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Interview: Combat Styles in 7.0


ChrisSchmidt

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Hi everyone,

 

I recently did an interview with Max and Sema, the content creators behind SWTOR Escape Pod Cast about Combat Styles. We covered quite a bit of information, including the team’s goals and philosophies behind them. Hopefully this interview also addresses lots of questions that y’all have been asking about Combat Styles in general. Below are some high level points that we chatted about:

 

 

  • We had the opportunity to take a close look at the state of the game for this release and address things such as balancing classes and the way we developed new abilities, thus opening the door for some fun stuff we can do in the future
  • Goals of Loadouts and Combat Styles, how many players can have, and our vision behind how they work
  • How we are managing flexibility and restrictions when it comes to switching Combat Styles
  • What the player experience is like if the player is brand new to SWTOR
  • Gearing changes will be coming to level 80, but we aren’t able to share details at this time. This will be something that players can look forward to testing in a future PTS phase
  • Changes that are coming to Utilities
  • Light vs Dark alignment and unlocking Light/Dark 5 for Legacy
  • Excited to share more through PTS and we are looking forward to sharing how all the pieces will fit together

 

Definitely check out the interview for all of the details about the above points!

 

Thanks all!

Edited by CommunityTeam
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KappaChris does it again

 

tldr from reddit

 

When asked about "why" this whole ability pruning and stuff is happening, and what the upsides are:

 

Class balancing. Previously, we would say, add a new DCD to this class, and then we would look back and say oh no, we need to add something more to this other class to keep it balanced. One of our developers described this like an arms race with the classes pitted against each other. Our goal is to take a step back and reset the baseline for all classes, to help balance better and faster.

 

It also opens up doors to do more things like adding new combat styles.

 

When asked about the "loadouts" system that was announced:

 

Subscribers will get 2 combat styles per character to switch between via loadouts. These choices are permanent. Loadouts will save gear, outfit, and ability positions on quickbars.

 

When asked about the "when and where" we can change loadouts:

 

No changing within phases.

 

When asked about whether there's a cost or limitation to switching:

 

As of now no costs, players can switch as many times as they want. Similar to field respec right now, just not within phases.

 

When asked about when new players will unlock multiple combat styles:

 

Players that have completed Act 3 once in their legacy will unlock that second combat style option for their other characters. Brand new players will still have a classic experience of playing a single class.

 

When asked about lvl 80 gearing:

 

Can't share everything, but gearing will change. There will be several new gear tiers. Current set bonuses will not work at level 80. Tacticals will also change. Although some of them might remain, don't expect them to.

 

When asked about utilities:

 

Utility system will be gone. Will be replaced by a "tree structure" system where you make choices between utilities/abilities/passives. To make it easier for new players, there will be a "default" choice but it will let you change it if you want to.

 

When asked about the light/dark requirement to changing to opposite faction combat style:

 

You just need to reach Light V or Dark V once in your legacy, then you'll be given the option on all characters (even new ones) to pick opposite faction combat style. Most experienced players have already reached these milestones and won't notice any restrictions.
Edited by RikuvonDrake
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I just don't know about this system anymore. I honestly can't see myself using this system if a loadout is permanently linked to a combat style. Instead of allowing me to conveniently swap between heal/dps disciplines, or tank/dps disciplines, it seems like I'll be locked to a permanent loadout and be forced to swap to a different advanced class. So, instead of being able to easily swap between Defense Guardian and Vigilance Guardian, or Shield Vanguard/Plasmatech VG, I'll be forced to choose a whole different advanced class, or go through the same tedious process of respeccing discipline as on LIVE.

 

This system offers ZERO of the convenience I hoped. I have no need to swap my Defense Guardian to a dps Sage, Shadow or Sentinel. I already have those advanced classes. I don't need my Trooper to swap to Gunslinger or Mercenary, just to be able to wield two pistols, because I want to use trooper abilities, not gunslinger or mercenary ones. I realize it could be desirable for some people, but the system should have been designed from the ground up to save disciplines into loadouts too, and it wouldn't have hurt those people who want to use two blasters and don't mind swapping their Trooper to a gunslinger or mercenary. The only thing I would use this system for is to change my light-sligned Warrior into a Knight, and my Sorc to a Sage.

