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Juggernaut DCDs


SheikuKawaii

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Would there be a way for juggernauts to get 1 more DCD or be able to have their saber reflect last as long as a merc's reflect? The merc's reflect lasts a ridiculously long amount of time and doesn't have a cap on the damage it can absorb while the juggernaut has only a 3 second reflect and gets capped pretty much instantly if you are being focused by multiple ranged DPS yet the merc's reflect can block both range and melee which is pretty unfair. So I was hoping in 6.3 that the juggernaut could another DCD or at least have the DCDs already established buffed to make them a bit more survivable and also be more viable for ranked PVP. Speaking On Behalf of Rage JUGGERNAUTS ONLY xD.
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You’re asking the wrong people if there’s a way to buff Jugg dps. We aren’t the devs, the dev’s move at a glacial pace gathering feedback, and when they do make changes it often backfires or is done without thinking about long term consequences.

 

I agree, class balance is an issue. I agree that rage jugg is in a bad spot. I just don’t know what to say to help you

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pvp is a mess, but I'm still feeling a bit attracted to it. I made a thread some time ago ranting over it, now I've actually tried to play ranked and been doing lots of WZs. First with my old main which's a mara, now with a jugg. Gotta say that the problem is the matchmaking almost always, and to top it off some classes have broken utility which allows them to play carousel on LOS forever, while Jugg can't do squat **** other than use nimble set, which helps more in defensive situations where u got a team that helps you because Jugg's saber ward CD *********** sucks, takes 3 years and a half.... Marauders do dish out lots of dmg and have the most useful global DCD for any party, BUT, that's it, they can't survive after undying rage ends, they are just KDA food.

 

So basically Warrior on pvp is in a bad spot, unless u run Immortal Jugg, but it still is dependable on team, pretty much both healers and tanks are dependable whilst we have Mercs that do as much self-off-heals as having a full healer in their grp, Operatives that can carousel anyone due to their ridiculous amount of utilities, basically Concealment Ops and their Smuggler equivalent can do practically everything alone, heal, escape (with their ridiculously out of sync roll), CC, displace, and stealth, they are and have always been broken (since last time I played SWTOR years ago, it was the same bs) which's quite funny in a way because most ppl play SW games for glowing sticks, not Space James Bond, but whatever. This time when I returned I was so pssed on OPS that I made one, and basically was king of PvP under 75, reached 75 and got bored, finished it's default set this week but I don't feel like playing it on Ranked, for instance, although I probably could, I just wanna play my glowing sticks.

 

Every other spec/class is somewhat balanced with strong disagreements among players, although I thoroughly believe that all classes are broken in a way, either they are too Overpowered, too easy to play, too hard to play but under-performing, or completely broken for certain content (negative broken, like they can't do squat). The worst class+spec rn is Mara Carnage, it's practically useless unless you can sit in front of your enemy spamming massacre (which is almost never, any boss with moving mechanics breaks their combo and makes them do youngling dmg, and in PvP it's simply impossible unless he's beating an AFK opponent). Anyway, that's my 2 cents for this.

 

Alternatives for Jugg improvement would be to either lessen Saber Ward CD drastically, or add a utility that reduces it (so nimble set becomes more useful), or do what you have suggested (make reflect actually reflect properly) Since their reluctance to nerf classes (which is -nerfing- in fact dangerous because, well, look where that got Carnage) I am way more inclined into the idea of buffing everyone instead.

Edited by xdjinn
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So basically Warrior on pvp is in a bad spot, unless u run Immortal Jugg, but it still is dependable on team, pretty much both healers and tanks are dependable whilst we have Mercs that do as much self-off-heals as having a full healer in their grp,

 

I stopped reading here.

 

Maras are warriors. Maras are beasts.

 

Mercs have tremendous self heals, but their off heals are a complete and utter joke. Their self heals are high because all of their dcds heal them passively. active healing on a dps merc is trash. just spamming self heals might get you 50% in 5-8 gcd.

 

I can't speak for sorc off healing, but ops have incredible off-healing for a dps spec.

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I stopped reading here.

 

Maras are warriors. Maras are beasts.

