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jefferyj

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Posted on Friday:

Hello everyone,

 

Wanted to let players know that this final phase of PTS will be coming down Monday, November 22, at approximately 10am CT. Should that change, I will update this thread.

 

Jackie

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9982176#edit9982176

 

EDIT: it's still at the top of the Dev Tracker as I write this, although they probably should have added a new sticky to the PTS forum as well.

Edited by SteveTheCynic
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Posted on Friday:

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9982176#edit9982176

 

EDIT: it's still at the top of the Dev Tracker as I write this, although they probably should have added a new sticky to the PTS forum as well.

 

No kidding.

They added it to the flashpoint thread.

 

Not that I looked at the forum before logging on...or after...3.5 weeks away from the release, including a 4 day holiday weekend...not much chance of anything significant from putting another update on PTS

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I would not count on another phase of the PTS as Jackie did say in her post that was the final phase. I would imagine they are going to put the final touches in the next two weeks before the release date.

 

Oh i see, my fault, not used to swtor PTS, thought they meant that the final version of PTS would come not that the PTS testing has finished.

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I was expecting we'd be testing loadouts and seeing if they got the combat style selecting and switching down pat as the final phase.

 

Though it is troubling to see that as of 11/10 there wasn't any content at a Level 2 state of readiness at the very least, or a few combat styles at Level 1. It is also puzzling that this hasn't been updated over the past two weeks to also include the "known issues" list being culled of items that have been fixed--especially the issues around scaling.

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Though it is troubling to see that as of 11/10 there wasn't any content at a Level 2 state of readiness at the very least

 

The final PTS phase felt like an alpha test.

I really hope the devs are months ahead on their actual proper internal builds and just drip fed some tiny things to get feedback on. If that isn't the case, they have a few weeks of mad crunch time before launch - especially considering their annual holiday break.

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The final PTS phase felt like an alpha test.

I really hope the devs are months ahead on their actual proper internal builds and just drip fed some tiny things to get feedback on. If that isn't the case, they have a few weeks of mad crunch time before launch - especially considering their annual holiday break.

 

To be honest each phase on PTS here has felt like an alpha test since day 1 - thats not a bad thing as what is actually released is far (mostly) different.

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If they're launching without testing how training works with the alternate combat styles then there's going to be a ton of complaints and backlash that I don't think they're ready for. as a founder this decision is a bad idea. they should have kept the PTS up unti launch this way we could test that. THAT is how a proper test should be done. This feels rushed.
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Let's face it, it IS an alpha, when there is more "WIP" tag in the interface than working elements, and most of the working element are the old ones…

 

All of this is not feeling like we are going to get a finish product by the 14th, this is not a situation that can be fixed in less than 3 weeks....

 

Old player like us might bear with it, but new player (witch are more likely the target of all these changes), expect a finish product and by finish product I mean something who's working and free of bugs, if their experience does not meet a minimum of quality why would they stay and pay money for it while there are tons of new games with better quality.

Edited by KaellSolaris
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Let's face it, it IS an alpha, when there is more "WIP" tag in the interface than working elements, and most of the working element are the old ones…

 

All of this is not feeling like we are going to get a finish product by the 14th, this is not a situation that can be fixed in less than 3 weeks....

 

Old player like us might bear with it, but new player (witch are more likely the target of all these changes), expect a finish product and by finish product I mean something who's working and free of bugs, if their experience does not meet a minimum of quality why would they stay and pay money for it while there are tons of new games with better quality.

 

Bioware has been around a long time, they know what they're doing.

I go back to beta 6 testing with UO.

I actually played one iteration of their test server for almost 9 months when Tyrant was leading UO for EA.

 

As a returning SWTOR player (back for couple months now), I am sad that I missed out on testing but be assured that they have many QA's and employees playing their internal private test server. They put up the PTS to collect data and feedback.

DON'T WORRY

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Because among those tons of new games, not one of them is a Star Wars MMORPG. If that's what you're looking to play, you're stuck with SWTOR.

 

But is the Star Wars IP strong enough to conceal all defects it will have on release date.

 

As a returning SWTOR player (back for couple months now), I am sad that I missed out on testing but be assured that they have many QA's and employees playing their internal private test server. They put up the PTS to collect data and feedback.

DON'T WORRY

 

If you saw the state of the PTS, you might no be this optimistic, WIP tag on every screen, pixelated placeholder icon everywhere and half feature beside combat style working properly (if combat style is in the mood to work), don’t start me on bugs, as a developer myself, I can understand you cannot have 100% of the feature working properly, but there is bare minimum : working properly, which was not the case.

