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reboot gsf


Broba's Avatar


Broba
03.21.2021 , 08:50 PM | #11
It used to be far worse in terms of leveling ships. Everything cost twice as much and requisition grants were not as easy to come by. Objectively speaking though, it is possible to get kills with a vanilla ship, BUT only after developing a comfortable skill set. Going against gunships going 28-0 (see above) during an introductory round of gsf can be quite deflating I bet. However stick to it, the more you fly and familiarize with maps and ship components the better it will get. As a personal suggestion start with the star guard / rycer and replace rapids with ion cannons after your first match. With absolutely nothing upgraded, this will give you an already formidable offensive output and enough survivability to gain your footing in space combat

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
03.22.2021 , 03:54 AM | #12
I can't add anything that hasn't already been expertly covered. But I will say is this. GSF is not the type of flight sim you can come in smash buttons and compete with veterans. It takes skill, knowledge and tenacity to do well.

What we the community DO NOT like: is people coming into the mode and immediately having a rant about how bad it is when they have zero experience and no qualifications to suggest changes in a mode they know nothing about.

What we the community DO like: is people coming into the game mode, realizing its hard, and asking for help to learn the ropes and get better.
-Luc Nodaro

ForfiniteStories's Avatar


ForfiniteStories
03.22.2021 , 08:18 AM | #13
If you're a new player, I highly recommend flying the Flashfire. It doesn't require upgrades or skill for it is already perfect. And if someone manages to take you down, know that it is of no fault of yours; they were simply cheating. Unless, of course, it is another Flashfire. In that case, they are not a cheater, but a traitor! Try not to get mad about it though, like I have done from time to time. They had no other choice as it is impossible to best a Flashfire otherwise.
"Nothing beats an A-wing." - Tallie Lintra, Battlefront II: Starfighter Assault

Oobidoo's Avatar


Oobidoo
03.22.2021 , 09:35 AM | #14
Quote:
GSF is actually in a good place re: balance.
are you high?

T1F is ridiculosly overpowered as is ion cannon on the quarrel
Quick, decisive action leads to victory - Nak Oorag

Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
03.22.2021 , 12:05 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by ForfiniteStories View Post
If you're a new player, I highly recommend flying the Flashfire. It doesn't require upgrades or skill for it is already perfect. And if someone manages to take you down, know that it is of no fault of yours; they were simply cheating. Unless, of course, it is another Flashfire. In that case, they are not a cheater, but a traitor! Try not to get mad about it though, like I have done from time to time. They had no other choice as it is impossible to best a Flashfire otherwise.
I'd never suggest a new player fly that. If they are new to GSF the T1F is the best thing they can learn on. Scouts are to fragile for new players. The T1F will make them learn how to aim with lasers but have some sturdiness to them, so they won't die in a 2-3 second window. Remember new players won't be paying attention to if they're shields are being hit right away.

I'm taking it as a joke about only a Flashfire can kill a flashfire. Anything can kill any ships, and Flashfires are no exception to this. Of course new players may read your comment and not realize it's a joke.

powerofvoid's Avatar


powerofvoid
03.22.2021 , 07:56 PM | #16
As a recently-new player, I would recommend new players start with this build:

T2F: (Pike/Quell) with:
  • Heavy Laser Cannon (primary weapon): Hitting targets at a distance feels easier and more reliable to me, and that's HLC. This will start out playing second fiddle to proton torpedoes, but as you get better it will become a larger part of your gameplay.
  • Proton Torpedo (secondary weapon): The heaviest-hitting missile, with the longest range. This is your main weapon.
  • EMP Missile (secondary weapon): A faster-locking missile that offers some utility and AoE, and shares the proton torpedo's shield-and-armor penetration. This is a backup weapon.
  • Quick-Charge Shields (shield): This makes you more durable against weapons that don't ignore shields
  • Barrel Roll (engine): This missile break ability may have a long cooldown, but it moves you a long distance before you become vulnerable to missiles again. Aim yourself so you wind up near cover when this ends.
  • Damage Capacitor: This makes your laser do more damage without increasing its energy cost, so you can be less cautious about when you start and stop firing than with a frequency capacitor
  • Efficient Targeting magazine: This makes you lock missiles faster, and missiles are the reason you fly a T2F.
  • Lightweight Armor: Evasion is generally a better defense than the other options
  • Regeneration Thrusters: Engine power is important, and this will get you so much more of it.

