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Open world PvP


frennky

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Yeah I know you came here just to say it's not gonna happen, because the game engine is old and can't handle whatever...But, it all depends how you look at it. We do have PvP that is, for the most part, running ok.

 

For me, anything that is more then 8v8 is just unplayable and more importantly not fun. Not because game engine can't handle that, but because it's not a fun gameplay. I've been involved in many OWPvP events, but it always ends up players zerging. Whenever you try to attack someone, usually you only manage to land 1 hit before that player dies from other hits. And in a same way, if you get attacked, before you can do anything useful you die.

 

I prefer 4v4 or smaller engagements, because that's where you can see what's happening. You can track what abilities were used etc. Anything that's more than 8v8 is pure chaos. My brain simply can't process what's happening and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

Going back to OWPvP, we already have PvP world instances and my suggestion is to use those.

 

First, to address the game engine issue, those PvP instances could be population capped to much lower number (for example 8 for each faction). In addition to that, those instances could be reduced to a smaller map and optimized for PvP (no companions, less NPCs, less trees, grass and more objects that could be used for LoS play).

 

Second, to incentivize players to go these PvP instances create special PvP daily quests. It can be simple as kill X players, but also something more creative like kill players with orb, or with environment (lava, toxic water etc.) you know similar like we had for Gree event or traps in warzones. In addition, remove all gathering nodes from PvE instances and put them in PvP instances, increase yields to wealthy and increase spawn timers (as a side effect, any bots trying to farm nodes will get farmed by PvP players). You don't like PvP, send companions. You need lots of resources quick, well it'll come with a bit of risk. Also, I'd move all world bosses into PvP instances, but redesign them to be for 8m and have some real mechanics. And while you're at it, make use of these world bosses more in other events (like we have for cooking event). You can also put special NPCs that are needed for whatever farming, but don't aggro easily (like Lurker). Simply put, anything that's in open world that is contested should be moved to PvP instance, while story quests remain in PvE instance.

 

You can start with one world, see how it goes and then add additional in other patches. You'd be actually shipping PvP content once again. Assets are there, instances already exist, just a bit of shuffling of stuff, few tweaks here and there and we've got ourselves new content. Seems much cheaper then adding story content with all the voice-overs and cinematics, but with a lot of replayability.

Edited by frennky
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I'm all for OWPvP. I'd still play the Ilum PvP the game launched with had they not removed it altogether,

 

However, just look how many people are crying about "being forced to PvP" for GS or for conquest when they are not forced at all, but merely incentivized. Many of the changes you suggest would start a riot. As much as I like OWPvP, the truth is that if most players would rather wait in lines for respawn NPCs than risk switching to the PvP instance and having another player attack them.

 

We still have Outlaw's Den, but there isn't much incentive to go there. They can try to do something with that. If they can figure out how to get PvP happening there again, they could create more areas like that.

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However, just look how many people are crying about "being forced to PvP" for GS or for conquest when they are not forced at all, but merely incentivized. Many of the changes you suggest would start a riot.

 

Maybe, we don't know for sure. But I think it would be worth a try. Lets start with one planet and see how it goes.

 

We still have Outlaw's Den, but there isn't much incentive to go there. They can try to do something with that. If they can figure out how to get PvP happening there again, they could create more areas like that.

 

Last time I was there in PvE instance you couldn't be flagged. Same is for Ilum. Only way to get flagged is to go to PvP instance. Don't know if anything changed.

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Imagine a Korriban PvP instance that is an ancient tomb where you have to get some stuff an overseer asked you and you can fight the other acolytes there, but it will be restricted to low-level sith classes.

 

Nar Shaddaa and Tatooine PvP instance where you can join a gang (Black Sun, Exchange, Hutt Cartel) for a week and fight for control over sectors, more sectors you control, more credits you get daily. Gangs will "recruit" only if they are outnumbered or equal to make sure players are spread evenly. Reputation points, gear, and companions for every crime syndicate.

 

Balmorra, Corellia, Taris PvP instance where you fight on the frontlines for your chosen faction and capture the enemy's outposts by defeating its NPC commander. If an outpost is captured, every player in the outpost area gets rewards.

