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Fix ALL Flashpoints for 7.0


DeannaVoyager's Avatar


DeannaVoyager
11.27.2021 , 01:08 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Phaedruss View Post
Tell me then, how are these not exploits? I should be forced to sit and wait for a Stealth character to get to the checkpoint and then kill myself to res at the checkpoint - and spend most of the time in the flashpoint standing around? Im selfish for wanting these loopholes fixed? My bad for wanting to play the game and not wanting others getting an advantage for running flashpoints that came out 10 years ago by abusing exploits - and running those flashpoints over and over and over again. Group finder is supposed to randomized. It's selfish that these loopholes entitle players to ruin the experience of doing group content just so they can get rewards faster than they were intended to get - this isn't a case of 'play your way' - these are broken flashpoints mixed with broken gearing systems that essentially break the entire group finder system.

And frankly I don't need your sympathy. Didn't ask for it. I don't have to be happy with how it currently is and am free to voice my complaint here.
Nope, you are definitely not getting my sympathy. I don't have that for people who haven't learned the basics of social interaction such as playing nicely with others. Most people learn that in early childhood, but I guess there are exceptions.

And yes, feel free to voice your fantasy over and over again. It won't change the fact that skipping trash mobs is NOT an exploit. You may want it to be, but it's not.

Just learn to play the game, understand that you are not the only one in a group. If you want to kill all trash mobs you need to solo it or find like minded people to group up with you. Trying to force the rest of a random group to do what YOU want to do is called abuse. Luckily it only needs two people to kick abusers.

Phaedruss's Avatar


Phaedruss
11.28.2021 , 12:57 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by JediQuaker View Post
Yes, it's actually a thing. It's mainly the result of the fact that many flashpoints have 'rez' points - that is, points at which you rez if the group has made it to that phase.

For example, if you get to the first boss in Copero, you rez there if you die. So a stealther can just sneak to the boss and then everyone just commits suicide (/stuck or jump off the dock) and they spawn at the first boss and skip everything up to it.

About the only way to 'fix' that would be to eliminate the rez points and have everyone respawn at the start.
Edit: or (as pointed out below) have the checkpoints only work after the boss is defeated, as some already are.

There are also many instances where you can just run through mobs and they will eventually stop chasing you. The final section of Cadimemu is a good example. You can run all the way from the bottom of the big elevator (or even before that) to the final boss room, dragging the mobs until they give up.

It's sort of a balancing act between those who want to experience the entire FP and those who just want to get their CQ done. If you want to experience the entire FP, I'd suggest you do it in Solo mode or with a group of friends and/or guildmates. If you go through GF you can expect to do all sorts of skips, etc.
You can word it however you want, but these skips are exploits. It's abusing mechanics to skip content. Wanting these loopholes closed is not expecting too much or me being unreasonable. It's expecting the devs to maintain the health of the game by addressing bad design issues in the flashpoints. I'm not saying that people should be punished or that they are bad players for abusing them, it's a side effect of them being broken for so long and not the players fault. This doesn't mean they should remain broken for the sake of people saving 10 to 20min on a run to complete their conquest faster - this is where the balance issues come into play for a gearing system that rewards for doing any flashpoint. Those rewards don't scale with the longer flashpoints or flashpoints with less loopholes and they become content no one runs because the reward isn't there for time spent - why spend more time in a flashpoint for the exact same rewards that introductory flashpoints like HS provide in half to a third of the time?

7.0 will only mildly address this. After people complete their 3 forced weeklies to get their guaranteed rewards, it's back to farming the broken flashpoints over and over to increase rewards with time spent. This problem will persist.

*edit - it also creates a highly toxic system that rewards players for kicking or leaving slower players behind, in the public group finder system meant to make it easier to experience group content in an MMO, because endgame players farming conquest only care about completing it as fast as possible. For the people that have compared this to wows mythic + system... mythic + is not tied to group finder, you have to find private preformed groups. New players signing up for group finder are not forced to play with endgame players trying to maximize their rewards. Mythic + is also only for the most current dungeons (or occasionally some timewalking) and in these dungeons there are no exploits that allow you to skip 75%+ of the combat content in them...
I'm sorry, but I don't pay a subscription to not play the game and having a group finder system that encourages and rewards for not playing the game is toxic in nature. It's similar to systems that reward players for just being in the content, where you see afk players joining to soak rewards - but ultimately just ruin the content. It is exploitative and toxic. This is entirely based on bad design and can be fixed.
A lot of the arguments here are basically acknowledging these problems exist, but that they are legitimate and designed to work this way. Again, similar to afk soakers in other games - 'going afk in this content is a totally legitimate way to play, you should learn how to play the game or play solo content...'
Dark Lord Muad'Rautha Kallig - The Forcewalker -
The power to destroy a thing, is the absolute control over it.
DELAY THE EXPANSION

DeannaVoyager's Avatar


DeannaVoyager
11.28.2021 , 01:31 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Phaedruss View Post
You can word it however you want, but these skips are exploits.
No they are not.