I use this with the usual crew:

Pub:
  • Copilot: B-3G9 (Hydrospanner)
  • Offense: B-3G9 (+6% accuracy and 12% missile cooldown reduction)
  • Defense: Nadia Grell or Tanno Vik (+5% evasion, +10% shields)
  • Tactical: Lord Scourge (+3km sensors, +5km communication) or Kendra Novar (+3.5km front sensors, +5km communication)
  • Engineering: C2-N2 (+15% engine power, -13% engine cost)

Imp:
  • Copilot: Blizz (Hydrospanner)
  • Offense: Gault (+6% accuracy and 12% missile cooldown reduction)
  • Defense Vector (+5% evasion, +10% shields)
  • Tactical: Mako (+3km sensors, +5km communication) or Salana Rok (+3.5km front sensors, +5km communication)
  • Engineering: Blizz (+15% engine power, -13% engine cost)

I've heard that the T1F is better than the T2F, but that uses builds that depend far more on lasers than missiles, and missiles feel a lot easier to me.

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
03.22.2021 , 08:25 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Oobidoo View Post
are you high?

T1F is ridiculosly overpowered as is ion cannon on the quarrel
Explain, elaborate, give details and justifications. Well, do that if you want Devs to take you seriously and make changes.


Quote: Originally Posted by powerofvoid View Post
I've heard that the T1F is better than the T2F, but that uses builds that depend far more on lasers than missiles, and missiles feel a lot easier to me.
They're fairly close. Missiles ARE easier for most new players. In high skill level play, which ship is stronger depends on build, on teamwork, on team composition, and enough other factors that you'd have to get very specific scenarios to get wide agreement on one being slightly better than the other in a particular case.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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Oobidoo's Avatar


Oobidoo
03.23.2021 , 04:43 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by powerofvoid View Post
As a recently-new player, I would recommend new players start with this build:

T2F: (Pike/Quell) with:
[*] EMP Missile (secondary weapon): A faster-locking missile that offers some utility and AoE, and shares the proton torpedo's shield-and-armor penetration. This is a backup weapon.[*] Quick-Charge Shields (shield): This makes you more durable against weapons that don't ignore shields[*] Damage Capacitor: This makes your laser do more damage without increasing its energy cost, so you can be less cautious about when you start and stop firing than with a frequency capacitor.

Agreed, except id advocate for:

- Ion over EMP missiles
- Feedack shield once your used to flying it
- Range capacitor instead of dmg

I've heard that the T1F is better than the T2F, but that uses builds that depend far more on lasers than missiles, and missiles feel a lot easier to me.

T2F > T1F if your lag sux imo.

Hopefully some newbie reads this and doesnt have to suffer the pain of working out whats good lol
PS Buff bombers
Quick, decisive action leads to victory - Nak Oorag

Oobidoo's Avatar


Oobidoo
03.23.2021 , 07:40 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Explain, elaborate, give details and justifications. Well, do that if you want Devs to take you seriously and make changes.
Why T1F is op:

- only slightly slower than scouts
- only slightly less agile/mobile than scouts, ie, turn rate, engine power/regen
- highest dps and from 8km range (and can choose from two super high dps primay options)
- tankier than everything except shield specced bombers

so bascially they have no weakness in comparison to other options.

Why the T1GS ion cannon is op:

- Highest range
- Very high damage
- ~50% dmg to 3-4 enemies within 5-6km (AoE) - this often wipes out a complete nest of drones, etc without u even knowing theyre there
- each hit takes 1/2 ur engine AND weapon power
- AND either a 40% slow or 65% energy regen reduction

way too much for one weapon type.

It's not hard to work out whats op when the top 2-3 damage and kills of the vast majority of games are double or triple everyone elses stats and its either a T1F or a T1GS.

Everyone knows this which is why i didnt bother writing it out in the first place. T1F and Ion cannon are the ranked pvp equivilent of skank tank juggs.
Quick, decisive action leads to victory - Nak Oorag

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
03.24.2021 , 10:15 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Oobidoo View Post
Why T1F is op:
- only slightly slower than scouts
- only slightly less agile/mobile than scouts, ie, turn rate, engine power/regen
- highest dps and from 8km range (and can choose from two super high dps primay options)
- tankier than everything except shield specced bombers

so bascially they have no weakness in comparison to other options.

Why the T1GS ion cannon is op:

- Highest range
- Very high damage
- ~50% dmg to 3-4 enemies within 5-6km (AoE) - this often wipes out a complete nest of drones, etc without u even knowing theyre there
- each hit takes 1/2 ur engine AND weapon power
- AND either a 40% slow or 65% energy regen reduction

way too much for one weapon type.
This is a good start, it's the sort of list of concerns that the Devs tend to take seriously

They may be a bit confused by the following things though:

Why a ship designed for a dogfighting role shouldn't have the speed and maneuverabiltiy to dogfight (and which is the exact same as the T2F which you aren't complaining about).

