a class and stop it from kiting while unloading this burst (crippling slice into hardstun for the first burst window, then mezz and apply second volatile and break with veiled strike. Only have to land 1 gcd out of essentially stunlock.) This control far outstrips the ability to offguard from assassins, as with 6.0 burst a guarding sin will do pretty low damage if a good player sits on them. If there are 2-3 assassins alternating guard with a healer, then obviously this is different, but that's exceedingly rare in solos. That's not to say sins aren't OP, as they're a strong number 2, for similar non-cooldown autocrit reasons, but they at least have to waste a vanish to reset their autocrit. The problem is, operatives have always been very difficult kill targets (read: the last in kill target priority) and an unbeatable 1v1 class since 5.x and perhaps before, so to add REPEATABLE 100-~20 burst to that kit makes it so the team with the least operatives is extremely outcomped. There's another point to be made about them being the only class that can offheal while doing damage, but that was the case in 5.x too so I'll leave it alone.

 

TL;DR: volatile strike too stronk, add a 30-60s cooldown to it. Deception stronk for similar reason, add a cooldown to maul (10s?) that duplicity resets. Do this and balance is drastically improved. Then (and only then) maybe take a look at stormwatch, continuous fire, defel spliced genes, and heal scaling.

I almost completely agree with you except I tend to side with Sertar that sins are slightly above ops, but it's very close either way. And they're both far above lightning sorcs, I think all reasonable players can agree.

Personally I want pretty much every class nerfed into the ground. I'd like to go back to 1.1.5/2.X when not everyone had access to a million DCD's, invulnerabilities and mobility utilities.

 

I also want pvp gear back dammit. I'm getting sick of running FP's.

I'd love it as well if every DPS was a glass cannon, but unfortunately the game will never revert to that state. Solo Ranked is why DPS have become increasingly "tanky" over the course of the game. So long as Solo Ranked exists each DPS spec needs defenses to help mitigate (or counter) focus without help in the form of guard or healing. The bloat of "tanky" DCDs, mobility boosts, escapes, ect is all tied to balancing for Solo Ranked.

Before someone gets triggered by that post...I'm not advocating that Ranked be Group only. Just stating that Solo Ranked existing has some consequences that can't be avoided in the form of DPS specs having strong defensive abilities.

We just ran a 4v4 BG.

 

Operative (only only on our side) did 1.7MM damage overall.

 

Next closes?

 

My Gunslinger at 550k.

There side DPS was a Shadow at 330k.

 

DON'T TELL ME OPERATIVES ARE NOT EFFING OP!!!! WE win EVERY SINGLE BG with Operatives. They need to be nerfed to the ground.

What happened there was this: there was one good player (happened to be an operative), may be more if there were healers? And everybody else was just bad.

550k? Come on, man. In a 4v4 map as a gunslinger you can get over 500k damage by simply sneezing. Before you can judge which class is op and which is not, you need to at least learn to play your own class on a reasonable level.

We just ran a 4v4 BG.

 

Operative (only only on our side) did 1.7MM damage overall.

 

Next closes?

 

My Gunslinger at 550k.

There side DPS was a Shadow at 330k.

 

DON'T TELL ME OPERATIVES ARE NOT EFFING OP!!!! WE win EVERY SINGLE BG with Operatives. They need to be nerfed to the ground.

Please speak in DPS ie 4k or 10k dps makes more sense. 1.7 million in 2 mins is one thing 1.7 mi in 5 mins is another. 10/15k dps is a number that every class can do atm. 15k plus is when you are speaking serious numbers.

The most I see doing 15k plus are Jugg and PTs. Max output between DPS is around 3k different from worst to best specs when parsed. It is not a lot. The problem and this is not only in Operatives is how much off-heal can a DPS spec do. That is the question. This problem revolves also around Sages and Commandos.

The thing with Operatives is that in the hands of someone who knows the class well, they are very hard to kill esp if you do not know the class. They have also quite a few escape abilities as much as Sin with the advantage that they can off heal.

I would welcome a nerf to pred for that reason alone.

Predation should be only for Carnage/Combat which is the spec which really needs it. Theu actually broke it, when they gave it to Fury and Annihilation was it in 5 or 4.0. The vanish tactical just highlights this problem.

Correct. It's volatile strike and the autocrit backstabs that need to be nerfed, that's all.

 

As for maras, balance-wise I think they're okay. It's just that the playstyle required of them is terrible. It sucks to play against, and most maras I know hate having to stealth out nonstop to win games. I would welcome a nerf to pred for that reason alone.

I f'ning hate this stealth out / healup playstyle.

I'd love it as well if every DPS was a glass cannon, but unfortunately the game will never revert to that state. Solo Ranked is why DPS have become increasingly "tanky" over the course of the game. So long as Solo Ranked exists each DPS spec needs defenses to help mitigate (or counter) focus without help in the form of guard or healing. The bloat of "tanky" DCDs, mobility boosts, escapes, ect is all tied to balancing for Solo Ranked.

 

Before someone gets triggered by that post...I'm not advocating that Ranked be Group only. Just stating that Solo Ranked existing has some consequences that can't be avoided in the form of DPS specs having strong defensive abilities.

I agree solo ranked forced all the characters to be "strong" before we could have utility character not good in dps but having special utility for objective "range" "stun" "debuff" with arena everybody needs a bit of everything otherwise is just unfair.

In 4vs4 all that matter is to do damage and survive, so everybody needs to do similar damage and have a similar chance of survival. This is why we have class stacking because ranked all the class end up doing the same job and the one that does it better get repeated.