 

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

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KappaChris does it again

 

 

Frankly i find these upcoming changes utterly baffling.

 

Each new post from BioWare, while very much appreciated from a communications standpoint , only serves to make me less excited for the changes. (certainly way less than how i felt after first reading: https://www.swtor.com/legacyofthesith )

 

I just don't understand why 'they' would choose to go in this drastic direction for *10th year Anniversary* .

 

Maybe my skepticism will magically flip in December on 7.0 launch-day , but i doubt it. Heck, i would much rather play a retro-SWTOR pre-3.0 combat system than this 'loadout' dreck. ( If i wanted 'loadouts' , i'd go play more ESO ) .

 

I've been here since 2008, so i'm not going anywhere , but sorry ChrisSchmidt: As of today, i still do not share in your excitement. :(

Edited by Nee-Elder
why not invest in more CONTENT , rather than a total *combat overhaul* ? ...i'll keep my hope, but ugh
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Hi everyone,

 

...

 

  • Goals of Loadouts and Combat Styles, how many players can have, and our vision behind how they work
  • How we are managing flexibility and restrictions when it comes to switching Combat Styles

 

Definitely check out the interview for all of the details about the above points!

 

Thanks all!

 

Hi Chris, I made a write up thread covering most of the topics from the interview over here and one point that kept coming up is how exactly the loadout slots will function because a little more clarification would be appreciated.

 

1. Are loadouts tied to combat styles? - e.g. loadout 1 is for my guardian, loadout 2 is for my sage - disciplines aren't part of it.

 

2. Or, do we pick one discipline within each combat style to attach the loadout to? Say, defense for guardian and telekinetics for sage.

 

3. Or, can we pick and choose which disciplines within those combat styles should be attached to our loadouts? e.g. Guardian defense for loadout 1 and guardian vigilance for loadout 2.

 

Thanks for doing the interview, it certainly gave me a lot to search through and write about!

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I am at a loss at how bad this is becoming. I keep hearing all this 'calm down, its going to be ok. The other changes will make up for the ability loss' but every time something new comes out, im stunned. There was so much excitement for 7.0 and everything about 7.0 is not even disappointing, its just disheartening.

 

re loadout: 'choices are permanent' understanding that we have seen nothing about them, this is kind of scary. Why would they be permanent? Does this mean that I can only be an Sent or a Guardian and not Mara or Jugg? This include the combat style? This include the gear? (cause I never change gear stats) this terrible new tree? (cause I never have to spec diff) All it NEEDS to do it remember where on my bar my abilities are - and preferably my gear and this terrible tree. But, can I change....nothing in the load out? I would think it would be 'you get two, and if you change something you then have to save it overriding one that you have' - you know, like any normal program. Can I opt out of loadouts then? Just not use loadout and keep 'respecting' as I do today? I have been know to move even my abilities years later for one reason or another so 'permanent' is the LAST thing I would ever want. I (tried) listening to the interview, and while I get the generic idea for the decision, If these are truly permanent I will NEVER use this. I dont know where the permanent ends and what I can change in the future. If I can only chose two advance classes, fine, really, I could not care less, but when you add in these loadouts being permanent, then you get into all sorts of mess. Am I limited to two combat styles (because loadouts)? What if both my loadouts dont have my ops buff....guess she can never do ops? This sounds like I need more toons....

TLDR

  • two advance classes only - fine
  • two loadouts - fine
  • two PERMANENT loadouts - NOT fine
  • ensure that I can just NOT use loadouts - unknown

 

Not to mention, second to the above: I cant change IN phase? So, if I went from Jugg to Mara I have to leave phase then phase back in? (that, whatever) Can I not change trees in phase? (because permanent loadout) can I not change gear in phase? (because permanent loadout) can I not change combat style? (because permanent loadout) Can I keep respecing as we do today the same way as we do today (in phase)? forgoing these loadouts? Adding this to 'permanent loadouts' why not just have another toon?