 

Bounty Board: Players can place and collect bounties on the other players, kind of like GTN but it can be accessed without any special terminal, you just type a name and deposit a price. The bounty board displays the name, level, class, price, and you can inspect the character sheet of players on the list. If the "victim" player is online, not afk, and not in a story or group activity, he can be "hunted down", and once you click "hunt down" at the bounty board you and the "victim" player both teleport to the new "duel instance" and fight. While in the duel instance the "hunter" and the "victim" players' stealth detection constantly increases. If the "victim" player is defeated he gets a "hunted" buff that prevents the other people from placing bounties on him for a week, and if he wins he gets a "survivor" crate with cool rewards. Once the "victim" is defeated, the price is delivered to the "hunter" via in-game mail, and the person that placed the bounty gets a stronghold decoration with the "victim" player model put in carbonite. The bounty price and slot stay on a board until the "victim" is hunted down, which means that multiple players can try to hunt down a single target (not at once tho, they still get to fight 1v1). Of course, this bounty board idea will work best only with better 1v1 balance changes, still decided to share it cuz it sounds cool, at least in my head:tran_cool:

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Yeah I know you came here just to say it's not gonna happen, because the game engine is old and can't handle whatever...But, it all depends how you look at it. We do have PvP that is, for the most part, running ok.

 

 

Not always, and that is the issue, some of the maps, mostly HB have massive lag spikes, and dysync issues. On an open world, where there is a lot more detail to render it can cause huge issues, which is one of the reason why OWPvP won't work.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not much of a pvp fan, but OWPvP is a different ball game, can be a lot of fun, and more light hearted. I've done it on ilum, in the old days, and on the gree event, when we had more people trying it, and of course, outlaws den. This was all fun, but the lag when the groups got big was horrendous. Even now, when you get the odd battle over the commanders, you can still see a lot of the issues.

 

BUT, they have been talking about improving the engine, not a new one, but improvements, and also about changes to PvP, etc so it could be possible they might be doing something to improve the prospect of OWPvP

 

 

Bounty Board: /snip :

 

Only if it's an opt in option :)

Edited by DarkTergon
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Only if it's an opt in option :)

I see :D. How about being able to put a bounty on someone only if that player reached a certain amount of Valor level, like over 50 or smth? Choosing to not being hunted isn't how it should work IMO, but I can understand if someone can get annoyed by this))

Edited by Voroschuk
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I see :D. How about being able to put a bounty on someone only if that player reached a certain amount of Valor level, like over 50 or smth? Choosing to not being hunted isn't how it should work IMO, but I can understand if someone can get annoyed by this))

 

No, what I mean is, you can only put a bounty on a player who participates, as in the opt in to it. Anything else would be chaos. People are not going to want to be hunted, and would be very annoyed if they started getting attacked on PvE instances because some one put a bounty on them

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I 100% support this idea but i would ONLY participate if characters that fit within the level ranges of the planet could do this. it would be a good substitute for the lack of lowbie PVP and players like me might participate if they knew that they weren't going to get camped out by endgame players at the spawn points.
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Not always, and that is the issue, some of the maps, mostly HB have massive lag spikes, and dysync issues. On an open world, where there is a lot more detail to render it can cause huge issues, which is one of the reason why OWPvP won't work.

 

Huttball maps are a different kind. They have multiple levels, even the original map has all those platforms. This is why I mentioned that world maps should be optimized for PvP. Remove trees, grass, any platforms/levels, reduce the size etc.

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Huttball maps are a different kind. They have multiple levels, even the original map has all those platforms. This is why I mentioned that world maps should be optimized for PvP. Remove trees, grass, any platforms/levels, reduce the size etc.

 

I'm not sure they'd remove stuff just to have some pvp, but maybe they could add in more areas like outlaws den, that could be optimised for pvp, without affecting pve maps. But as I've said before, if people really want OWPvP, they need to start organising events , etc, themselves, and show the devs that there is an interest in it. The more events you've running, the more interest people show, the bigger the chance that the devs might listen.

Edited by DarkTergon
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Nar Shaddaa and Tatooine PvP instance where you can join a gang (Black Sun, Exchange, Hutt Cartel) for a week and fight for control over sectors, more sectors you control, more credits you get daily. Gangs will "recruit" only if they are outnumbered or equal to make sure players are spread evenly. Reputation points, gear, and companions for every crime syndicate.

 

Balmorra, Corellia, Taris PvP instance where you fight on the frontlines for your chosen faction and capture the enemy's outposts by defeating its NPC commander. If an outpost is captured, every player in the outpost area gets rewards.

 

Nice ideas, they definitely have potential. I'd only add that in order to avoid spreading already low population to multiple locations, to organize these as events. For example 1 month of turf war on Nar Shaddaa, then truce, then 1 month of Rep/Imp war on Balmorra, then truce etc...