 

As for feedback and all … you do not make big change right before changing version, so I guess the current pts is what is going to go live (that was the case in previous xpac, so I don’t see them making crazy change over the next two week while they must finish all feature and stabilize their but for release).

 

There is a lot of reason to be worried about.

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why would they stay and pay money for it while there are tons of new games with better quality.

What other decent mmorpgs exist that are worth playing?

 

WoW is a dumbsterfire that has focused solely on raidloggers and is terrible for everyone else.

FF14 has a great story but the gameplay is stale, choreographed and dps barely have any utility, dungeons are literally just tank and spank.

 

Swtor has been one of the few mmorpgs that has always been fun to play due to how big the story is and how replayable it is, how their housing is one of the best and how the gameplay always felt better and that is being heavily improved with the new talent system, and the comat styles leading me to create a new character like powertech in trooper storyline is another huge bonus.

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But is the Star Wars IP strong enough to conceal all defects it will have on release date.

Hard to say, because it's highly subjective. Even just for me talking about me, it's hard to say, because it depends on which kinds of defects they are:

* Just some visual glitchy bugs = meh.

* Flaky (sometimes works, sometimes doesn't) clickables in the new solo-story FP = meh

* (Like on PTS) Inventory window doesn't close when I press Esc, ever = :mad:

* (Like on PTS) Trainer intro missions don't work if you don't choose one of your original class's styles = half a :mad:

 

Noteworthy: those are implementation defects. For design defecrts:

* Solo-story FP overtuned = well, I managed SoV during launch week, so meh

* Legendary player status, have Light V and Dark V cheevos, first style forced to be previous Advanced Class = :mad::mad:

* Have to level new Shadows and Assassins to level 23 before I can unlock stealth = :mad::mad::mad:

* Weapon look slot is part of Outfit Designer(1) = :mad::mad:

* Gear is hard to obtain, never drops from mobs, etc. = :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

* Etc.

 

How many :mad: it takes to make me cancel subscriptions is not clear.

 

EDIT: footnote.

(1) As I've said before, Weapon Look Designer should be a separately-selectable thing, not locked to Outfit Designer tabs.

Edited by SteveTheCynic
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But is the Star Wars IP strong enough to conceal all defects it will have on release date.

 

 

 

If you saw the state of the PTS, you might no be this optimistic, WIP tag on every screen, pixelated placeholder icon everywhere and half feature beside combat style working properly (if combat style is in the mood to work), don’t start me on bugs, as a developer myself, I can understand you cannot have 100% of the feature working properly, but there is bare minimum : working properly, which was not the case.

 

As for feedback and all … you do not make big change right before changing version, so I guess the current pts is what is going to go live (that was the case in previous xpac, so I don’t see them making crazy change over the next two week while they must finish all feature and stabilize their but for release).

 

There is a lot of reason to be worried about.

 

Really?!?!?!?!

 

So, Steve, what studio do you work for?

 

I'll go through the list of what is wrong with what you are saying.

 

1. EA is known as a studio killer, if they're screwing up, not making money they fire the employees and or do odd things to the company. Can you say Origin???? Read Richard Garriott's book (he and I follow each other on Twitter) and many others, plus the founder of ID, etc, etc, etc

 

2. Do you realize how quickly you can add/subtract from a modern game engine?

I've used Unreal Engine, I can tell you firsthand that you can do a ton very quickly!

 

3. Sometimes it's better to keep the cat in the bag rather than show the players what is going to happen.

 

Show me the plan and I can modify my current playstyle to make a ton of in game money in the expansion.

I came back to SWTOR with 5m and lvl 50-55 chars. Ten 75's now, all 306, and closing in on a billion creds.

 

4. The SWTOR devs know that if they are screwing up, they can and will be fired by EA management.

 

Do you really think they want to lose their jobs?

___________________________________

 

To answer your forthcoming questions

 

I'm not a game dev, but I've been around since 1982 playing computer games.

 

Why have I used unreal engine? I picked up 3d modeling as a hobby about 6 years ago.

I can make full 3d environments, have done character rigging, and I've created over 1000 renders and mp4's, I especially like doing photorealism. It's just a hobby. Some people paint, I do 3d modeling :)

 

How do I know so much? I've been a forum poster since 1997 and had the most red named replies from the dev at UO until I left that game in 2000. Over 60, as I asked good questions and made excellent observations.