Why the DPS is to high when math indicates that it's broadly in line with other ships, this came up when the piledriver technique was first discovered, and there's an old thread somewhere here that goes over DPS comparisons between piledriver technique and things like Targeting Telemetry fueled burst damage. Or was it on Discord? It was a long time ago and I don't remember.

Which Primaries does the T1F have that are "super high" dps? Mostly it has the longest range and easiest to use primaries, but they're at the bottom of the list for Primary DPS. Not by a lot, but the short range weapons get higher DPS to compensate for being harder to use.

They're going to be VERY surprised that the T1F is tankier than a T3F, and perhaps slightly surprised that you find a 100 point difference between the T1F and T2F significant. It COULD be significant, but explain why a 2.5% difference in health matters.

The other strikes really aren't any weaker than the T1F, and both of the other strikes bring more team utility than the T1F can. Do all strikes need to be nerfed? For that matter the T2F can top the leaderboard with considerably less skill and effort than it takes in the T1F, is that not a problem? If it is what should be done?

For the Ion Railgun Range and damage are about the same as the other railguns. Ion Railgun DPS drops by about 75% once shields are down, so it doesn't really do well after the first, or maybe second shot on a target. If Slug can do 1866 damage to hull, what's the problem with Ion doing 1800 to shields?

The Ion AOE splash damage has a distinct animation and sound. It's not a stealth weapon. Are the animation and sound not obvious enough? What would make it easier for players to spot that they just got hit by ion splash (other than playing hundreds or thousands of games and getting hit by it enough times to recognize it)? Brighter animation? Longer sound? Specific warning icon?

There are a lot of stronger drain/disable abilities in GSF. Why is Ion Railgun's too much? The range? The rate at which it can be spammed? The duration of the effects?

Also how should the T1G defend itself? Part of the design of Ion Railgun is that if an opponent gets close the gunship is in big trouble. Ion Railgun drain and slow make for a competitive match against other ship classes by giving the gunship time for another railgun shot. What would keep ships from just flying up to gunships and obliterating them if the Ion effects were nerfed hard?


Change is rare and slow in GSF, but the Devs do listen to the player community. You can persuade them to make changes, but you have to make really strong and well supported arguments. It also helps to have your numbers correct when asserting that one component or ship is tankier, has more DPS, etc. Numbers aren't everything though, you can convince the Devs that even with worse numbers a component is still too strong due to game mechanics.


Quote:

It's not hard to work out whats op when the top 2-3 damage and kills of the vast majority of games are double or triple everyone elses stats and its either a T1F or a T1GS.
You can ask around to other experienced players, but as one of the people who is sometimes up there at the top of the board, I have to say that at least for ME, the ship tends not to matter. It's a product of how much skill matters in GSF combined with a very simple matchmaking system that routinely makes poorly balanced teams.

My list of the ships that this doesn't happen on are the T2G and the powerdive bomber, but that's only because I'm not a fan of their playstyles, and almost never fly them.

It's easiest on any gunship with Slug Railgun equipped, and the T2F. The T1F is probably 5th place. The scouts and T3F are maybe in the next bracket, and the bombers are at the bottom. Unless the other team has a whole bunch of people who don't know how to deal with mines and drones, in which case a bomber can easily jump up to the top of the list.


As for the prevalence of the T1F and T1G in particular:

For the T1F it's mostly because it's a fairly easy to understand ship and it's a default ship. So everyone has one, and it's usually the ship that people have the most experience and requisition in. You see it a lot because more people have it than have other ships, and more people know how to fly it decently.

For the T1G, it was a starter ship for some people, but that was so long ago that the effect has probably faded. For the gunships anything with slug railgun CAN work, but if you look at the other two gunships, why take them? The T3G is much more likely to survive under pressure, IF the pilot is highly skilled at defensive flying. What percentage of games typically have high skill gunship pilots flying against a team with strike and scout pilots skilled enough to put them under heavy pressure? The T2G does have HLCs and Proton Torps, which are good components, but do you really want to use them instead of sitting there plinking away with Slug? Ion Railgun brings significant team utility, and at the moment the other gunships don't have much to offer in comparison, unless you get a match where the average skill on both sides is pretty high. Basically to motivate gunship diversity in games we'd need to see higher average skill so that the extra survivability of the T3G becomes attractive again.

Quote:
Everyone knows this which is why i didnt bother writing it out in the first place. T1F and Ion cannon are the ranked pvp equivilent of skank tank juggs.
Well, I didn't know any of it. The Devs probably didn't either. That's why well thought out and detailed descriptions of the problems are so useful for the Devs. Even if you get numbers wrong, they still care about the FEEL of the game and the player experience. The better you can explain how and why things feel wrong, the more likely they are to make changes, and the more likely the changes are to improve how playing the game feels.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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