 

At this point this is a lot of 'I am not using that' and will stick to still having dozens of toons. Somehow that is less work and defiantly more flexible.

 

In addition, I now have a third reason to why abilities are being 'choices', something that was clear but never stated, and what I have stated before - PVP - class to class balancing. Its not new players (throwing passives and abilities and utility into on big bucket, not new player friendly, sorry) Its not mechanic bypass. Its PVP. Make us 'loadout' (not the way you have described) for PVP then (but, more like star fighter - where, you can change them before going into the match, but not in que or in match). I que for PVP I have to have choices, limited abilities, since that is what it really is affecting. You are damaging all of pve for the sake of pvp.

 

is there a way to NOT go into 7.0? asking for a friend.

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The one thing that has me most interested, is the bit about adding new Combat Styles in the future. Maybe this is how we get reverse-hold lightsabers and melee tech Combat Styles like polearms, dual-wield vibroblades, or a tech/charged shield for tanks. Maybe they'll even get bold, and be able to introduce new Origin Stories as well, like Imperial Trooper, SIS Agent, Psion, etc.

 

As it is, I don't think I will be using the Combat Styles to their fullest, as my main intent is to give my LS Sith the appropriate LS Combat Styles, give DS Jedi their theme-appropriate DS Combat Styles, and mix up some of my tech characters to spread out the Combat Styles across more characters. I don't really have a use for the additional Loadouts or Combat Styles, but I think it would be fine to allow more, for those who will use it.

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Permanent loadouts is a big no-no.

It is not what people (myself included) were remotely expecting when the announcement was made for 7.0.

Limited to 2 loadouts at a time? sure thats fine, and still incentivises having and leveling alts.

But at the very least let us change a loadout.

What is the point of opening up the classes only to have us permanently stuck with 2 forever?

Especially with the statement you made about potentially adding new combat styles in the future (which is a very exciting prospect btw).

Loadouts should not be a permanent choice you will be stuck with forever.

Having loadouts not be permanent would also allow people to try out combat specs they normally (if they had to level a character for it or would get stuck with it permanently) would not try.

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Permanent loadouts is a big no-no.

 

I listened to the interview this afternoon while working, and that is not how I understood it, primarily because people kept using "combat styles" and "loadouts" interchangeably.

 

As I understood it, you get to pick one additional combat style in addition to the one your character already is / what you pick when you roll a new character. So if you are a Scoundrel, you can also pick the combat style of a Vanguard, but once you have chosen that additional combat style, you are locked in. You basically get to choose one additional advance class in addition to what you already are. Nowhere did I hear that you are permanently stuck to a particular loadout of that combat style (Loadout A or Loadout B).

Edited by BenKatarn
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Sigh

 

People were complaining that the combat styles/loadouts would disincentivize them from leveling and gearing alts. "Why play an alt when I can just change my CS at a click of a button?"

 

Now it's revealed to be restricted and people are still complaining. Can't win.

 

Personally, nothing I have seen thus far has made me any less excited about CS.

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Sigh

 

People were complaining that the combat styles/loadouts would disincentivize them from leveling and gearing alts. "Why play an alt when I can just change my CS at a click of a button?"

 

Now it's revealed to be restricted and people are still complaining. Can't win.

 

Personally, nothing I have seen thus far has made me any less excited about CS.