 

Mercs have tremendous self heals, but their off heals are a complete and utter joke. Their self heals are high because all of their dcds heal them passively. active healing on a dps merc is trash. just spamming self heals might get you 50% in 5-8 gcd.

 

I can't speak for sorc off healing, but ops have incredible off-healing for a dps spec.

 

Mara is really hard to play, they are squishy outside their single decent DCD, albeit 99% reduction if lasted longer or had shorter CD would be broken, they have no survivability outside Spliced Genes. I do, however, agree they do a lot of dmg, but it's not easy to pull that off, at all... You do have classes and specs way easier to play, and Fury is in any way as versatile as other picks for PvE DPS, they don't keep up with the dmg of an Operative, nor do they pull high dmg as easily, they also can escape but not as efficiently as any other classes (that have escapes), they are sort of a jack of all trades, and really really hard to play with, meaning that you are forced to run multiple toons if you wanna pvp with mara, or constantly switch class and carry a full inventory of different gear. Not something really appealing.

 

I've mained mara years ago, was decent on pvp and pve, and at that time I had abandonned Annihilation (which's still not viable in PvP at all) due to it getting nerfed to death, switching myself into Carnage, now carnage had a flow to it that was quite unique, somewhat filler mono-button though u could pull off incredible plays with it if you knew how to use the non-fillers in harmony. Carnage is garbage now, even on PvE if you don't wanna develop tendinitis. Fury is okay-ish on PvE and hinders you to solo any content, it is also much more slow-paced than Rage due to needing so many self-buffs to just start fighting (activate stack, activate berserk, any mistake and you can't deal dmg due to lack of ability pool)

 

I'm saying this because I've felt the difference once I made an Concealment Op, it was so much easier to play.... And it bothers me because I only really like Warrior playstyle in SWTOR, I find every other class boring, so I grow out of them too quickly....

Edited by xdjinn
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Mara is really hard to play, they are squishy outside their single decent DCD, albeit 99% reduction if lasted longer or had shorter CD would be broken, they have no survivability outside Spliced Genes. I do, however, agree they do a lot of dmg, but it's not easy to pull that off, at all...

 

good gawd, man....

 

2 force camoflages every 45s, enough breaks and immunities to be unkiteable. and burst to rival everything but AP PT.

 

and your answer to that is..."but they're hard to play"?

 

almost every reg WZ has a mara/sent with at least competent skill who is at the top of the dps and kill charts. They are easily as good as sorcs for burst spec. they die more often, as they should, but they're absolute wrecking balls. and when a good player gets on a mara in a reg, he cuts through just about everything like a hot knife through butter. so I'm sorry that the skill floor for carnage/fury is higher than merc and slightly moreso than concealment, but the ceiling is also noteably higher. and frankly, if you want a simple class, go merc or jugg. they're both more than relevant in regs. and juggs are only the best tank in the game by the largest margin of any class difference in the game.

Edited by foxmob
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Mara is really hard to play, they are squishy outside their single decent DCD, albeit 99% reduction if lasted longer or had shorter CD would be broken, they have no survivability outside Spliced Genes. I do, however, agree they do a lot of dmg, but it's not easy to pull that off, at all... You do have classes and specs way easier to play, and Fury is in any way as versatile as other picks for PvE DPS, they don't keep up with the dmg of an Operative, nor do they pull high dmg as easily, they also can escape but not as efficiently as any other classes (that have escapes), they are sort of a jack of all trades, and really really hard to play with, meaning that you are forced to run multiple toons if you wanna pvp with mara, or constantly switch class and carry a full inventory of different gear. Not something really appealing.

 

I've mained mara years ago, was decent on pvp and pve, and at that time I had abandonned Annihilation (which's still not viable in PvP at all) due to it getting nerfed to death, switching myself into Carnage, now carnage had a flow to it that was quite unique, somewhat filler mono-button though u could pull off incredible plays with it if you knew how to use the non-fillers in harmony. Carnage is garbage now, even on PvE if you don't wanna develop tendinitis. Fury is okay-ish on PvE and hinders you to solo any content, it is also much more slow-paced than Rage due to needing so many self-buffs to just start fighting (activate stack, activate berserk, any mistake and you can't deal dmg due to lack of ability pool)

 

I'm saying this because I've felt the difference once I made an Concealment Op, it was so much easier to play.... And it bothers me because I only really like Warrior playstyle in SWTOR, I find every other class boring, so I grow out of them too quickly....

