You've been terribly misled. If this is your first MMO, you should definitely do some more research into the slang and the history of MMORPGs.

 

Ninja Looting isn't even being used in the proper context in this discussion. Ninja Looting used to happen in MMORPGs where if a boss died ... the boss took 40 or more people to kill. The body was there. On it were 4 pieces of loot. For 40 people to decide how to divvy up.

 

And the body wouldn't despawn in the fast time that a regular trash mob would. It'd be up there for awhile. Because there would be a system for loot distribution about to take place.

 

Ninja looting though, involved people gaining access to that corpse, and thus the items, and swiping them away before any loot decision could be made.

 

This is in a time when there were no forced rolling buttons (I.E. that wonderful little "Need, Greed, Pass" option this game provides) and master looter controls didn't even exist.

 

Real ninja looting was when you wasted a couple hours of your Friday night killing Lord Nagafen only to watch some actual NINJA LOOTER swoop in, while you're still being rezzed, and take a Cloak of Flames and then log out.

 

Poof.

 

Gone.

 

No roll.

 

No "need for companion."

 

Whoever you talked to in THIS game has been misleading you about ninja looting and loot ettiquette and not given you enough of an MMO backstory to really do you any justice.

 

Use the internet. Get acquainted with other MMOs and get up on their slang. Knowing is half the battle and all that. And you're lack of experience is only going to prevent you from making the most informed decision you can about ettiquette.

 

Seeing as how within the first two groups I joined I was booted from them for choosing need over greed...you'll forgive me if I don;t temp fate a 3rd time.

I learned this the hard way when I started playing this game as it was my first MMO. I didn't even know what the need vs greed system meant at one point, and at another it was an issue of me picking up for companion gear.

 

The need/ greed system does a suprisingly good job at keeping things fair with the help of the community, and tolerating folks rolling need for pets would undermine the system.

 

As suggested, there should be a 3rd option of "need for companion" that has a greater chance than greed but a less chance than need.

 

If you got kicked without the chance to state that this is your first MMO and didn't know the rules, then those people were at fault. However, I would counsel you to comb through this thread and other similar ones and note the arguments from both sides, then draw your own conclusions on which system makes more sense. It's a touchy subject for many people.

 

I imagine there must be many players like you who are experiencing their first MMO because they were drawn in by the IP, so it's no surprise that this has become such a heated debate once more.

1. [*]

Need: But cannot be chosen unless your character can actually equip/use the item, otherwise the option would be greyed out

 

For the most part I think this system could work... Expect in this case.

 

As a Jedi Guardian, I can wear pretty much every set of armor in the game, heavy, light medium... I can wear any of it. So for me nothing would be greyed out, even that light +will power armor.

This is correct. Technically, we'd want to be using the term "Ninja Rolling", I would think. Or, you could simply say the terminology has evolved with the loot systems.

 

Ninja Rolling is hard for a cranky old geezer like me to come around on. I've been ninja'd in other games. And as long as I have the option to roll for an item, there's a chance you know? It's pretty fair, compared to actual loot theft problems from the past in past games.

 

I would love to discuss the idea of the terminoogy evolving with the loot system. But a lot of the most hard-line and adamant people in this discussion don't seem willing to consider the idea that this game, with its different take on companions (they're not like pets in World of Warcraft), they just don't seem willing to discuss the idea that the companion itself is an evolution and so that mechanic also carries weight in the discussion.

 

In other words, yeah, I'd love to consider the fact that people are growing the slang. But those same people don't seem to want to discuss the idea that companions are a bit more in this game than pets were in other games.

 

So I don't see much hope there.

 

@inquisitorshadow: The most ironic thing of all in this thread is ... if you ended up in groups with the "ninjas" and "jerks" that this thread condemns, you'd have not been kicked or treated poorly. Take me for instance. You end up grouping with me and my friends, and you'd have probably ended up with a lot of chances on whatever drops because we're just not that hung up on loot. Roll need if you want to need it for your companion, you, your bank account. Most of what drops, especially during the leveling process, is so quickly and easily replacable that it's far better to make a new friend than it is to stamp our feet and argue about loot.

I'm a Dark Side Sith, I play on an RP server, I pick Need whenever I can. Especially if other people can use the item.

I am one of the few healers on my server, therefor I can be a jerk without consequences. I like this alot.

 

When I play on a normal server or not roleplaying I am nice and only pick Need when I can actually use the item.

The term Ninja Looting has evolved to become a general term for anyone taking loot they do not deserve.

I'm an MMO noob having only dabbled in WoW so the obvious solution to me would be to eliminate "need" altogether. The potential for abuse was clear when I first came across it in WoW and I don't understand the point of retaining something that can be such a source of friction (just saying, "that's what MMOs do" is a crap reason). The mere existence of "need" encourages people to be selfish and you can't realistically expect that everyone's going to ignore the option.