 

Nonsense. People can object to the combat style system for many reasons and still object to the latest revelations. When it was revealed that combat styles actually meant advanced class swapping, and that it would still have weapons restricted to the "advanced-class-now-combat-style," people very rightly asked why time would be spent on that system when we can, and probably have, already made alts. It seemed redundant. But loadouts were also promised. It suggested we would finally have the ability to save equipment choices, utility choices, and discipline or combat style into a template that would make it easier to swap between. Even people who have multiple alts often need to swap between tank and dps or heals and dps ON THE SAME TOON, within a flashpoint or operation. Even just changing utilities in between bosses was a hassle but you did it if the fight required it. So people were more tolerant of the proposed system because it brought loadouts in. Furthermore, at least for Force-using classes, the system ostensibly allowed you to choose an "advanced-class-now-combat-style" that more appropriately matched your alignment in game. While I wasn't personally planning on making a whole lot of use of combat styles in general, I was convinced by one forum poster that the ability to swap my light-side aligned Sith Warrior to Knight skills might be appealing.

 

Trouble is, people didn't understand that loadouts were tied so intricately to combat styles that all classes would have nerfs both to the # of abilities and more specifically to DCDs/mobility skills. There was nothing in the original livestream to suggest that. It was only after the nerfs became clear on PTS that people put two-and-two together and realized that loadouts would not be the convenience feature for which we all hoped.

 

I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again here. When radical changes occur like this, ostensibly in the name of "balance,", "TTK," and "technical and performance limitations," people want to know that there is going to be some improvement to in-game quality of life as a result of these nerfs. Perhaps we drew too many false conclusions from the livestream, but a one time permanent choice for a second combat style and only two total loadouts doesn't sound terribly innovative or exciting to me.

 

We've been promised things like, "Making this change will make such-and-such easier down the road." If you recall, that was the same excuse used to justify level lock and locking all old fps/ops to 70. We were told it would make balancing content easier moving forward. Now, we are told that we need all sorts of rebalancing: nerfs to abilities, removal of DCDs and mobility skills, old fp/ops boss rebalancing to account for 9 years of character upgrades, etc. Don't forget today's news that tacticals are unbalanced and some will be baked into passives and some will just go away. Level lock didn't streamline anything at all, apparently. So, forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical that this combat style system with perma-choices and 2 loadouts will enable the Developers to add new combat styles in the future. To me, that seems like a "white lie" thrown out as a bone to make this sound better than it actually is. I don't see how a new Combat Style (read: new advanced class) will be any easier because of this system when the Devs don't have the time or resources to allow freedom of weapon choice within the existing Advanced Classes (combat styles), which probably requires less in the way of animations than a whole new advanced class.

 

I'm glad you're excited about Combat Styles. I on the other hand have been told many of my assumptions were wrong. Assumptions like:

  • you will have a large degree of freedom in changing advanced class
  • you will be able to save several loadouts with choices of gear and utilities that will faciliate swapping even on a boss-to-boss basis as required

and other assumptions as well. I don't need a system that allows me to swap my Defense Guardian to a Watchman Sentinel or even a Serenity Shadow ... I have those classes already. What I needed was something I could use to quickly change from Defense to Vigilance, or Defense PVE to Defense PVP. I'm sure I'm not the only player like this. I'll make use of the feature to change my Immortal Jugg to a Defense Guardian, but I'm not sure that feature is worth the added costs associated with it, costs that have become much more clear since the livestream.

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As I understood it, you get to pick one additional combat style in addition to the one your character already is / what you pick when you roll a new character. So if you are a Scoundrel, you can also pick the combat style of a Vanguard, but once you have chosen that additional combat style, you are locked in. You basically get to choose one additional advance class in addition to what you already are.

I see absolutely no reason why the secondary combat style shouldn't be able to be re-rolled into another at a vendor/trainer on fleet. Limited to 2 combat styles at a time? Sure, understandable. Have maybe the Primary combat style locked? Sure, also understable.

 

When you are leveling a new character and you dont like the class its easy to create a new alt when you haven't invested a lot of time (and money on cosmetics) on that character yet. But when theres a risk of getting stuck with a secondary combat style way after the fact that might not end up suiting you then the entire secondary combat style on that character has basically gone to waste. Even Chris in the interview says there could be a possibility to add it later (whenever that is and IF that ever happens), just add it at launch (especially at launch because with all the class changes people might find classes/combat styles they used to be familiar with no longer to their liking).

