I think what gets me the most about the complete lack of further information, is how much of the dialogue already in the game hints at SGRAs without following through. When you have Risha telling my GS that she can't envision a future without the smuggler in it or Kira getting very obviously jealous and protective when Doc hits on my JK... it makes it very difficult to realize that you can't follow up on that in any way but a plainly platonic way. I can tell Risha I feel the same or shoot Doc down and bond with Kira every day but it never results in anything but the status quo.

In so many ways it feels like the game already supports SGRAs but then you run smack up against a brick wall with the relationship and are forced to interpret everything in the strictly platonic sense whether you want to or not.

I keep trying to convince myself that this means implementing them is easier than we fear and that it will be sooner rather than later. It's wearing thin though.

I wouldn't sit back down with that same server and still expect an answer, you may deserve one, but its naive to expect one.

Heh. As much as I want to argue with you on that statement...I will concede that it does contain an unpleasant grain of truthiness.

And though I have, in effect, walked out (by cancelling my sub and filling out the exit survey), I still think that businesses who continue to ignore their customers deserve to be constantly pressured until said customers are no longer being ignored. I'm not disputing that pressuring them may possibly end up being ineffective. But it is certainly no less effective than remaining silent.

I suppose its just a small difference in philosophy. /shrug

I just don't like that idea honestly, because I made that decision already, I have done that part of the game. It feels... dirty for lack of a better word, to go back in a role playing game and alter what I did. IMHO

Fair enough. But for many of us, we'd rather have that than reroll or never get to experience it at all. I -will- reroll my Sentinel if I have to in order to have a romance with Kira, but I'll be very annoyed. I'd rather reset her affection to 0 and run endless FPs and ply her with gifts to see the companion story again at 50.

Or, as people have also said, it could be a "Second Chance" sort of storyline. Therefore it doesn't negate previous decisions but now you have the opportunity to follow up on that romance should you so desire and it would be set, timeline-wise, after the current story.

I do understand, tongue in cheek about the droids. Tthough I do not see all romantic options as simply being blanket options for all, if we were to have the romantic foils changed in some patch to allow for SGRA, then all my options that previously may have presented a different character to me are now changed. Someone who may not have been receptive to my character before is all of a sudden an option, that changes the story for me, it changes my view of that character and mine.

 

I personally don't want the characters in the game to change, because I already have a view of them from my play through. Having that change makes it so I never had the option and i may have taken that option at the time,, and I wouldn't want to post-game go back and alter my character's romance choice or even have the option because it undermines the decisions that i already had to make.

 

Personally I'd just prefer more companions available who may be gay, straight, bi, or whatever floats their boat. Heck, make the number of options limitless, but don't mess with what I already did make for decisions or make it so i just missed out on decisions.

Personally, I have been waiting for them since launch to finally realize their attraction. A lot of us have put characters on hold or have avoided talking to companions.

Earlier in this thread I've outlined a two-pronged approach to implementation - make it available for new characters as if it always had been (or those who avoided the companions) and also add a second chance for romance with future content involving those companions for everyone. Does that not strike you as better than leaving things as they are? The status is not quo, to quote an evil genius, and I for one would be unsatisfied with adding it in as a post-50 perk.

You walk out, you don't wait past closing time for an answer.

Think that is the first thing this guy has posted I agreed with.

For people supporting SGRA's take the time to go cancel your subscription. A few days later when you receive your exit survey fill it out and make sure to explain why SGRA's are the reason you are leaving. Then at your rebill date if you truly feel like continuing to play, you can always reactivate your subscription. No changes take place on your account until the next billing date. Though personally I don't see a reason why at this point I would want to reactivate.

I'm not a computer programmer, and my last computer class involved Hypercard on an AppleIIe, but I don't think it would kill someone to come in here in bright yellow text and say "THIS IS HOW FAR WE'VE COME ON IT." If they were trying some big "We got it all done at once, suprise!" I don't think it is worth the current stress.

Software developers never tell how far along they are with a feature unless there is absolutely no way to avoid it. And then it is likely something said by a sales type person and not ground in any reality the way the developers themselves see it.

Software or a news feature does not exist until after it is through internal beta testing and vetted for public testing and final release. At that point you may see an announcement that 'feature X will be included in patch Y'. Maybe.

Things are done this way because there is too much uncertainty involved in developing major new features for a software project. Telling when it will be included before that is a certainty is only going to cause speculation and if any of the countless things that might cause a delay happens it will lead to resentment and a bad (or an even worse) reputation of the game. Look at Blizzard, it has had Diablo 3 in development for almost as long as SW:TOR, has been beta testing it for more than 6 months now and is not even commenting if the game might be released this year (after a comment last october it might be early 2012 they are now clamming up about release dates since they already had to push back internally their projected date at least once).