Ulrah's Avatar


Ulrah
11.28.2021 , 01:35 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by DeannaVoyager View Post
No they are not.
Can you back this up? You haven't given any information or opinion past this...
The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free.
- Ulrah

Townowi's Avatar


Townowi
11.28.2021 , 09:54 PM | #65
Here are two possible solutions I could get behind:

1) Remove trash as required to balance certain FPs (and also lower the trash requirements for bonus bosses, if applicable; Ilum and Maelstrom especially could benefit from only requiring a trash pull or two extra to unlock the bonus boss, rather than clearing the trash essentially in full up to the bonus boss), especially from the longest FPs, such as Chiss or Nathema

2) Split GF into multiple sub-queues (it's widely acknowledged that FPs just aren't uniformly hard):

- Express being Hammer, Athiss, Esseles/BT and RR (you could make a case for Mando Raiders to be in the express queue, or in the basic queue)
- Basic being Kuat, Taral 5, Maelstrom (pub), Boarding Party, Foundry (imp), Directive 7, Ilum, False Emp (you could also make a case for Labs or Core)
- Advanced being all others

Each sub-queue would then have different levels or amounts of rewards. Might require more effort than increasing the aggro radius on some of the more readily skippable mobs, or removing trash from some of the longer FPs, but it may address some of the issues with rewards vs time spent.

As applied to ops, this would mean splitting between the lair queue (single-boss ops) and raid queue (multi-boss ops), with rewards scaled accordingly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ulrah View Post
Why are there any trash NPCs if we are just intended to skip them all???
Which is exactly why I'd rather want a trash-free FP, but only if the story premise makes sense for it to be trash-free. However, story premises that can make a trash-free FP work are heavily dependent on either location/boss characterization or quests that take place beforehand. Here's a list of possible story premises that can make a trash-free FP work:

- A diversion drew all the would-be trash away (like the last part of KotFE Ch11 but more effective)
- The bosses can't keep their minions supplied (ideally, if it's supposed to be part of the main story, you'd want a preceding quest to be about cutting the bosses' supply lines)
- A weapon was fired, or a curse was cast, at the location against which bosses are immune, but would-be trash isn't (if a curse, killing the boss would likely be key to breaking the curse, or hold the key to breaking it)
- The bosses would prefer to lull you into a false sense of security until the player reaches a point deemed strategically important enough for the boss to fight you there (I'd rather have had the first 2/3 of Chiss play out that way over what we actually got)
- The bosses deem trash useless based on prior experience (only works when you fought the boss before in a prior encounter, doesn't need to be another FP, though)
- The bosses are the last survivors of some calamity
- The FP takes place in some derelict (such as post-SoR Ziost or a Theoretika-like)
- You wanted to save an area from an attack but the bosses killed off the residents before you arrive

As for bonus bosses: have them drop recipes to retired decos or outfits (and also the return of bonus boss-based CQ objectives, with harder bonus bosses yielding more points).
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Phaedruss's Avatar


Phaedruss
11.28.2021 , 11:44 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Townowi View Post
Here are two possible solutions I could get behind:
While I'd rather have flashpoints with no trash mobs than have flashpoints riddled with exploits to skip that content - I don't see this as a solution in my opinion, but this would at least be acceptable. With the other part though, splitting up the queues - the reason vet queues are almost instant pop for everyone is that everyone that queues for vet is put into the same pool. This makes it so people don't have to wait for an hour just to do a vet, splitting that up would just create longer queue times for one category and the one that is most efficient will still be the most used, so you'd end up with a category no one used because of longer queue times.

Imo the best solution is just to fix the flashpoints. Any kind of bandaid solution will not fix the problem and create problems elsewhere. Players just need to realize that dungeons in any game are a commitment - they most usually cannot be completed in 10min, while the rest are 30min. In the current and new gearing systems this creates incentive to abuse the broken flashpoints to maximize rewards.
What it comes down to, is that when the game was created - you couldn't get good gear from the introductory flashpoints. So them being more forgiving and easier wasn't an issue; larger gaps between groups of mobs with said mobs having less aggro range, etc.. when you mix these introductory flashpoints into the same category as endgame flashpoints this is what you get, people abusing the introductory flashpoints. The other is issue is how bad the engine for the game is (modified city of heroes engine.) and a lack of testing for exploits at launch and a lack of fixing exploits in them as they were found over the years. My biggest fear for these problems would be that they are unfixable because the current devs have no actual way of patching them up because of how old and bad some of the legacy code might be. If this is the case then a lot of the old flashpoints need to be taken out of group finder - like coilocoid war games - and the new flashpoints that are fixable need to have the exploits patched up to keep from having these problems pop up again.
Dark Lord Muad'Rautha Kallig - The Forcewalker -
The power to destroy a thing, is the absolute control over it.
DELAY THE EXPANSION

Townowi's Avatar


Townowi
11.29.2021 , 07:48 AM | #67
Personally I feel removing trash from those FPs with exploits (at least the trash that can actually be avoided with said exploits, and then exploits become pointless as such) would be easier to implement than separate queues with separate rewards; in fact people often complain about FPs having too much trash (outside of Blood Hunt or maybe Core).
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JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
11.29.2021 , 08:27 AM | #68
Um, whuh? The solution to skipping the trash mobs is to remove the trash mobs? That makes no sense. 🙄
Hold water, a sieve may not, but hold another sieve, it will - Yoda..

