I didnt see the Dev stream on 5.0 and i haven't found anything so far about the crafting for 5.0 but i'm assuming, That Augments and Kits are going to have a new level as well as the rest of the crew skills.

Can anyone confirm this or point to a link that talks about it?

War hero schematics dont contain expertise, i fail to see your concern

Probably talking about War Hero color crystals, that offer +41 Expertise.

and to answer the question, they will probably be converted to mastery. So instead of having crit, power, endurance, expertise, we will have crit, power, endurance, and mastery.

I didnt see the Dev stream on 5.0 and i haven't found anything so far about the crafting for 5.0 but i'm assuming, That Augments and Kits are going to have a new level as well as the rest of the crew skills.

Can anyone confirm this or point to a link that talks about it?

There are indeed sources that we can't mention, but to answer your question, yes there will be.

Probably talking about War Hero color crystals, that offer +41 Expertise.

 

and to answer the question, they will probably be converted to mastery. So instead of having crit, power, endurance, expertise, we will have crit, power, endurance, and mastery.

oh yeah my mistake, misread the post. Sorry

@Kazz_Devlin,

Maybe you should take a moment to understand what crafting is defined as: (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/craft)

• an activity that involves making something in a skillful way
  
• a job or activity that requires special skill.
  
• an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill <the carpenter's craft> <the craft of writing plays> <crafts such as pottery, carpentry, and sewing>
  

There is nothing in those definitions of crafting (or any other from ANY resource) that specifically states the items crafted must be unique and/or special. Just because a potter crafts pottery or a sewer sews, or a basketweaver weaves baskets does not mean every item is special or unique and that only they can craft them. Yes, in the real world, because people are imperfect, each time a potter, sewer, or basketweaver makes something no matter how hard they try to make it identical to the previous it is not. But that does not make those items unique and special it just makes them different.

In fact an artist friend of mine separates art and craft as just that: art is the activity of creating something unique and special, while craft is the activity of making stuff usually repetitively and most commonly to make money.

@Kazz_Devlin,

 

Maybe you should take a moment to understand what crafting is defined as: (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/craft)

 

• an activity that involves making something in a skillful way
  
• a job or activity that requires special skill.
  
• an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill <the carpenter's craft> <the craft of writing plays> <crafts such as pottery, carpentry, and sewing>
  

 

There is nothing in those definitions of crafting (or any other from ANY resource) that specifically states the items crafted must be unique and/or special. Just because a potter crafts pottery or a sewer sews, or a basketweaver weaves baskets does not mean every item is special or unique and that only they can craft them. Yes, in the real world, because people are imperfect, each time a potter, sewer, or basketweaver makes something no matter how hard they try to make it identical to the previous it is not. But that does not make those items unique and special it just makes them different.

 

In fact an artist friend of mine separates art and craft as just that: art is the activity of creating something unique and special, while craft is the activity of making stuff usually repetitively and most commonly to make money.

Actually it does!

Lets go to thesaurus.com and enter unique and hit search and whats the first word that pops up in the list Different. (psst they mean the same thing! It's okay I understand your probably still in school) but maybe you should take a moment to understand what unique means before commenting next time!

What your friend thinks is NOT fact even if he is an artist i am sorry that's opinion. It is completely possible to create something that is unique and special because by your own admission humans can never reproduce something exactly the same yet your repeating a process thus its repetitive yet this in no way inhibits one from making a living doing something. (Not the same in SWTOR Virtual world were replicated items are literally things that are identical)

Further more your comparison is apples to oranges now granted when i posted this I assumed (bad me) that most would have the intellectual acumen to understand I was referring to a virtual system most commonly seen in MMO's in which the predominant reason one would do so is to earn some monetary value or perhaps notoriety not real world crafting /skills and trades. Traditionally most crafting systems and the really best IMHO allow the player to create items that people want because they are unique or (different) or offer the best value because of stats or materials used. Now to your list, since this is a virtual experience there is no real skill that the player has that affects the out come of items produced. While it is true level does all players of equal level produce products exactly the same. As far as requiring a special skill well if everyone who crafts said items have the same skill whats special about it? Your last item in the "list" is just not pertinent because none of those things are present in game

Kazz_Devlin,

It has dawned on me that what you want is something that all the MMOs I have ever played - save SWG - simply do not provide.

