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Philosophy Behind Making Force Shroud-Force Cloak Pairing Optional for Assassins?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Philosophy Behind Making Force Shroud-Force Cloak Pairing Optional for Assassins?

arunav's Avatar


arunav
09.24.2021 , 10:39 AM | #1
The reason I'm asking is Force Cloak (and its parallel in the Operative/Scoundrel class) is an integral part of playing a stealth class. Without a properly functioning vanish ability, a stealth class isn't really a stealth class.

By making it a choice, instead of baseline, to pair Force Shroud with Force Cloak when activating Cloak, which cleanses off damage over time effects (DoTs) that prevent Cloak from actually functioning, stealth classes are almost in practice having to make one of their choices be to spec into their vanish ability.

Like the Sleep Dart issue that arose with Operatives recently, this very much goes against the spirit of what it is to play a stealth class in SWTOR since 1.0.

In PVE, regular mobs as well as bosses in FPs and OPs apply DoTs. This happens often enough, especially on leveling planets when playing solo against regular mobs, that the stealth classes' vanish ability will become useless without opting into a choice to apply the cleansing ability when it's used.

In PVP, using Force Cloak doesn't reliably take a character out of combat, even with the utility selected that combines Force Shroud with Cloak. It simply yields the best chance for this to occur, and is the only way to ensure Cloak actually serves its function and allows a stealth character to escape combat.

As such, in PVE, both solo and group, and in PVP, Force Cloak won't function properly without opting into a choice.

Currently, this choice occurs at Level 80. It is alongside one that is extremely useful in solo play, Phantom Stride granting the ability to use Assassinate on a target of any health, and resetting if that enemy is killed. For regular mobs/targets in heroics/chapters, i.e. solo-oriented gameplay, this option is part of what makes the Shadow/Assassin class work well for it. Other classes with much better AOE abilities don't rely on this sort of option, what is currently a utility choice on live.

The other choice is helpful in both PVE and PVP, reducing the cooldown times of Force Speed and the character's stun break.

As it stands, the Level 80 choice is essentially forcing players to opt into choosing their vanish on a stealth class. It isn't especially meaningful, outside of granting a basic ability back and preventing the nuisance of dying in situations where your character wouldn't have died since 1.0. This won't introduce rewarding gameplay, to make or not make that choice.

Please reconsider the Level 80 choices, and consider making Force Shroud activate with Force Cloak as baseline for DPS Assassins. I would argue the Force Speed cooldown should also be rolled into the passive that removes roots/snares when it is used.

DPS Shadows/Assassins already had the fewest active abilities to remove or make choices. I'm not sure what could replace this "utility" choice, but am making this post to bring attention to it.
"In the end, cowards are those that follow the dark side."

xordevoreaux's Avatar


xordevoreaux
09.24.2021 , 02:00 PM | #2
Quote:
Please reconsider the Level 80 choices
We'll see plenty of that kind of request when this goes live and everyone currently oblivious to what transpires on the forums will suddenly appear screaming bloody murder for having to choose between two favorite abilities.
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ralphieceaser's Avatar


ralphieceaser
09.25.2021 , 04:32 AM | #3
Assuming the reason for such a change is how powerful force shroud really is, often when not combined with force cloak as an escape tool then the solution is quite simply.

Either
1) Give force cloak a 0.5 second shroud to cleanse all effects and allow for an escape which is what shroud is meant to be, so bake that immunity in the shroud in order to keep that classic stealth class escape feeling.

2) Give cloak and shroud as baseline but with both nerfed so it is used mostly as a way to cleanse themselves to escape instead of a defensive, and in those choices instead give passives that preferably buff them beyond the previous baseline otherwise it often feels like you are taking something away only to give it back as a choice instead of giving a better version as a choice.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
09.25.2021 , 06:10 AM | #4
In theory Shroud itself exists (just like Evasion for Operatives) so you can purge your dots before going into stealth. Having a short version of those abilities when you activate cloakout was only added in 3.0 iirc, because Assassins and Operatives often had to use those abilities to stay alive, and didn't have them active when they needed to escape. Just wanted to point out that this isn't something that has been part of the stealth classes since 1.0.

Regardless I do think a change should be made to current PTS. The problem is that in PvE tanks can still pick Shroud of Madness and completely ignore mechanics with way too many Shrouds. So this doesn't even really fix the ridiculous cheesing abilities of Sin tanks in PvE, while hurting them in PvP, where they don't need to be hurt at all.

I think a fix can be relatively simple: Get rid of Shroud of Madness entirely, replace it with something that you can mostly skip (because the other two options are very good). Then make it so that Cloakout purges your debuffs by default (no opt in), but does not grant Shroud. This way Cloakout remains a solid escape that doesn't get negated by dots immediately, and we can simultaneously adress the mechanics cheesing problem of Sin tanks in PvE.

xordevoreaux's Avatar


xordevoreaux
09.25.2021 , 06:34 AM | #5
I've read the two above posts and those details don't matter.

The fundamental problem is forcing people to choose between two abilities -- any two, for any class, doesn't matter what -- that previously presented no choice. That's new, and it'll cause change-averse people grief.

I wasn't happy myself on a level 80 sorc on PTS having to choose between abilities, but that class won't be alone. Players of all classes will find themselves making a choice which feels all the world like a ridiculously unnecessary compromise to how they've played in the past (especially those who've never experienced the old skill trees).

It'll be interesting to see how Bioware finesses passing that off to the player base and extolling the benefits that Bioware sees for players for having to make that trade-off.
About my SWTOR guilds
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Aberd's Avatar


Aberd
09.25.2021 , 01:10 PM | #6
I remember the old skill trees. Now those allowed you to play how you wanted, at least to an extent.
Then they decided to be like WoW and took those away so if you wanted to be a particular advance class, you were given abilities for that AC.

I agree that having to choose between active abilities is for the birds. Gonna feel like a level 40 trying to do level 80 content without all my abilities.
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

Tentou's Avatar


Tentou
09.25.2021 , 01:36 PM | #7
This is a sound argument. Completely agree.
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arunav's Avatar


arunav
09.29.2021 , 02:33 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by ralphieceaser View Post
Assuming the reason for such a change is how powerful force shroud really is, often when not combined with force cloak as an escape tool then the solution is quite simply.

Either
1) Give force cloak a 0.5 second shroud to cleanse all effects and allow for an escape which is what shroud is meant to be, so bake that immunity in the shroud in order to keep that classic stealth class escape feeling.

2) Give cloak and shroud as baseline but with both nerfed so it is used mostly as a way to cleanse themselves to escape instead of a defensive, and in those choices instead give passives that preferably buff them beyond the previous baseline otherwise it often feels like you are taking something away only to give it back as a choice instead of giving a better version as a choice.
I couldn't remember what precisely was in the skill trees from 1.0-2.x. If this was added in 3.0, then it's been almost 8 years instead of since launch.

The reason for my initial post was it's important for the 2 stealth classes to have access to their vanish ability, and for the vanish to reliably work. As it stands, the latter is compromised. This is different from making a "difficult" choice for other classes, as it affects one of the most basic aspects of playing a stealth class, and is relevant in all game modes and difficulty levels.
"In the end, cowards are those that follow the dark side."

Wolvel's Avatar


Wolvel
09.29.2021 , 03:24 PM | #9
7.0 is terrible for all classes. Mara looks rough, jugg looks unplayable (don't worry though we got saber throw back! everything is fine now!)

Sin getting messed up the way it did is no different.