 

Fury Maras are not hard to play. They aren’t much different to Rage Jugg.

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Fury Maras are not hard to play. They aren’t much different to Rage Jugg.

 

I'm playing both, and yes they are, u have to keep their buffs up, and those are like 4 *********** shaits to keep your eyes upon, I also play on higher ping spectrum, and I can assert you, Rage I can do wonders, with Fury I can't do squat **** because I have to stick my eye to the bar and worry about keeping 3 buffs up 100% of the time, it feels unnatural and if I get any lag, I'm already fked. (and I mean minor lag spike). Rage can survive a first stunlock, Fury can't survive anything once it gets properly CCed, depending on running off cutting LOS and healing OOC makes it unpractical. If you are on GRanked, it's fine due to having a healer, otherwise it's just either kill everything right when your DCDs are over, or you are fked and locked into running around doing squat **** for the rest of the match, unless nobody focuses u....

Edited by xdjinn
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I'm playing both, and yes they are, u have to keep their buffs up, and those are like 4 *********** shaits to keep your eyes upon, I also play on higher ping spectrum, and I can assert you, Rage I can do wonders, with Fury I can't do squat **** because I have to stick my eye to the bar and worry about keeping 3 buffs up 100% of the time, it feels unnatural and if I get any lag, I'm already fked. (and I mean minor lag spike). Rage can survive a first stunlock, Fury can't survive anything once it gets properly CCed, depending on running off cutting LOS and healing OOC makes it unpractical. If you are on GRanked, it's fine due to having a healer, otherwise it's just either kill everything right when your DCDs are over, or you are fked and locked into running around doing squat **** for the rest of the match, unless nobody focuses u....

 

I play with 230ms ping. I don’t know if yours is higher or not, so I can’t assess if what you are saying about higher ping compares to my own experience, which is the ping makes no difference to me when comparing rage vs fury. Of course ping does matter in regards to other players getting their abilities off before you or your abilities glitching (aka, not activating). I can totally relate to that and it happens on all classes, but can be felt more on fast moving melee classes or snipers the most (for me).

 

You shouldn’t be looking at your buffs or stacks. I’m assuming that part of the problem is you haven’t had enough practice with a fury mara yet to just know where they are at. Once you have enough practice, you don’t need to look at them ever.

 

The thing to remember with fury and rage is they nearly use the exact same rotation. The differences are the DCDs and when to use them and fury being more mobile. Learning to use the stealth ability in conjunction with your tactics and DCDs gives you a big advantage the Juggs don’t have. You can escape or reposition if you push a bad situation or use it to avoid focus, something that Juggs can’t do.

 

Also I think it’s important to know what utilities you are using for fury and do you swap these depending on game/map type. You can choose mad dash to activate as a second stun breaker if you are having CC issues.

 

I personally don’t play ranked because of the ping situation, so I can’t give you advice there. But if you want to discuss regs, I can offer some tactics and strats that work for me when playing people with better ping. I setup my fury like I will never have a healer or tank on my team. I’ve learnt to never rely on a pug team to know how to play or matchmaking to balance.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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First, a merc heal to full bubble is pretty easy to notice when it has been activated. Don't hit em. Just force choke em and wait it out.

 

Now, I agree that a dps jugg/guardian has its issues in ranked. It actually blows the mind considering how differently they play in regs. They are quite efficient in regs.

 

The main problem is they are so damn easy to keep stun locked by good players. The key is to keep moving, as Trixxie said, mad dash is a good cc breaker. Force leap and the 4 second immunity to stuns is your friend also. Mad dash, and being able to leap to a stationary target helps.....100% dmg immunity for the duration of md and the 4 sec stun immunity after leap. There are many classes that can close on you quickly so it much more difficult to accomplish than it sounds.

 

I think it would be great if a dps jugg could utilize the backhand talent as our immortal counterparts. Another stun could help.