First let me state, that I am not still in school. I have been playing MMOs for 17 years.

In the MMOs I have played, all (except SWG) have had crafting systems where everyone crafts the same stuff. Furthermore, that stuff got/gets placed into some sort of interface (ALA GTN) where the buyer and seller do not know each other from Adam.

And you're right, crafters should see more than just being self-sufficient; they should see money making potential in crafting. But what differentiates buyers and sellers is quite simple: sellers are willing to invest play time to develop their characters' crafting skills. Sellers see the money making potential at the end of the tunnel, buyers either do not see that potential or do not care enough about it to want to do anything about it. This is why undifferentiated crafting systems are still good money makers: there are far more "buyers" than "sellers"; a crafting system does not have to have unique stuff to be extremely profitable. However, it does require a quantity over quality mentality:

• quantity: produce a lot of stuff for low cost to sell for overall lower value, but is in extremely high demand so one sells a lot of them even with competition
  
• quality: produce fewer high cost items to sell for overall higher value, but demand is more limited for several reasons (knowledge that said item exists in the first place, the lack of supply, the price to acquire the item), but there is limited competition so those who do want it have to come to you to get it.
  

And I have experienced the notoriety you crave, not from crafting but from providing a service: long story short, when I played EverQuest (EQ1) total strangers whom I buffed in the past would ask me to buff them again. The point being that these players and I met (in game) face-to-face and I provided a service for them. In SWG, one's notoriety for crafting special items came from face-to-face engagement. I gain that notoriety within my circle of friends and guildmates, they know that if they need something crafted I can usually provide it, but outside that circle not so much. Once in a very long while I will receive a whisper saying, "I bought X from you a while back, can you craft me some more?"

Lastly, SWG had "classes" totally dedicated to crafting (yes I know SWG was a classless system; but if one did not invest everything into crafting skills (and specific crafting skills at that) then one would never be able to produce those unique items). A sandbox MMO can support that. A themepark MMO (like SWTOR) cannot.

 

Lastly, SWG had "classes" totally dedicated to crafting (yes I know SWG was a classless system; but if one did not invest everything into crafting skills (and specific crafting skills at that) then one would never be able to produce those unique items). A sandbox MMO can support that. A themepark MMO (like SWTOR) cannot.

Going to disagree on this last point. A themepark could do a little more on crafting if they wanted.

Example: Instead of making us buy the dyes for the outfits have the outfits crafted and provide a color wheel that you could apply the colors to it. Oh I know that would take away the need for a cartel shop since the crafters would be making the outfits but honesty that would make more sense except BW would not be benefiting from people spending money.

The same could be done with the furniture needed. It could be done but it would have had to be done at launch. I don't mind the companions getting the materials but I do miss the way I could craft outfits in a color I choose and not one that was chosen by the company and the fact most of the nice outfits are cartel shop only.

Just so we're clear, there are *no* unique items in mmos (or computer games in general). There are a fixed number of possible items (Nc). Each item has a fixed number of variables. Each of these variables has a fixed number of values. It's pretty easy (although somewhat messy in ASCII) to figure out this number.

Games may differ in how craftable items are parameterized, but crafters can only make what the devs allow. Games may differ in how many possible items there are (even at a 100% RE chance, if Borderlans 2 had crafting, I wouldn't want to try to get every schematic, lol). Even in swtor, I never bothered to get *every* possible schematic.

And that brings me to the next point -- even within the system, not all items are equally desirable. Regardless of how customizable a game is, players will focus on what is perceived to be BiS (Best in Slot), which offer little stat variation for BiS (and swtor now has less variation than at launch).

Furthermore, consider what is available -- the vast majority of craftable items in swtor are stat-based -- most "art" (graphics, sounds, etc.) are obtained in-game or through the CM. If BW allowed anything near BiS stats to be soid in the CM, there would be (valid) complaints about P2Win from many more players than complain about the variety in crafting, so them keeping a near monopoly on aesthetic items is acceptable to me.