I really do not understand the basics on this whole subject in this type pf MMO. I come from a "corpse loot" style mmo looting mechanic where you open a box(casket/corps/ect) and shared damage splits the loot via a behind the scene RNG.

 

That has kept me out of this debate for years.

 

How I handle it here is I roll need on anything I can use pertaining to my current toon. If I need to send it via the mail system to another toon (technically meaning I should roll need on every single drop I get credit for) I X out the roll box.

 

And still have players QT out of hard mode instances because they found my "morals lacking". Or in other words they were just being a baby about it EVEN IF THEY GOT THE DROP!

 

Honestly I can tell you I rolled my char from lvl 1, ground quests all the way to TWENTY, thats level 20, without a single item change. No new belts or shield or anything.

 

Just repairing the starting gear!

 

And the game played just fine albeit a little less fun, the character augmentation is completely cosmetic and ANYONE being brash or pouty about it is a complete ***!

I've espoused my views on this issue a number of times already, but I just wanted to express a few more concerns I have regarding rolling Need for your companions.

 

Actually, that's not entirely correct. This issue really isn't about rolling for your companions, but rather rolling for an item that you believe you need, regardless of reason. After all, if you can roll for your companion, why can't I roll to disassemble the item, or vendor it for credits? Without establishing an hierarchy of need, every one in the group now has an equal right to roll Need on the item regardless of whether they actually need the item.

 

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not accusing anyone of being greedy for wanting to perpetuate that mentality. That debate is pointless as no one so firmly entrenched in their position will ever admit (at least openly) to being greedy. What I do want to do is outline the consequences of using that set of loot rules over the more traditional one established in past MMOs.

 

When you open up loot rules to the point where anyone can roll on anything, chances are that the item will go toward some alternate purpose rather than upgrading the character that needs it most in the environment in which it was obtained---in this case, Flashpoints. What happens then is that the principal characters involved in a Flashpoint will receive no tangible upgrades, even though they may have a better solo experience due to an upgraded companion, or have a fatter wallet because of the mats or credits.

 

So if you're someone like me who just wants to upgrade my main character (and, in many cases, to help others gear up their mains), what is the point of running a Flashpoint? Chances are, someone will out-roll me for an item that only I can equip and is an upgrade for me, since no matter what the item is, I only have a 25% chance of winning. Without the incentive of getting geared up, I stop bothering with Flashpoints altogether, and those who think like me will also do the same, resulting in fewer people participating in FPs.

 

Also, let's use a gambling analogy. You can view the game's RNG as the house and your group members as fellow players. Using an hierarchy of need, the players are in fact rolling against the house (since it's up to the game to determine which type of item drops). Using the "roll Need if you need" system, the players all roll against each other. It's a matter of perception; I don't want to roll against other players. I want to beat the house.

 

So, take that as you will. Greed does not enter the equation. I just think one system makes more sense than the other.

 

^^I like this^^

 

let me build on this theory some more, if you don't mind, but seems like everyone is busy trying to voice their own version of opinion instead of building on something.

 

1. Need vs. greed is a courtesy.

the whole system is base on the idea that someone will have more benefit from an item than others. So let's say that every single drop in the game can either enhance your stat or turn into credits. But since some item are BoP, credit will not buy you back the item to enhance your stat. And credit has more than one way to obtained. So in MY OPINION, item(stat) > credit.

 

2.Stat on main vs. companion

while many of you argue that companion is important because you cannot solo a lot of content without companion. I agree, you do need your companion to go thru the content. However, I do not agree on two things. Companion will never be as strong as a same level PC due to the fact that they are just bots. Unless you firmly believe that your same level companion is more effective than an actual player(provided they are at least average skilled), then I am speechless and no pt to make this debate any longer. And so, IMO, increasing stat on a PC is more important than on a companion

 

3. Benefit in the sense of all PC and companions in a group.

so if you considering MY OPINION of PC stat is more important than companion STAT, then as someone suggest, there should be an option for rolling need for companion, however, the game doesn't have it. So while some people scale up to the "Need", some people scale down to "Greed".

 

4. JUST PURE MY OPINION

your companion doesn't need that legendary epic heavy armor to help you to go thru your class quest.....blue item is more than enough. or if you have orange, enhancement is like 4-5K on GTN. so don't play barbie with them, you really, will be fine. Besides, think of it as this, "instead of making my solo experience more smooth, you are helping another player solo experience even smoother."

And people are supposed to divine this how?