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Coming back to the game since 5.0 warriors/knights are the worst they have ever been in arena. If all four of the other team is on your butt i hope you know how to kite or time your camo because mara can be blown up in one stun by good players pumping. Jugg lolol has heavy armor but has to kite like a limp dog to survive to get another ed/fd up again with grit teeth tactical. Anyone defending other wise ques with pocket healers or q's solos with friends so they dont get fully focused first. Nite and day playing a arms warrior in wow. Edited by Skummy
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Coming back to the game since 5.0 warriors/knights are the worst they have ever been in arena. If all four of the other team is on your butt i hope you know how to kite or time your camo because mara can be blown up in one stun by good players pumping. Jugg lolol has heavy armor but has to kite like a limp dog to survive to get another ed/fd up again with grit teeth tactical. Anyone defending other wise ques with pocket healers or q's solos with friends so they dont get fully focused first. Nite and day playing a arms warrior in wow.

 

warriors don't kite. if you're trying to kite on a warrior, then you're doing it wrong. sents/maras have an escape. jugs/guards, however, are built to fight while taking punishment. but kiting isn't in their toolkit by design. their movement abilities actually rely on being in the face of their opponents. thus, their tookit (as with sents/maras) is designed around CC immunities, gap closers, and 4-10m attacks/pushes/leaps/CC.

 

I agree that juggs in particular don't play well in rated arenas (DPS spec) -- or at least they didn't when I was last in arenas (s11? iunno. I just recieved a bunch of silvers Tues. but I don't think I played the last season, which was in 5.0). that said, if you hung back on your jugg, you just made the game 4v3. the best you could go is, like PTs, jump in and unload for as long as your DCDs allowed.

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warriors don't kite. if you're trying to kite on a warrior, then you're doing it wrong. sents/maras have an escape. jugs/guards, however, are built to fight while taking punishment. but kiting isn't in their toolkit by design. their movement abilities actually rely on being in the face of their opponents. thus, their tookit (as with sents/maras) is designed around CC immunities, gap closers, and 4-10m attacks/pushes/leaps/CC.

 

I agree that juggs in particular don't play well in rated arenas (DPS spec) -- or at least they didn't when I was last in arenas (s11? iunno. I just recieved a bunch of silvers Tues. but I don't think I played the last season, which was in 5.0). that said, if you hung back on your jugg, you just made the game 4v3. the best you could go is, like PTs, jump in and unload for as long as your DCDs allowed.

 

No i didnt hang back but after ed is gone you have to kite to get another ed when theirs a sniper sent pt and a skank jugg on yu you cannot face tank with no support im sorry this meta is burst and your health literally goes to 100 to 50 really fast idk what you on about. Sentinel can literally die in global if you get caught up. No amount of immunities is going to stop a hard focus good players pumping on you. Yea you have to kite now thats there gameplay you must play with friends that off heal or taunt or something because taking full dmg from four other people you aint gonna last a long time. I literally kited all the other teams players well everyone on my team focused there sent or w/e. Because everyone knows hard focus a jugg because after there dcds they going down. And btw if you get hard stunned with no break you cant escape on sent only rebuke if you took the talent so thats how you get globaled. Only get cc immunities in fury or focus. Arms warrior in wow *********** pumps feels like a warrior should feel condemn is awesome literally no kiting there. Night and day idk why i subbed again tbh.

Edited by Skummy
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First, a merc heal to full bubble is pretty easy to notice when it has been activated. Don't hit em. Just force choke em and wait it out.

 

Now, I agree that a dps jugg/guardian has its issues in ranked. It actually blows the mind considering how differently they play in regs. They are quite efficient in regs.

 

The main problem is they are so damn easy to keep stun locked by good players. The key is to keep moving, as Trixxie said, mad dash is a good cc breaker. Force leap and the 4 second immunity to stuns is your friend also. Mad dash, and being able to leap to a stationary target helps.....100% dmg immunity for the duration of md and the 4 sec stun immunity after leap. There are many classes that can close on you quickly so it much more difficult to accomplish than it sounds.

 

I think it would be great if a dps jugg could utilize the backhand talent as our immortal counterparts. Another stun could help.

 

Only vengeance has 4s stun immunity and 20% DR on leap

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I play with 230ms ping. I don’t know if yours is higher or not, so I can’t assess if what you are saying about higher ping compares to my own experience, which is the ping makes no difference to me when comparing rage vs fury. Of course ping does matter in regards to other players getting their abilities off before you or your abilities glitching (aka, not activating). I can totally relate to that and it happens on all classes, but can be felt more on fast moving melee classes or snipers the most (for me).