And this goes to psandak's point (with which I agree 100%): Crafting is not Art. Crafting is about making things, and swtor's crafting system simply focuses on making *useful* things (i.e., things with stats) over aesthetically different things. Swtor has reduced the number of stats (and removed choice from the player skill trees) to make the game simpler to understand (and balance) [snide: although many would argue that the devs are still having problems with the current complexity], so there just isn't that much variation. But there are still some schematics that players have to work to obtain, and there is *enough* variability that not every crafter easily learns every schematic, so crafters can still distinguish themselves (monetarily, at least) by the choices of what they learn.

While this may not seem that "non-fiscally rewarding" as a solo player, if you are in a guild, you'll notice that not *everybody* has every craft maxed BiS, and while the GTN may be anonymous, dedicated crafters are (or at least in the guilds I've been in) usually popular.

Kazz_Devlin,

 

It has dawned on me that what you want is something that all the MMOs I have ever played - save SWG - simply do not provide.

 

First let me state, that I am not still in school. I have been playing MMOs for 17 years.

 

In the MMOs I have played, all (except SWG) have had crafting systems where everyone crafts the same stuff. Furthermore, that stuff got/gets placed into some sort of interface (ALA GTN) where the buyer and seller do not know each other from Adam.

 

And you're right, crafters should see more than just being self-sufficient; they should see money making potential in crafting. But what differentiates buyers and sellers is quite simple: sellers are willing to invest play time to develop their characters' crafting skills. Sellers see the money making potential at the end of the tunnel, buyers either do not see that potential or do not care enough about it to want to do anything about it. This is why undifferentiated crafting systems are still good money makers: there are far more "buyers" than "sellers"; a crafting system does not have to have unique stuff to be extremely profitable. However, it does require a quantity over quality mentality:

 

• quantity: produce a lot of stuff for low cost to sell for overall lower value, but is in extremely high demand so one sells a lot of them even with competition
  
• quality: produce fewer high cost items to sell for overall higher value, but demand is more limited for several reasons (knowledge that said item exists in the first place, the lack of supply, the price to acquire the item), but there is limited competition so those who do want it have to come to you to get it.
  

 

And I have experienced the notoriety you crave, not from crafting but from providing a service: long story short, when I played EverQuest (EQ1) total strangers whom I buffed in the past would ask me to buff them again. The point being that these players and I met (in game) face-to-face and I provided a service for them. In SWG, one's notoriety for crafting special items came from face-to-face engagement. I gain that notoriety within my circle of friends and guildmates, they know that if they need something crafted I can usually provide it, but outside that circle not so much. Once in a very long while I will receive a whisper saying, "I bought X from you a while back, can you craft me some more?"

 

Lastly, SWG had "classes" totally dedicated to crafting (yes I know SWG was a classless system; but if one did not invest everything into crafting skills (and specific crafting skills at that) then one would never be able to produce those unique items). A sandbox MMO can support that. A themepark MMO (like SWTOR) cannot.

Well i have to disagree a bit because there were people that excelled at crafting on our server back in the day mainly because he chose to invest in mining top ingredients he spent the capital he got in best crafting tools which yielded highest stats on gear for armor so if you pvp'd you wanted the very best for that ever so slight edge and were willing to pay for it. That alone created huge demand for his product. Yes, you are also correct in that you had to devote your profession into crafting but seeing as back in the day we had 2 or 3 alts anyways not a big deal. Since the devs don't want the players being able to improve upon stats the only aspect players could improve upon is appearance i.e. allow player base to alter or changes appearance of armor, weapons , furniture could very well lead to A.) Some armor and weapons that are not god awfully butt ugly and hideous looking. B.) natural competition which would encourage even more unique and innovative items. How you'd implement it haven't given that much thought however, my original point still stands and by your own admission a sandbox MMO can support it and a theme park cannot. Thus SWTOR cannot by it's very nature have a true crafting system only a replication system in which every player produces cookie cutter items that don't distinguish themselves in anyway other than the fact that one is chooses to place theirs on the GTN cheaper than the others on the GTN. It was a Gimmick, it is a gimmick designed to entice those that played sandbox MMO's.