Bioware has officially announced that same gender romance options are going to be in the game at some point. They may even be working on it, but that requires a lot of writing, voice recording and possible they need to add some coding as well. They will announce a patch number for it when they are ready to push it to life. Considering the amount of work involved it is not going to be finished in a few months unless they had that content almost finished prior to release, and from the official comments on the subject that seems not to be the case.

I think it just leads to more frustration on the part of those most involved, not more action on Bioware's side.

Since the level of action on BioWare's side is nothing, it can't in fact make them do less.

And, insofar as it provides people with some means of diverting themselves, I would say that it helps to alleviate frustrations which would continue to rise anyway simply by BioWare's continuing not to address the matter.

Further, I would say that insofar as the high visibility of the question in the Q&A thread has unmistakably spurred activity in this thread - viz. your joining the discussion - I'd say that the tally experiment has in fact succeeded in its principle aim.

That is, it has raised the profile of the issue of same-gender content.

Perhaps BioWare feels its ends are better served by a low profile. If this is the case, I am sorry to find myself taking an adversarial stance.

Arguably if the ends justify the means, having more activity resulting in more responses could be valid. So far it has not been the case. so I would say again it just leads to more internalized frustrations with a lack of answering while lending credibility to the idea that the more vocal the more valid the want.

I am sorry if some have construed it that way. But if there is an invitation to the community to ask the questions they would like to have answered, can those who want this topic addressed be blamed for asking, and for wanting to go about it in a more or less unified manner?

My point is that some of the information being requested, some of it just in at least the way it is requested, is impossible, or unreasonable. There are questions as so "when," such as weeks, months etc. 1.2 doesn't have a date yet if I'm not mistaken. Specific game features that have not yet been mentioned even in line with 1.2, I consider impossible to answer.

An inevitable side effect of having a large number of individuals expressing their interest in a topic in their own terms. But if a when is impossible to offer, then that itself can be an answer "We simply are not able to project when this will be available" is in fact an answer to that question which it is entirely possible to supply.

From what I've seen quoted by people in this thread by members of Bioware, it sounds to me like they are going to release SGRA in expansions. Not in any 1.x release.

The information is ambiguous. And that is precisely why there is an interest in clarification.

People have been dismissive of some interesting information we have had back via CS. In my case, it was in reply I sent to the email address for feedback, not to any kind of customer service request. Someone received that message, and it found its way to where it could receive a substantive, personal reply.

I received that reply the day after last week's Community Q&A thread closed. It spoke in terms of this being content that was currently in development. Another poster to this thread received a reply that spoke of it in terms of future content patches - not retail expansions. These were not stock replies. These were the kinds of responses one gets when CS has escalated one's issue for more careful review and response.

I don't think the Community team, Customer Service or the Development team is malingering, or taking this lightly. I truly don't. But I do thing the situation is overdue for some sort of status update.

And in that email from CS, I wasn't reluctantly told that I might as well not ask because nothing would be said. I was encouraged to continue to ask, because it remains possible that something might be said and - further - that even if an answer is not forthcoming, the Dev Team wants to know what we want.

So I do see merit in my approach. But it does seem to frustrate those who feel that any attention given to same-gender content is attention that ought to have been spent on the content they care about, instead.

Personally I'd just prefer more companions available who may be gay, straight, bi, or whatever floats their boat. Heck, make the number of options limitless, but don't mess with what I already did make for decisions or make it so i just missed out on decisions.

If that were so, I would demand that the next 20 romance-option companions we get be exclusively homosexual. I'm guessing that would take about three expansion packs or so?

And I think that would upset the "companion purists" a bit more, when they are deprived of the options instead of just having to share theirs. Not to mention having no new content for their relationships for the next few years. But hey, future content is coming on that; it's been confirmed. So they can just sit and wait quietly while I get my content first. (Note; Read this with heavy sarcasm.)

But you know what? Forcing me to share all of my future romance options as bisexuals while there are exclusively heterosexual companions? That is a very one-sided relationship. The only two options as far as I'm concerned are;

A) Hero-sexual companions, including current ones. Let the players decide who they wish to romance.

B) Seperate but equal. Currently there are 20 hetero-romances. That means we'd need another 20 characters that are restricted to homosexual relationships. And then on top of that, they could add several bisexual romances.

See which one is easier?

You walk out, you don't wait past closing time for an answer.

 

You walk out, bad customer service is bad, you want to buy a product that you may never get support on?

 

You leave their service, or call the BBB for false advertising.

 

I do, and where I differ is how much time I would waste asking before I left, instead of bashing my head against the metaphorical wall that is a poorly integrated customer service team.

 

I wouldn't sit back down with that same server and still expect an answer, you may deserve one, but its naive to expect one.