 

I'm glad you're excited about Combat Styles. I on the other hand have been told many of my assumptions were wrong. Assumptions like:

  • you will have a large degree of freedom in changing advanced class
  • you will be able to save several loadouts with choices of gear and utilities that will faciliate swapping even on a boss-to-boss basis as required

and other assumptions as well.

Pretty sure you werent the only one with these assumptions.

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I see absolutely no reason why the secondary combat style shouldn't be able to be re-rolled into another at a vendor/trainer on fleet. Limited to 2 combat styles at a time? Sure, understandable. Have maybe the Primary combat style locked? Sure, also understable.

 

When you are leveling a new character and you dont like the class its easy to create a new alt when you haven't invested a lot of time (and money on cosmetics) on that character yet. But when theres a risk of getting stuck with a secondary combat style way after the fact that might not end up suiting you then the entire secondary combat style on that character has basically gone to waste. Even Chris in the interview says there could be a possibility to add it later (whenever that is and IF that ever happens), just add it at launch (especially at launch because with all the class changes people might find classes/combat styles they used to be familiar with no longer to their liking).

 

 

Pretty sure you werent the only one with these assumptions.

 

I think their reasoning is that swapping combat styles is another step above swapping disciplines and that the amount that it would tax the server / databases to constantly change those and subsequently trickle down and change all your available disciplines, abilities, passives, ABC tree options etc isn't worth it at the moment. Chris did say they are open to giving more slots in the future (not in those exact words), and I wouldn't be surprised if part of the "tech improvements" scheduled for next year will help lessen the load on servers in such a way that it becomes more manageable to swap between and have more combat styles. That's just my assumption, I could be completely wrong.

 

My assumptions originally were that we would have far more loadouts and access to all combat styles (within tech and force bubbles), but I'm actually kinda ok with it for the most part.

Edited by LordCamTheGreat
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I've seen various different interpretations of the Combat Style restrictions detailed in the podcast.

 

What I understood was:

- Your *Primary* Combat Style has the same options as today's Advanced Classes (on a new character).

- Your *Secondary* Combat Style has the options of everything in it's damage type (Force or Tech).

- Your can change these Combat Styles to their Dark/Light mirror (once? no limit?).

 

Or am I way off base?

Edited by MrRuck
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I've seen various different interpretations of the Combat Style restrictions detailed in the podcast.

 

What I understood was:

- Your *Primary* Combat Style has the same options as today's Advanced Classes (on a new character).

- Your *Secondary* Combat Style has the options of everything in it's damage type (Force or Tech).

- Your can change these Combat Styles to their Dark/Light mirror (once? no limit?).

 

Or am I way off base?

 

From what I understood, at character creation you pick your first combat style. This can be any of the force or any of the tech combat styles depending on your chosen class story. A jedi knight could during character creation pick a sage, shadow, sentinel or guardian for e.g.

If another character in your legacy was dark 5, your knight could also choose from sorc, assassin, marauder and juggernaut.

 

Then as soon as you enter the game at level 1, so long as another character in your legacy has done act 3, you choose your second combat style from that same pool. If you were totally new player, this choice would be postponed til after act 3 to prevent information overload. Then when you hit dark/light you get an option to switch to the mirror spec (force only as tech has everything from the start).

 

I don't know if the dark/light switching option is something that every character has and we still don't know if you get the option to swap between the mirror combat styles considering there is no dark or light requirement for those.

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From what I understood, at character creation you pick your first combat style. This can be any of the force or any of the tech combat styles depending on your chosen class story. A jedi knight could during character creation pick a sage, shadow, sentinel or guardian for e.g.

This is the way I thought it was originally but his phrasing made it sound like you needed to use your Secondary Combat Style slot to do so.

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This is the way I thought it was originally but his phrasing made it sound like you needed to use your Secondary Combat Style slot to do so.

 

Yeah the trouble with interviews and the pts notes is that just the slightest amount of vagueness can lead to a wide amount of interpretation. I still might be wrong in how I understand it, I'm just trying to relay the information as best as I can.