 

You shouldn’t be looking at your buffs or stacks. I’m assuming that part of the problem is you haven’t had enough practice with a fury mara yet to just know where they are at. Once you have enough practice, you don’t need to look at them ever.

 

The thing to remember with fury and rage is they nearly use the exact same rotation. The differences are the DCDs and when to use them and fury being more mobile. Learning to use the stealth ability in conjunction with your tactics and DCDs gives you a big advantage the Juggs don’t have. You can escape or reposition if you push a bad situation or use it to avoid focus, something that Juggs can’t do.

 

Also I think it’s important to know what utilities you are using for fury and do you swap these depending on game/map type. You can choose mad dash to activate as a second stun breaker if you are having CC issues.

 

I personally don’t play ranked because of the ping situation, so I can’t give you advice there. But if you want to discuss regs, I can offer some tactics and strats that work for me when playing people with better ping. I setup my fury like I will never have a healer or tank on my team. I’ve learnt to never rely on a pug team to know how to play or matchmaking to balance.

 

for regs I shine like a sun, no problems with any classes because I know the game enough, problem starts in ranked, specially solo ranked. There's a massive discrepancy when it comes to balancing in SR, and you can be an average player against an ace, u still gonna have an easier time running said classes. Conc OP and it's copy&paste rep side are among the easiest because it requires much less skill on adapting tactics, it can be run on default pve rotation as u were ganking mobs, all u have to do is know how to combo your CC, and understand your defensives + know what dmg type comes next. Connecting the attacks is a walk in the park so to speak. Conc OP requires game knowledge (little experience). Never played sniper but I hear it's more or less the same thing but without stealth (big disadvantage) although having immunity to charges is tremendous counter to any melee opponent, which's a remnant thing from older SWTOR PvP style (now there's little of "x eats y").

 

Sorcs are also much easier, u click buttons and aim aoes, if you understand their broken immunity abilities, u are golden, as long as you know how to break LOS. Sure, if u get pinned u're dead, but the amount of skill required to out-perform other classes is very low. So low that on both PvE and PvP I get sleepy playing sorc. (not if I'm healing though)

 

Mercs work similar to Sorcs, but they are more resilient. PT I'm only starting on PvE so I know squat about it on pvp, although I've been melted by them multiple times, what I've heard from others is that, again, they are really easy to get humongous dmg output without much effort.

 

That leaves us with Mara underperforming, with a single decent spec for pvp, and jugg underperforming with again a single spec for ranked that people prefer (skank tank).

 

I've grown tired of Fury Mara and simply switched it into Annihi, tried it on pvp and for regs it's quite good tbh. As long as you play it on a hit n run style more pronounced than concealment ops. So yeah, currently we have way too many specs that are nearly useless on pvp. Sorc got the madness, Mara got Carnage that are both utterly useless on everything, PvE and PvP when compared to their other spec choices. Annihilate that only really works for PvE (I can't see that hit n run tactic working on Ranked at all), Jugg veng only working on pve too, than Rage and Fury, rage is subpar compared to Immortal on pvp, while Fury isn't as durable on constant dps output in a PvP fight, u gotta run midway killing people because u got 2 nukes and CCed once, sure u can over-extend, but depending on who's standing on the enemy team, u'll trade kills, but the meta basically does favor stealth over anything else, meaning that Fury played masterfully is great as complement to a party, but sucks if they have to solo someone even with the opponent being under CD of multiple abilities (happens sometimes on Ranked).

 

So yeah, I do prefer Rage over Fury, way more durable when keeping dmg output high due to a single tactical. Fury you gotta run for your life, it does help playing against more clueless players since camouflage breaks target, but in a ranked match nobody is that stupid, as soon as you pop back u are their piñata again.

 

Now, I've talked about what I know, apparently every class has a bonkers useless spec for pvp or pve, or both. That shouldn't happen at all... Carnage is debatable because I did manage to create a build that does more dmg than Fury in PvE, but it also causes you tendinitis if you stick to it, it's basically a build that runs on overshooting alacrity constantly.

Edited by xdjinn
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