 

oh wait, like I said, it's something you should state when you start the group. If you have special rules beyond "hit need if you think you need it and hit greed if you would like it but don't think you need it and pass otherwise" and are going to get bent out of shape if someone doesn't follow your unspoken rule... then really, it's your responsibility to state that at the beginning of the group.

 

Circular argument based on a false analogy.

 

Because its common knowledge? Chances are, you only make that mistake once, at very early group play, before you get royally ******* at and/or kicked out of the group for doing it.

 

Those of you here defending it know this yet still defend your actions and expect US (the majority) to conform to you. Most people dont like and consider it ninja looting. Therefore it falls to the "pet-looter" to express it. You dont expect every group to pause and define loot rules every single time because of the off chance that there may be one among you who believes otherwise. Given the rarity it is much more efficient for the pet-looter, to say something that the rest of the group will have to agree with.

 

Like I said, I have slightly different personal opinion than most (ie. if im bringing my pet in to help, im rolling for him). However since im not the aforementioned egotistical self centered brat ... I ASK sometime before I do anything. I dont expect the rest of the team to go through a checklist of commonly known rules to make sure I dont do it.

 

P.S Youre not fooling anyone. The only reason you DONT say anything at first is because you know chances are you'll be denied. Rolling on your pet without warning anyone gives you the "oops I didnt know" excuse so you can at least get away with it once.

Edited January 17, 2012 by MasterKayote

Because its common knowledge? Chances are, you only make that mistake once, at very early group play, before you get royally ******* at and/or kicked out of the group for doing it.

 

Those of you here defending it know this yet still defend your actions and expect US (the majority) to conform to you. Most people dont like and consider it ninja looting. Therefore it falls to the "pet-looter" to express it. You dont expect every group to pause and define loot rules every single time because of the off chance that there may be one among you who believes otherwise. Given the rarity it is much more efficient for the pet-looter, to say something that the rest of the group will have to agree with.

 

Like I said, I have slightly different personal opinion than most (ie. if im bringing my pet in to help, im rolling for him). However since im not the aforementioned egotistical self centered brat ... I ASK sometime before I do anything. I dont expect the rest of the team to go through a checklist of commonly known rules to make sure I dont do it.

 

P.S Youre not fooling anyone. The only reason you DONT say anything at first is because you know chances are you'll be denied. Rolling on your pet without warning anyone gives you the "oops I didnt know" excuse so you can at least get away with it once.

Assumptions and opinion.

 

50 pages since I last read this thread and not one new thing has been said.

 

Self-righteous idiots who think that their opinion is right and true, on both sides, when opinions mean exactly ****. You can roll need for companions in game right now, so what you think means exactly **** either way until that is changed.

Because its common knowledge? Chances are, you only make that mistake once, at very early group play, before you get royally ******* at and/or kicked out of the group for doing it.

 

I was poking around some of your other posts in other threads, and for a guy with a jedi avatar on these forums, you're a really spiteful fella. So much hate and desire for retribution.

 

I view it all as the same empty threats and what not, but your "sith list" is really entertaining.

 

I tend to think most people will end up not really enjoying grouping with you when you're keeping score of their actions so closely and your whole idea of righteous frontier justice could end up backfiring.

I'm going to need the next few rolls just because of this post. (for my companion)

I just love when people try to tell other people how they should play the game. My other favorite is when they try to convince the developers that the game should be changed just for them.

 

Not only do you have to agree with me but I want the game changed so that you are forced to play the way I want!!!!!

GTN,PVP,story quest reward companion armor, craft your own, use commedations, trade between characters...

 

with soo many ways to equip your companion. Needing for comps in flash's IS stealing. just admit it.

 

Im just gonna keep posting this every couple pages or so now...

I was poking around some of your other posts in other threads, and for a guy with a jedi avatar on these forums, you're a really spiteful fella. So much hate and desire for retribution.

 

I view it all as the same empty threats and what not, but your "sith list" is really entertaining.

 

I tend to think most people will end up not really enjoying grouping with you when you're keeping score of their actions so closely and your whole idea of righteous frontier justice could end up backfiring.

 

Simply not true. Most people in game agree with me.So I will admit to possibly getting too worked up here. because in game. I warn them/educate them, boot them and blacklist them. prob solved. Too bad it had to happen int the first place but it did.

 

I have many firends I dont keep talies or peoples gear but rolling need on lightsaber and your a smuggler, there is something wrong there.

 

People enjoy my character (support healing) they enjoy my playstyle (passing and greeding to give others a chance at thier class items)

 

I have people friending and asking me back for groups ALL the time. I dont talk like this in game just when somebody is trying to advocate ninjaing as a legitamate practice, i need to speak up and dispell this nonsense.