 

I met many of them in other games and even was in a studio's guild in WoW. It all came about because of a site called mwcyber which was tied to uox3 and many devs and game company employees.

 

I went along for the ride and have done and seen things most gamers will never contemplate.

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So, Steve, what studio do you work for?

I'm Steve, but you quoted Kael. Which of us are you talking to?

 

To answer your question, I'm a developer (for more than thirty years), but not a *game* developer. I could have pursued an opportunity at Eidos back at the end of 2008, but they were looking for developers who were also football (soccer) fans, which I'm not. (Er, because they were recruiting for a football management sim...)

 

I could probably have faked it well enough to get the job, but feeling uneasy about the dishonesty implied, combined with not really wanting to deal with hardcore footie fans (I enjoy watching football, but not in any sort of hardcore-fan way) in my job, meant that I decided not to pursue it.

 

I'm still torn about that decision.(1) You know, thirteen years later. Think about that for a moment.

I'm not a game dev, but I've been around since 1982 playing computer games.

The first computer games I played would have been in 1980, maybe 1979. In the end, all that say is that we are, both of us, old farts.

 

(1) It's one of those "If you do it, you *might* regret it, but if you don't do it, you will *absolutely*for*sure* regret it" things, except that I hadn't quite worked out that that sort of thing existed back then.

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I'm Steve, but you quoted Kael. Which of us are you talking to?

 

To answer your question, I'm a developer (for more than thirty years), but not a *game* developer. I could have pursued an opportunity at Eidos back at the end of 2008, but they were looking for developers who were also football (soccer) fans, which I'm not. (Er, because they were recruiting for a football management sim...)

 

I could probably have faked it well enough to get the job, but feeling uneasy about the dishonesty implied, combined with not really wanting to deal with hardcore footie fans (I enjoy watching football, but not in any sort of hardcore-fan way) in my job, meant that I decided not to pursue it.

 

I'm still torn about that decision.(1) You know, thirteen years later. Think about that for a moment.

 

The first computer games I played would have been in 1980, maybe 1979. In the end, all that say is that we are, both of us, old farts.

 

(1) It's one of those "If you do it, you *might* regret it, but if you don't do it, you will *absolutely*for*sure* regret it" things, except that I hadn't quite worked out that that sort of thing existed back then.

 

I was talking to you.

 

You have to understand.... Forums are for constructive criticism, not rants. That was my first lesson from a CM in 1998 (Leilo aka Susan Kath)

 

Many games do not have open public test servers, I never saw one in my time at WoW, except for the closed beta.

Most will not have them up and running 24/7 for months without a wipe as I encountered with UO in the last century. They had a dedicated community of game developers playing their test server at the time.

So be happy that you were given a glimpse.

 

Test servers are almost always empty. People do not have the time to spend there and on production servers.

I was lucky back when they were testing the group finder and actually ran several flashpoints.

 

Back when I played LOTRO, I was able to get into almost every test server as I was a forum poster and they took cfare of me as I followed rule 1 (constructive criticism)

 

Just ranting because they closed off the PTS isn''t helpful. It has an actual purpose and that was achieved as they closed it.

Because you saw many unfinished aspects does not mean that they are not actually finished. Many companies do not share content before launch for the reasons I described previously and for others such as not feeding the trolls whose only goal is disruption.

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I'll go through the list of what is wrong with what you are saying.

 

Feel free to state your opinion, but don’t burst in outrage if we don’t agree on something, we can have different opinion, no one need to blow up Alderaan.

 

1. EA is known as a studio killer, if they're screwing up, not making money they fire the employees and or do odd things to the company. Can you say Origin???? Read Richard Garriott's book (he and I follow each other on Twitter) and many others, plus the founder of ID, etc, etc, etc

 

I don’t see in what I said was wrong.

it was a rhetorical question: how far are you willing to tolerate an unfinished product based on a universe of which you are a fan?

it is question without right or wrong answer because the answer depends on the tolerance of every person.

 

2. Do you realize how quickly you can add/subtract from a modern game engine?

I've used Unreal Engine, I can tell you firsthand that you can do a ton very quickly!

 

Do you realize all engines are not the same? It is like comparing an electric engine to a combustion engine, both do the same thing, not in the same way.

Unreal is a very used up to date engine, with a lot of resources, and people working with it and is MADE for anybody to create a project easily.

SWTOR is based on a heavily modified version of the hero engine, which mean you are on your own, no support, no update and more important: very few people with a deep knowledge on it.

Both can’t be compared.