 

Bounty Board: Players can place and collect bounties on the other players, kind of like GTN but it can be accessed without any special terminal, you just type a name and deposit a price. The bounty board displays the name, level, class, price, and you can inspect the character sheet of players on the list. If the "victim" player is online, not afk, and not in a story or group activity, he can be "hunted down", and once you click "hunt down" at the bounty board you and the "victim" player both teleport to the new "duel instance" and fight. While in the duel instance the "hunter" and the "victim" players' stealth detection constantly increases. If the "victim" player is defeated he gets a "hunted" buff that prevents the other people from placing bounties on him for a week, and if he wins he gets a "survivor" crate with cool rewards. Once the "victim" is defeated, the price is delivered to the "hunter" via in-game mail, and the person that placed the bounty gets a stronghold decoration with the "victim" player model put in carbonite. The bounty price and slot stay on a board until the "victim" is hunted down, which means that multiple players can try to hunt down a single target (not at once tho, they still get to fight 1v1). Of course, this bounty board idea will work best only with better 1v1 balance changes, still decided to share it cuz it sounds cool, at least in my head:tran_cool:

 

I've seen many similar suggestions and I like the general idea, but every suggestion I've seen lacks some critical details, primarily:

  • Why would someone want to be hunted?
  • And how to prevent exploiting the system? (Two friends hunt each other)

 

My suggestion would be to try something as follows:

 

Target puts in credits in a pot (BH guild system), lets say 1m, hunter puts same amount. They get a 'pop' and play some kind of hide and seek or death match with points game. When timer expires winner takes all credits from pot (minus BH guild fee as credit sink).

 

Another scenario is if there are multiple hunters, they all put money in the pot. If target wins it takes ALL credits, if a hunter wins, he takes his and targets credits, all other hunters lose credits. Then maybe put in free for all PvP so hunters can compete against each other.

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[*]Why would someone want to be hunted?

It fits the Star Wars fantasy, the more notorious you become, the more enemies you get, and it's kind of an ego boost to see someone bothering to offer a pile of credits for someone else to chase you. Also, If the victim survives it gets rewards, and it will feel really good to win multiple hunters in a row.

[*]And how to prevent exploiting the system? (Two friends hunt each other)

Players can't claim the bounties they put on a board and they can't put a bounty on themselves, and the "hunter" can't try to claim the same bounty multiple times in a row, if you lose, you are out. The minimum price for the bounty can be set, let's say 5 mil. That should prevent 2 players from hunting each other.

 

Once again:

To put a bounty on someone's head you have to deposit a price first. You can't claim that bounty. Everyone else can see that bounty and can try to claim it. Once the "victim" is defeated, the deposited price is sent to the "hunter" via in-game mail, and the person that put a bounty gets a mail with an SH decoration ("victim" player in carbonite). The "victim" gets a buff that forbids other players from putting a bounty on him for a week. If the hunter is defeated, he gets nothing and he can't try to claim that bounty again, but can still try to claim the other bounties on a board. The "victim" that killed a "hunter" gets a reward, but it can still be hunted.

 

Feel free to explain how exactly this system can be exploited ).

Edited by Voroschuk
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My suggestion would be to try something as follows:

 

Target puts in credits in a pot (BH guild system), lets say 1m, hunter puts same amount. They get a 'pop' and play some kind of hide and seek or death match with points game. When timer expires winner takes all credits from pot (minus BH guild fee as credit sink).

 

Another scenario is if there are multiple hunters, they all put money in the pot. If target wins it takes ALL credits, if a hunter wins, he takes his and targets credits, all other hunters lose credits. Then maybe put in free for all PvP so hunters can compete against each other.

Those are interesting ideas for PvP in general, but they don't represent the "bounty hunting" system. My idea was to create a client-hunter-prey relationship that will work for everyone and won't be exploited for harassing the other players (thus the 7- day buff once you get "hunted", cuz this is hardly annoying to lose a duel once in a week, and Valor lvl requirement, to make sure PvE'ers and casuals are excluded)

 

By the way, this idea isn't something completely new, the invasions in Dark Souls are much more unforgiving, but players still have fun /shrug. And once again: no point in implementing this system until we'll get some sort of 1v1 balance.

Edited by Voroschuk
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It fits the Star Wars fantasy, the more notorious you become, the more enemies you get, and it's kind of an ego boost to see someone bothering to offer a pile of credits for someone else to chase you. Also, If the victim survives it gets rewards, and it will feel really good to win multiple hunters in a row.

 

The way you described the system so far, I don't see why would someone want to be hunted. I first wouldn't bother to be a target in this case. Please describe the rewards that target gets. In order for system to work, both sides need to have something at stake. They both need to have an opportunity to get or lose something of value to them.

 

Also, If the victim survives it gets rewards, and it will feel really good to win multiple hunters in a row.