I'm just doing some testing for myself to see just HOW MUCH extra stats are worth to players vs. to companions. I am testing with heals, because testing with damage is impossible without controlled environments or logs. I can't find any research on how coefficients or anything like that work for companions, so if such knowledge exists, I'm sorry.

 

I am looking at comparative gain here using the same pieces. Both myself and my healing companion use cunning as a primary stat. I am going to switch out Head, body, hands, legs, and feet.

 

I have a talent that gains me 3% healing which I have ignored for this process.

 

As a lethality operative, at level 38, my healing spells have the following stated ranges with none of the above gear on:

 

Kolto Injection:

2.5seconds

Without gear:

1131-1359 (average: 1245)

With gear:

1207-1435 (average: 1321)

Gain of 38hps

 

Kolto Infusion:

1.5seconds

Without gear:

780-931 (average: 856)

With gear:

846-997 (average: 922)

Gain of 44hps

 

 

Companion:

Med Scan:

2sec

487-529 508

537-578 558

Gain of 25hps

Field Dress:

Instant, hot

93-126x4 438

105-138x4 486

32hps gain

Kolto Jolt:

Instant

No tooltip value, but close enough to 530

590

40hps gain

Medical Pack:

Instant

No tooltip value, but close enough to 420 per target

~455

23hps gain per target hit

 

 

Are stats worth less for companions? Yes

Are they worth significantly less to the point that "gearing a companion is pointless and secondary"? Hell no.

 

 

Gearing companions is very important for leveling. The base amounts of companion abilities are significantly less strong than player abilities, there is no question. But when addressing gear, that is not important; what is important is the relative gain for said abilities. If I do 1000 damage and gain 100 damage for a piece of gear, while my companion does 100 base damage and gains 100 damage with the same piece of gear, that piece of gear is equally valuable whether it is on myself or my companion. Given that companions have relatively similar coefficients and stat gains, it stands to reason that gearing them will have almost equal returns for solo leveling as gearing yourself.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Delekii

I just love when people try to tell other people how they should play the game. My other favorite is when they try to convince the developers that the game should be changed just for them.

 

Not only do you have to agree with me but I want the game changed so that you are forced to play the way I want!!!!!

 

well the current system benefits "need alls" and selfish ninjas and leaves team players and decent folk empty handed for thier work (forcing them to the dark side)

 

so well... yes it needs adjustment.

hey Delekii

 

awesome numbers Who knew comp skills get better when you gear them... derp...

 

we are talking about stealing that gear from others to supply your comp when that same gear can come from SOOOO many not ninja sources

This is correct. Technically, we'd want to be using the term "Ninja Rolling", I would think. Or, you could simply say the terminology has evolved with the loot systems.

There's nothing ninja about it.

 

It's one thing to be in bear form (so noone can see you bend down to loot) and click like mad on vindi's corpse and snag all of the drops. It's sneaky. You're a ninja, taking an item and never seen.

 

Rolling need when other people find it inappropriate really has nothing to do with ninjalooting. There's nothing stealthy about it

hey Delekii

 

awesome numbers Who knew comp skills get better when you gear them... derp...

 

we are talking about stealing that gear from others to supply your comp when that same gear can come from SOOOO many not ninja sources

 

Hey random guy incapable of reading.

 

The point was that companion skills get better with gear at close to an equal rate that player characters do; ergo, gearing your companion is equally as important as gearing yourself for any content where you use companions. Gear of an equal value is impossible to obtain, because gear from flashpoints is almost universally the best gear available at a particular level, and certainly the most easily obtainable.

I have never needed on gear for my companion before, but after reading a handful of peoples posts here against rolling need for something my companion needs, I will each time.

 

Thank you for opening my eyes to me passing on loot that I rightfully deserve.

 

This is not sarcastic I am doing it.

I think it's a bit selfish to think that your companion can make better use of that Columi chestpiece than that lvl 50 agent can.

Hey random guy incapable of reading.

 

The point was that companion skills get better with gear at close to an equal rate that player characters do; ergo, gearing your companion is equally as important as gearing yourself for any content where you use companions. Gear of an equal value is impossible to obtain, because gear from flashpoints is almost universally the best gear available at a particular level, and certainly the most easily obtainable.

 

I disagree, i read your post. comps are pixes, non flashpoint gear will suffice.

people are people. I treat them better

Edited January 17, 2012 by tcalusine

I have never needed on gear for my companion before, but after reading a handful of peoples posts here against rolling need for something my companion needs, I will each time.

 

Thank you for opening my eyes to me passing on loot that I rightfully deserve.

 

This is not sarcastic I am doing it.

 

and you essentially came here to say " look at me, I'm a jerk, seriously though..."