Apart from all that, which, yes, I agree with (cancelled my sub, but it's paid up for another 5 months, which I would absolutely change if I could), you also do what you can to highlight the fact that the customer service is poor to others (e.g., by making it really obvious to everyone that they're ignoring the issue by continuing to post in the Q&A threads and clarifying what you're asking for if people misunderstand), and also to convince the company to act better in future, if you feel some personal loyalty to them and want to be able to return.

If a restaurant I'd been going to for >10 years, loved the food, loved their treatment of me as a customer, saw them getting better and better over time, suddenly opened up a new branch that seemed to be the exact opposite of everything they were before that made me love them, I wouldn't just quietly leave and find another restaurant after my first few complaints were ignored. I'd be doing exactly what I am here - trying to figure out what's going on, suggesting ways to fix the problems, and wondering if there's any chance I can continue on with this restaurant I've loved for so long. Because the food really is the best on the market.

I do expect an answer, and a big part of that is because I know Bioware's track record; for all my pessimism and frustration from time to time, I trust that they're not responding for a reason, which isn't going to turn out to be "we hate gay people", or whatever. My intent is to assist in applying enough pressure that it outweighs whatever that reason may be, and lets them know that this is not a good way to handle matters for future games.

Telling when it will be included before that is a certainty is only going to cause speculation and if any of the countless things that might cause a delay happens it will lead to resentment and a bad (or an even worse) reputation of the game.

I say again, we are only asking for some kind of update. We have already, several times, made it clear that the majority of us are not asking for the kind of information you are saying can lead to speculation, resentment, and a bad reputation. This does not have to be an "all or nothing" proposition here. They can come in here and tell us something without creating the scenario you describe.

And speaking of that scenario...hmm. Speculation? Check. Resentment? Check. Bad reputation of the game? Check.

Well, huh. This pretty much seems to be exactly what we have right now. And it has come to fruition by their decision not to communicate with us, rather than by over-communicating. I fail to see how this is an improvement.

Considering the amount of work involved it is not going to be finished in a few months unless they had that content almost finished prior to release, and from the official comments on the subject that seems not to be the case.

But we don't know! That's the whole point, we don't know if we should be looking toward a long wait or soon or some paid expansion pack down the line. No one is actually asking for a patch number. And we don't need to know a date. But knowing a time frame, whether it be weeks, months or years, and some vague idea as to whether it will affect current companions and flirts are kind of important as to how we play (and pay) right now.

They don't have to give us details, but they should tell us if this is something they are actively working on or not so we can decide if we pay them or not. Right now for some people the default goes to not paying them and that can't be what they want.

Heh. As much as I want to argue with you on that statement...I will concede that it does contain an unpleasant grain of truthiness.

 

And though I have, in effect, walked out (by cancelling my sub and filling out the exit survey), I still think that businesses who continue to ignore their customers deserve to be constantly pressured until said customers are no longer being ignored. I'm not disputing that pressuring them may possibly end up being ineffective. But it is certainly no less effective than remaining silent.

 

I suppose its just a small difference in philosophy. /shrug

Can you imagine dining at a restaurant run like an MMORPG? Oye! You'd choke on the first bite... if it wasn't deadly poison to boot. When you called 911, they would ask you how far down your throat you think you are choking, and whether its important enough to breath to send an email to their customer service, where perhaps just reading the FAQ would fix the problem.

If that were so, I would demand that the next 20 romance-option companions we get be exclusively homosexual. I'm guessing that would take about three expansion packs or so?

 

And I think that would upset the "companion purists" a bit more, when they are deprived of the options instead of just having to share theirs. Not to mention having no new content for their relationships for the next few years. But hey, future content is coming on that; it's been confirmed. So they can just sit and wait quietly while I get my content first. (Note; Read this with heavy sarcasm.)

 

But you know what? Forcing me to share all of my future romance options as bisexuals while there are exclusively heterosexual companions? That is a very one-sided relationship. The only two options as far as I'm concerned are;

 

A) Hero-sexual companions, including current ones. Let the players decide who they wish to romance.

B) Seperate but equal. Currently there are 20 hetero-romances. That means we'd need another 20 characters that are restricted to homosexual relationships. And then on top of that, they could add several bisexual romances.

 

See which one is easier?

I think there should be many more romance options, I think that you have a valid point about equal numbers of each, though personally if there were 2 gay options for every 1 straight, I would still consider the straight options pretty well covered. Though I also think

that making this a pure apples to apples comparison is unnecessary unless you want to go down the line of how many of each race... gender... body type... voice... etc. are represented.

Since the level of action on BioWare's side is nothing

So I do see merit in my approach. But it does seem to frustrate those who feel that any attention given to same-gender content is attention that ought to have been spent on the content they care about, instead.

And the same thing can be said for any individual who doesn't feel their priorities have been mentioned. I do wish you luck, though I am doubtful of the efficacy of the counting

If a restaurant I'd been going to for >10 years, loved the food...