 

3. Sometimes it's better to keep the cat in the bag rather than show the players what is going to happen.

Show me the plan and I can modify my current playstyle to make a ton of in game money in the expansion.

I came back to SWTOR with 5m and lvl 50-55 chars. Ten 75's now, all 306, and closing in on a billion creds.

 

I fail to see how I can make money with in-game features like outfit designer or loadouts who are just a multi-spec can make me do a ton of money, it’s not like we could gain anything from it … almost everyone knows a class who have access to furtivity can cheese many parts of the game, and it is not a secret that we can switch between advance classes with loadout.

If they do not want us to see or test some feature, why not blocking access to the tab? or display a message saying “not available for this PTS “, Instead of putting a “WIP” tag on almost every screen?

Unfinished aspect of a feature should not be available because when you see how far it is from completion, you begin to doubt their ability to deliver a finished product, also the sheer number of bugs present on pts for feature we were supposed to test were not encouraging at all.

 

4. The SWTOR devs know that if they are screwing up, they can and will be fired by EA management.

Do you really think they want to lose their jobs?

 

Most people don’t want to lose their job, but the responsibility of the devs is to deliver what their management team ask them to produce, they are not free to do what they want in the game, development cost dans duration are parameters who are to be taken in account during projects, especially when the deadline is closing in, and in most case it is the manager who are in trouble if things go south.

 

You have to understand.... Forums are for constructive criticism, not rants.

 

But you also have to understand that sometimes you need to raise your voice because your constructive feedback has no answer and is not taken into account.

When you spend time testing and making feedback, but nothing change and silence is your only answer, you feel like raising your voice.

Forums are also a place for exchange with the team of the game, but if the team doesn’t answer or acknowledge our issues then you have to rant a little to be heard.

 

… for others such as not feeding the trolls whose only goal is disruption.

 

Then there are a lot of troll, because not a lot of people is happy with the current state of 7.0, having faith in a company is one thing, being blind to the issues is another, it is sad you haven’t been on PTS so you did not saw anything they shared with us, but feel free to open a post on December 15 with all the good point and issue you have with the released of the game.

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Many games do not have open public test servers, I never saw one in my time at WoW, except for the closed beta.

Most will not have them up and running 24/7 for months without a wipe as I encountered with UO in the last century. They had a dedicated community of game developers playing their test server at the time.

So be happy that you were given a glimpse.

Wheee! Test servers should look more ... finished ... that this round of PTS was. Previous PTS rounds (notably for 6.0, for the Swoop racing(1), etc.) seemed way more finished than this round. They asked us to test the levelling experience, and I did, and it sucked in various ways, in part because the feature was clearly not ready to be tested.

 

(1) See e.g. https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9842574#post9842574 for my first commentary on that. The Swoop stuff was *much* nearer to finished than 7.0 felt.

Test servers are almost always empty. People do not have the time to spend there and on production servers.

Duh. I wasn't there to test group activity, so I can't comment on how that worked this time around in PTS.

Just ranting because they closed off the PTS isn''t helpful.

Except that I wasn't ranting, or even commenting quietly, about that.

Because you saw many unfinished aspects does not mean that they are not actually finished. Many companies do not share content before launch for the reasons I described previously and for others such as not feeding the trolls whose only goal is disruption.

BioWare generally keeps *story* content to itself during PTS rounds, but functional stuff like e.g. how the levelling experience works should be closer to finished-looking than this round was.

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Because you saw many unfinished aspects does not mean that they are not actually finished. Many companies do not share content before launch for the reasons I described previously and for others such as not feeding the trolls whose only goal is disruption.

 

Bioware is unfortunately not like many companies. Their track record as far as the PTS goes has been very consistent. What you see in the final PTS build is what goes live with a few minor updates (one needs only look back to 6.0 where they were rushing through hot fixes the first couple of weeks after release to fix issues that had been brought up on the PTS weeks earlier). To have the core of the game, leveling, be in as bad of shape as it was on the PTS should be embarrassing to the Devs. Even the flagship "update" for 7.0, Combat Styles, wasn't working right during the leveling process. What Steve said is right, it is one thing to have a few minor things (as well as story which would spoil the expansion) not working on the last PTS build, it is quite another for core systems to not be working right (or even close to right in many instances). There is really no point in asking for feedback if what is being evaluated isn't mostly the way it is intended to launch.

 

It's fine to be hopeful that what was on the PTS was not representative of what will launch in 2 weeks but that has not been Bioware's track record so far. This is why a lot of people who have been around this game for years are uneasy about the launch of 7.0.

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