Example: Instead of making us buy the dyes for the outfits have the outfits crafted and provide a color wheel that you could apply the colors to it. Oh I know that would take away the need for a cartel shop since the crafters would be making the outfits but honesty that would make more sense except BW would not be benefiting from people spending money.

 

The same could be done with the furniture needed. It could be done but it would have had to be done at launch. I don't mind the companions getting the materials but I do miss the way I could craft outfits in a color I choose and not one that was chosen by the company and the fact most of the nice outfits are cartel shop only.

Well, the selection of outfits at launch was pretty low, especially modifiable gear, so even if a color wheel had been available, it wouldn't have been spectacular (especially only being able to modify two of the channels like we have now).

And that wouldn't take away the need for a cartel shop -- the cartel shop was introduced as a way to keep the game alive because of low sub rate. While many people (including me) were disappointed at the lack of customization, that's not the main reason subs were "below expectations". So if BW couldn't sell cosmetics (since you'd like them available in game), they'd have to sell stats -- i.e., go P2W. If you look at the backlash any time BW introduces anything looking like it smells like P2W (Grade 7 ship gear, Shroud Cubes, etc.), you'd realize that that wouldn't have worked quite as well.

Finally, this is an mmo, so there are plenty of performance factors to consider. In a standalone game, modding the art files doesn't [usually] have much of an impact on performance. Assuming my art files sizes are the same size (resolution, etc.), my computer won't know the difference. But in an mmo, where my computer has to display everybody around me, limiting the number of models and variants (dye channels) reduces the possible number of additional textures my computer has to handle (and color would be part of this). Furthermore, the larger the number of parameters, the more client/server communications needed to send that information. And BW's modified Hero Engine isn't noted for high performance (depending on implementation, many possible technical issues could be reduced).

Just sayin.

Going to disagree on this last point. A themepark could do a little more on crafting if they wanted.

 

Example: Instead of making us buy the dyes for the outfits have the outfits crafted and provide a color wheel that you could apply the colors to it. Oh I know that would take away the need for a cartel shop since the crafters would be making the outfits but honesty that would make more sense except BW would not be benefiting from people spending money.

 

The same could be done with the furniture needed. It could be done but it would have had to be done at launch. I don't mind the companions getting the materials but I do miss the way I could craft outfits in a color I choose and not one that was chosen by the company and the fact most of the nice outfits are cartel shop only.

And really this is the point that I am making SWTOR has said they didn't want player base being able to make the stats okay fine then let us CRAFT the appearance or the way things look.

...he got in best crafting tools which yielded highest stats on gear for armor so if you pvp'd you wanted the very best for that ever so slight edge and were willing to pay for it. That alone created huge demand for his product.

That alone is an excellent argument for *not* implementing such a system.

Well, the selection of outfits at launch was pretty low, especially modifiable gear, so even if a color wheel had been available, it wouldn't have been spectacular (especially only being able to modify two of the channels like we have now).

 

And that wouldn't take away the need for a cartel shop -- the cartel shop was introduced as a way to keep the game alive because of low sub rate. While many people (including me) were disappointed at the lack of customization, that's not the main reason subs were "below expectations". So if BW couldn't sell cosmetics (since you'd like them available in game), they'd have to sell stats -- i.e., go P2W. If you look at the backlash any time BW introduces anything looking like it smells like P2W (Grade 7 ship gear, Shroud Cubes, etc.), you'd realize that that wouldn't have worked quite as well.

 

Finally, this is an mmo, so there are plenty of performance factors to consider. In a standalone game, modding the art files doesn't [usually] have much of an impact on performance. Assuming my art files sizes are the same size (resolution, etc.), my computer won't know the difference. But in an mmo, where my computer has to display everybody around me, limiting the number of models and variants (dye channels) reduces the possible number of additional textures my computer has to handle (and color would be part of this). Furthermore, the larger the number of parameters, the more client/server communications needed to send that information. And BW's modified Hero Engine isn't noted for high performance (depending on implementation, many possible technical issues could be reduced).