I would simply reply EA ate your restaurant.

"Your favorite restaurant, now brought to you by McDonalds"

I'm a fan of Bioware...

Yeah, this. I'm perfectly cool with not being able to romance the droids.

And the same thing can be said for any individual who doesn't feel their priorities have been mentioned. I do wish you luck, though I am doubtful of the efficacy of the counting

I'm sorry, you lost me there.

And as a side question, to paraphrase the Utapau leader in RotS, "What brings you to our remote forum thread?"

I can't help but notice that you have not posted before, nor elsewhere. What drew your attention to this issue, to the extent that you felt inclined to comment?

Well.

That seems to have ground to a screeching halt, so here is a Monday afternoon update on the Q&A thread - as my previous got scrolled by pretty quickly.

We are still making a quite respectable showing, with 74 / 728 posts, or pretty near smack on 10% of all questions asking for an update on same gender content.

If you would like to hear from the Development Team regarding the status of same-gender content and have not yet posted in this week's Community Q&A Thread, remember that the thread will be closed at some point tomorrow. If you want to ask, sooner is better than later.

I would simply reply EA ate your restaurant.

 

"Your favorite restaurant, now brought to you by McDonalds"

 

I'm a fan of Bioware...

Yeah

Still, DA2 was awesome.

I'm sorry, you lost me there.

 

And as a side question, to paraphrase the Utapau leader in RotS, "What brings you to our remote forum thread?"

 

I can't help but notice that you have not posted before, nor elsewhere. What drew your attention to this issue, to the extent that you felt inclined to comment?

Was out looking for organized 1.2 information (lots and lots of rumor...) Q&A doesn't give any info leading to such, but I noticed the most passive aggressive posts were in regards to this topic, and multiple re-directs got me here.

but I also wondered why it had not been implemented, seems there is no such thing as info

Oh hey, I thought this might be interesting to some of us here, maybe because of the irony factor. The Bioware founders Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka were recently asked about a possibility of a Mass Effect MMO. They hedged around the MMO issue a bit, but what they said after "maybe it would be fun" made me go "oh really?!" for a completely different and much more relevant-to-this-thread reason, but judge for yourself:

"When you deliver a game, and you deliver it for a player, you have to capture what they think is the possibility space," he said. "You need to let them do everything they think they should do, and you can't block them from doing anything they think they should be able to do. You have to nail all the features and content that should be in that possibility space."

Considering that Mass Effect 3 is notable for finally including a gay romance for male Shepard, I think it's at least a little bit relevant here, don't you agree?

Oh hey, I thought this might be interesting to some of us here, maybe because of the irony factor. The Bioware founders Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka were recently asked about a possibility of a Mass Effect MMO. They hedged around the MMO issue a bit, but what they said after "maybe it would be fun" made me go "oh really?!" for a completely different and much more relevant-to-this-thread reason, but judge for yourself:

 

 

 

Considering that Mass Effect 3 is notable for finally including a gay romance for male Shepard, I think it's at least a little bit relevant here, don't you agree?

I'd say it's relevant. It also makes me wonder more and more if the SWTOR devs are holding off on a more definitive statement until after ME3 is released. Kind of a "while people are already up in arms over ME3 SGRAs throw the SWTOR SGRA info out there and get it all done at once" type mentality, rather than dealing with the issues separately. Might make it easier for their PR team to handle if it's all going on at once since then they can address both simultaneously rather than dealing with ME3 and then having to deal with SWTOR later on down the road.

It also makes me wonder more and more if the SWTOR devs are holding off on a more definitive statement until after ME3 is released.

Which actually isn't a bad idea. But in that case, they should have come out and said "Hang in there, guys, an announcement on this issue is forthcoming...". Or something.

Hell, anything.

Something I saw from the toggle thread that is relevant here as well

Correct. I'm heterosexual, so I guess that makes me part of Galius' "non-LGBT community". But I don't see the inclusion of same-sex content as something that requires any kind of compromise. Rather, any game that includes romance as a substantial part of the experience should include same-sex options from the outset. In the 21st Century, the idea that this is even open for debate is shameful. Hetero and homosexual romances should be treated on an equal footing; implemented at the same time, in the same way, for the same reasons. Sadly, BioWare have already failed on that score, despite their excellent track record in this area. I sincerely hope they're not going to consider compounding that failure by adding a completely unnecessary feature to hide content which should have been available from the beginning.

Bolded by me, and I couldn't agree more. As I said there, this isn't 1952 anymore, time for the TOR devs to get with the times. The fact that this content wasn't in the game from day 1 is rather shameful.

Which actually isn't a bad idea. But in that case, they should have come out and said "Hang in there, guys, an announcement on this issue is forthcoming...". Or something.

 

Hell, anything.

Oh definitely. Not saying what they've done so far is the most brilliant plan ever (in fact it's quite the opposite).