 

If there's ever an opening on the team for someone to make notes and clarify these sorts of things for players I'd be all for it :D

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Glad people enjoyed the interview. Sema and I had fun doing it. I'll be happy to try to clarify a few things here including the the number of Loadouts (more than 2) that we'll get which we followed up on today. Most of the rest is explained in the interview and we'll all get to try it out soon:

 

1) Combat Styles will be limited to up to 2 permanent choices. These are equivalent to advanced classes today. Limiting to two provides a reduction in complexity per character, lower impact on server resources, and makes alts and playing other class stories still valuable.

2) Loadouts are related to but not limited by combat styles and you will have more loadouts than combat styles potentially up to 4-5 depending on current design goal, subscriber levels, etc. So yes, you will be able to switch between DPS, Heal and your PvP loadout. Loadouts are not permanent.

3) Light/Dark requirement for cross faction Combat Styles will be limited only for new players to provide a new lore/canon experience that makes a bit more sense. Once you hit Dark 5, for example, that legacy achievement then allows you to pick up Sorc Combat Style on any Jedi from then on whenever you want.

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Glad people enjoyed the interview. Sema and I had fun doing it. I'll be happy to try to clarify a few things here including the the number of Loadouts (more than 2) that we'll get which we followed up on today. Most of the rest is explained in the interview and we'll all get to try it out soon:

 

2) Loadouts are related to but not limited by combat styles and you will have more loadouts than combat styles potentially up to 4-5 depending on current design goal, subscriber levels, etc. So yes, you will be able to switch between DPS, Heal and your PvP loadout. Loadouts are not permanent.

 

Thanks so much for this point specifically, it was the main thing I was going back through the interview trying to get clarification for when I did my write up post. Loadouts not being permanent and having at least 3 (enough to fill all roles) is awesome. Loadouts not being limited by combat styles is also amazing and means you can have multiple loadouts within one combat style which is what people have been wondering about.

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I've updated my notes slides PDF linked on the show notes page with this clarification as well: http://www.newoverlords.com/swtor-escape-pod-cast-393-chris-schmidt-interview/

 

Enjoy!

 

Updated my post with your new info too.

 

Also you made a typo on the loadouts page! ▪ "New 8/20 clarification: We will likely get a few combat styles, possibly 4-5".

 

I think you mean to say we will likely get a few loadouts, not combat styles?

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Dang... nearly made it worse. Thanks for the check. I was trying to get it done quick. Fixed in the PDF!

 

Yeah I think even Chris was getting confused at times between loadouts and combat styles which is why we were scratching our heads a bit. An important clarification between the two!! I hadn't anticipated getting a TONNE of new news today and so am not at all prepared to update the mini site I've been updating with the PTS ABC choices and now I need to redo a lot of the combat style explanation haha

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The intent wasn't for this to necessarily be a big content drop or news update but rather a discussion of mostly what we already know. Being able to reveal a couple additional details was merely a perk that Chris was able to add in. It's still probably best for all to enjoy the dev discussion and wait to see it in action on the PTS in the next couple months for first hand details and experience. I liked what I was hearing from Chris though and I personally have faith that this is going to be a good update to systems. Personally I'm most excited about story and PvE content and the systems and class updates are just the icing. :)
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The intent wasn't for this to necessarily be a big content drop or news update but rather a discussion of mostly what we already know. Being able to reveal a couple additional details was merely a perk that Chris was able to add in. It's still probably best for all to enjoy the dev discussion and wait to see it in action on the PTS in the next couple months for first hand details and experience. I liked what I was hearing from Chris though and I personally have faith that this is going to be a good update to systems. Personally I'm most excited about story and PvE content and the systems and class updates are just the icing. :)

 

As an admitted non-guardian player, I’ll be curious if you still feel the same after mercenary gets hit.

 

Thanks for clarifying we have a little more freedom in loadouts and they they can be intra-combat style as well as inter-combat style.

 

Hey, at least we can be sure that GSF will pretty much be exactly the same!

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