 

Just sayin.

Okay i will cede the point here this does make some sense. However, even if it was just simple minor mods it would still be a vast improvement and might even still be worth it.

That alone is an excellent argument for *not* implementing such a system.

I already mentioned the fact that that was a different system and bioware from the start said they were not going down this path. For the record though the crafting Stats that were done in SWG was like armor, Resists such as Fire/ acid/ cold probably not what your thinking.

I didnt see the Dev stream on 5.0 and i haven't found anything so far about the crafting for 5.0 but i'm assuming, That Augments and Kits are going to have a new level as well as the rest of the crew skills.

Can anyone confirm this or point to a link that talks about it?

I saw in the threadon crafting they said there would be MK-10 augment kits and so on.

There will be a new level of augments, MK-10, which will be taught by a trainer.

 

-eric

My biggest concern was whether or not my materials I've been collecting are going to be any good or not. Hope this helps and answers your question.

My biggest concern was whether or not my materials I've been collecting are going to be any good or not. Hope this helps and answers your question.

Probably not.

The only way they will be is if they offer a converter vendor like they did when 4.1 came out (KOTFE launch did not have a crew skills increase, but the first major patch after KOTFE - 4.1 - did have it. And with that crew skills increase they offered a vendor that would take grade 8 materials and give you grade 9. I am not sure they will do this again. although I sincerely hope I am wrong. IMO they did it only because the crew skills increase was offset from the expansion launch, people were stocking up on grade 8 materials that would no longer be useful though they thought they would be. We will probably not see a repeat of that release schedule and therefore the converter should not be necessary.

That being said, those materials you have are not wasted because they can always be used for conquest crafting

Still no crafting in this game come 5.0 not sure why peeps insist on calling it crafting. You don't create unique items with better stats. You can't even make unique, appearance changes to items that look cool and seeing that most of the gear in this game are god awful and ugly, at least if that was available that would create a demand for people to buy your product. No instead you replicate stock crap that every other player can duplicate THIS IS NOT CRAFTING. It was put in the game as an advertising/marketing gimmick to entice people from other MMO's and much like the space sim they are apathetic and frankly not worth the time. Back in the day when i played galaxies I could veg out and play for hours just crafting stuff that other people wanted until that changes this replication system is a joke ( Really guys Tie vs Xwing a 20+ year old space sim 1000 times more fun to play and that had joystick support to boot!)

I have to agree with Kazz! It is rather disappointing.

Well i have to disagree a bit because there were people that excelled at crafting on our server back in the day mainly because he chose to invest in mining top ingredients he spent the capital he got in best crafting tools which yielded highest stats on gear for armor so if you pvp'd you wanted the very best for that ever so slight edge and were willing to pay for it. That alone created huge demand for his product. Yes, you are also correct in that you had to devote your profession into crafting but seeing as back in the day we had 2 or 3 alts anyways not a big deal. Since the devs don't want the players being able to improve upon stats the only aspect players could improve upon is appearance i.e. allow player base to alter or changes appearance of armor, weapons , furniture could very well lead to A.) Some armor and weapons that are not god awfully butt ugly and hideous looking. B.) natural competition which would encourage even more unique and innovative items. How you'd implement it haven't given that much thought however, my original point still stands and by your own admission a sandbox MMO can support it and a theme park cannot. Thus SWTOR cannot by it's very nature have a true crafting system only a replication system in which every player produces cookie cutter items that don't distinguish themselves in anyway other than the fact that one is chooses to place theirs on the GTN cheaper than the others on the GTN. It was a Gimmick, it is a gimmick designed to entice those that played sandbox MMO's.

Well said Kazz. If only this could be incorporated as it was on the "other" MMO from days past.

with 4.0 we had the special situation, that mk-10 was changed into mk-8.

that is why we had a time limited vendor.

i don't think that bw wants us to build the best gear within a few days,

and so there won't be a vendor, just new collectable items.

and they said, that you still can use them for the 4.0 schematics.

that's why i sold all my darkmatters and isos for a good price. now

they all realize that they don't have any worth anymore and sell it

very cheap.

just the conquest-matrix i will keep.