DeannaVoyager's Avatar


DeannaVoyager
11.29.2021 , 09:09 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Townowi View Post
Personally I feel removing trash from those FPs with exploits (at least the trash that can actually be avoided with said exploits, and then exploits become pointless as such) would be easier to implement than separate queues with separate rewards; in fact people often complain about FPs having too much trash (outside of Blood Hunt or maybe Core).
Skipping trash mobs is not an exploit. There are space between the mobs so that you can run between them without attacking, and it is not an exploit. There are crates and elevators which allow you to go forward without having to kill the trash before next boss. No exploit there either. We have classes that can go stealth and they don't have to kill everything, no exploit there. If skipping trash would be considered an exploit, BW would have fixed them years ago and banned everyone who skips trash mobs. I know there is this guy who keeps saying it's an exploit because he got kicked from a group who wanted to skip the trash, but he is just salty because he couldn't force people to run the FP his way.

Skipping trash is basic game tactics, and usually people want to skip as much as it's conveniently possible because they've played the same fps hundreds of times. Skipping trash has become a norm and it is common courtesy to go along with the group. Most people have the social skills to understand it and getting into group with them is always a pleasure.

Putting people who want to kill everything into separate queue would solve the problem for the rest of us: they wouldn't be in the normal queue anymore causing friction and drama. Their queue would be really slow though, but considering they also want to go through the flashpoint as slowly as possible, that shouldn't be a problem.

I wouldn't mind removing some of the trash either. Some are fun to kill, if you get them grouped up nicely for aoe. The ones that root or stun or knock you around are just annoying and that adds no value to the gaming experience. It only makes people want to avoid the flashpoint or at least skip the trash.

Phaedruss's Avatar


Phaedruss
11.29.2021 , 10:46 AM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by DeannaVoyager View Post
Skipping trash mobs is not an exploit. There are space between the mobs so that you can run between them without attacking, and it is not an exploit. There are crates and elevators which allow you to go forward without having to kill the trash before next boss. No exploit there either. We have classes that can go stealth and they don't have to kill everything, no exploit there. If skipping trash would be considered an exploit, BW would have fixed them years ago and banned everyone who skips trash mobs. I know there is this guy who keeps saying it's an exploit because he got kicked from a group who wanted to skip the trash, but he is just salty because he couldn't force people to run the FP his way.

Skipping trash is basic game tactics, and usually people want to skip as much as it's conveniently possible because they've played the same fps hundreds of times. Skipping trash has become a norm and it is common courtesy to go along with the group. Most people have the social skills to understand it and getting into group with them is always a pleasure.

Putting people who want to kill everything into separate queue would solve the problem for the rest of us: they wouldn't be in the normal queue anymore causing friction and drama. Their queue would be really slow though, but considering they also want to go through the flashpoint as slowly as possible, that shouldn't be a problem.

I wouldn't mind removing some of the trash either. Some are fun to kill, if you get them grouped up nicely for aoe. The ones that root or stun or knock you around are just annoying and that adds no value to the gaming experience. It only makes people want to avoid the flashpoint or at least skip the trash.
On some of these you can easily skip 75% or more of the flashpoints, this is NOT intended. That is abusing mechanics to skip stuff. You saying it's not, doesn't it make it so.
I've never played an mmo where you could skip the combat content of dungeons to this extent - if it was intended, you would see these exploits in all flashpoints. Again these are mainly old flashpoints that are abused - why can't you skip 75% of all flashpoints? This is an imbalance caused by... guess what? Exploits!

Thank you for repeating my words... when exploits become the meta, they are the norm and people feel entitled to keep using them. You again are a prime example. Just because it's the norm doesn't mean it's not an exploit... just because everyone abuses them doesn't mean they aren't exploits - on the contrary, the damages they do with the gearing systems this game has in place and are putting in (mixed with lvl sync) is far more than if only a few people were doing it.
You say you are sick of running the same flashpoints, then stop *********** abusing the introductory flashpoints! You won't though. Again, why would you spend 30min for the same rewards exploiting gives in 10min?
Dark Lord Muad'Rautha Kallig - The Forcewalker -
The power to destroy a thing, is the absolute control over it.
DELAY THE EXPANSION