What are those rewards? Credits? In that case there needs to be some fee as a credit sink. If it's not credits then you could essentially, buy the rewards if they have more value to you then credits by putting a bounty on yourself.

 

Players can't claim the bounties they put on a board and they can't put a bounty on themselves

You can always give credits to a friend to raise a bounty on you.

 

and the "hunter" can't try to claim the same bounty multiple times in a row, if you lose, you are out.

That is if it locks out entire legacy and not just a character, otherwise, players will switch to an alt.

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Please describe the rewards that target gets. In order for system to work, both sides need to have something at stake.

If the target player wins they get a "survivor" crate, that can contain credits, tech frags, mats, anything valuable, while the hunter player gets the credits from the client player. It depends on a minimum bounty price, really, if it is 1mil minimum to put a bounty on somebody, then the crate contains items that are worth 1mil at least, better more, like 500 Tech Frags or something.

Unique achievements and titles for both targets and hunters would be a cool thing as well.

Edited by Voroschuk
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You can always give credits to a friend to raise a bounty on you.

But you will never know for sure if the first one to claim that bounty would be the "right" person that will lose to you on purpose. If the bounty board will mix the list, and you won't be able to "sort by new", huge chance that your friends won't be the first to "hunt" you.

Edited by Voroschuk
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My idea was to create a client-hunter-prey relationship that will work for everyone and won't be exploited for harassing the other players.

I see. Well, that is more like a real world bounty system. Not sure it would work in virtual world. There's no good reason to raise a bounty in such a case. Why would someone do that? Because he's butthurt from some PvP match? That's not a good enough reason. And the system needs to be opt in, meaning all sides must want this. Having less sides, means you need to satisfy less interests. That's why hunter-pray system seems easier to implement.

 

But you will never know for sure if the first one to claim that bounty would be the "right" person that will lose to you on purpose. If the bounty board will mix the list, and you won't be able to "sort by new", huge chance that your friends won't be the first to "hunt" you.

This can only work in such a way if there is constantly a lot of bounties. Never base a system on such assumptions. In current state of server population, if it's 3am 2 players can manipulate such a system easy. Or even a single player on two game clients.

 

I see you're really up for a BH system, and I'd be interested to see something like that, but it's a bit too much to ask at this point, maybe for 8.0. Other suggestions in this thread regarding OWPvP would require far less dev and design time and yet provide new PvP content.

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While not a fan of pvp (I hate it) as long as it is left to the pvp instances then they should do something to encourage pvp players to play those instances and that way I can play on my pve instances without worrying if I will be attack because unfortunely SWTOR didn't fix the problems where AOE could cause another player to be put into pvp. SWG knew how to do this right and therefore no amount of throwing AOE under a player could cause this and unfortunely SWTOR didn't do it right as it was causing players to be put in pvp but if it is left on the pvp instances, go for it.
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There's no good reason to raise a bounty in such a case. Why would someone do that?

The client player gets a SH decoration of the target player's model put in carbonite. If you don't see how would anyone want a unique decoration of a particular player hanging on his wall you clearly underestimate the power of the lulz))

I see you're really up for a BH system, and I'd be interested to see something like that, but it's a bit too much to ask at this point, maybe for 8.0. Other suggestions in this thread regarding OWPvP would require far less dev and design time and yet provide new PvP content.

Yeh, obviously this is too much to ask for, just playing around with ideas)

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While not a fan of pvp (I hate it) as long as it is left to the pvp instances then they should do something to encourage pvp players to play those instances and that way I can play on my pve instances without worrying if I will be attack because unfortunely SWTOR didn't fix the problems where AOE could cause another player to be put into pvp. SWG knew how to do this right and therefore no amount of throwing AOE under a player could cause this and unfortunely SWTOR didn't do it right as it was causing players to be put in pvp but if it is left on the pvp instances, go for it.

 

Wait what? Do you have a clip with this bug? As far as I know you can't be flagged in PvE instance, not even if you go to Outlaw's Den (even though red text says it's a PvP area).

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Wait what? Do you have a clip with this bug? As far as I know you can't be flagged in PvE instance, not even if you go to Outlaw's Den (even though red text says it's a PvP area).

 

This is why they made separate instances. During launch and afterwards (before the separate instances) this was a major problem especially when you were out doing weeklies or missions when you actually needed to flag and people actually would come up when you were killing an elite and do an AOE therefore causing you to be flagged and now since we have separate instances, it cannot be done.

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I think that all had to do with companions. Our comps are technically NPCs. Once a comp "entered a battle" with another player that was flagged for PvP, it would also flag the player character. I always played on PvP servers, so never really noticed it happen, but I remember forum posts complaining about it.
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