Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

JattaGin's Avatar


JattaGin
07.19.2021 , 02:54 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Game is too easy. I'm happy to see DCD's get the chop in 7.0.
Do you mean that you are actually looking forward to needing double as much time to kill the same mobs you've killed hundreds of times before? To me, this is just tedious. What this game needs is NEW stuff, and not changes to OLD stuff. Because that old stuff will remain old nonetheless.

Quote: Originally Posted by TevosisHot View Post
Funny thing a lot of the imbalance was introduced with the most recent gearing and tactical system, why don't they tweak/remove rebalance that instead of removing abilities that have been there since 1.0? so vanilla game wasnt balanced either
Hear, hear.

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
Or they actually did. And maybe notice the change history of those abilities. Like the fact that cooldowns of all of them have been severely reduced, or that they also come with powerful utilities that were not originally there for the abilities. To use a simple example that spring to mind instantly, Enure has now the half of cooldown it did at launch, and can cleanse with utilities. Saber Reflect got a master utility that nearly doubles the ability duration. Those are massively powerful upgrades.
By that logic, the solution would be to re-balance those abilities and not take them away.

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
A lot of people make claims about how they have played since the beginning, and seem to forget how the game evolved over the years. DPS classes have gotten enough defensive utilities that it is entirely possible to solo bosses of MM FPs with a DPS companion. Let me say that again: It is entirely possible to solo a boss that's supposed to require a balance team of four to overcome. It is actually one of the recommended ways of getting tech frags! I've seen videos of people soloing operations bosses.
The reason that people can solo bosses is not because of too many defensive utilities.

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
That is, very clearly, not the intended way to play the game. So, you are left with two options: Either increase the difficult of all the content in the game to the point that only top 1% of players will be able to successfully finish it, or you take away the tools that have made classes too powerful for the content.
It was BW's deliberate decision to make more content soloable back then. It is one intended way to play the game. Don't pretend that it's a common thing that players solo OP bosses.

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
And catering to ultra elite players was never a particularly efficient solution, especially from a F2P game perspective. And by the way, regardless of what doomsayers say, it doesn't actually have that much of an impact on the player base. People will preach how everyone lowed MoP WoW gameplay, but ignore the fact that the game population has steadily dropped in that era, not risen. And people have always said that anything Bioware does will kill this game. I've heard it since 2012. ****, you can actually go back to the Disciplines threads from 2014, and you will see the exact same type of doomsaying. "They are dumbing it down! This will kill the game! Stupid devs ruining everything!". And yet, the game is still around. As it always is, despite the overreactions on this board.
Ultra elite players? What does that even mean?

Since you claim that it was always just doom and gloom and never had an actual effect on the game, let me remind you of this:

We once had dozens of servers. Then a lot of people left, because they didn't like what BW did with that game. Eventually it was down to 9 US servers and 9 EU servers. Then even more people left, because they didn't like what BW did with that game. Eventually it was down to 5 servers worldwide. 5! And those 5 servers have about the same kind of numbers we had before on 5 of the 18 servers. E. g. Darth Malgus has around the same numbers now that The Red Eclipse had before the merger. But DM includes also The Progenitor which had just slightly less players than TRE and a third server (name forgotten). So the numbers of DM should be at least double as high if it would be the same amount of players we had on the three combined servers before. But we don't have those numbers. Which is proof that we have less players now than before.

The game is still around, sure, but it's not even remotely on a size as BEFORE BW decided on things which a majority of the players disliked. BW has been on a constant road of killing the game since 2012. With every update a little bit more. Deny it as much as you like. The metrics prove it. 5 servers worldwide are left. Fact!

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
No, actually, I don't. Since there are no official stats, you have basically pulled that out of your ***.
Do you seriously claim that the remaining 5 servers have the same amount or more players than several dozen servers in 2012?

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
And they will not look for it here, but rather on reddit,
From Reddit... OK, you got me good there. Nicely trolled, making me reply to your posts.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
07.19.2021 , 03:16 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by JattaGin View Post
Do you mean that you are actually looking forward to needing double as much time to kill the same mobs you've killed hundreds of times before? To me, this is just tedious. What this game needs is NEW stuff, and not changes to OLD stuff. Because that old stuff will remain old nonetheless.
Double the TTK? The devs are nerfing dcd's, not offensive power.

But anyway, I'm just happy for a new meta. I'm not sure what the devs are up to, but I'm guessing it's more than what has been announced so far.
Beruhl (ง︡'-'︠)ง ~ ADAL-IstyanFiend
8 pugs and a grophet can i borrow a stim?
Quote: Originally Posted by Trolltar View Post
I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
Thanks Rion Starbrah.

captainbladejk's Avatar


captainbladejk
07.19.2021 , 05:37 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Double the TTK? The devs are nerfing dcd's, not offensive power.

But anyway, I'm just happy for a new meta. I'm not sure what the devs are up to, but I'm guessing it's more than what has been announced so far.
I'm glad someone can finally admit it's a nerf. Either way you go it's an unnecessary nerf that guts the classes for no valid reason at all. Even still they asked for feedback, and no matter how you slice it, this will negatively impact the game overall. You don't create broader toolkits by removing abilities. As for a new meta, if you think it's too easy right now, take the abilities you feel are unnecessary off your bars and play without them. Nothing is forcing you to keep using all the abilities you have if you think it's too easy. But of course that's not a good enough solution for you people. You want everyone else to be forced to play like you. If you want your "new meta" then take the abilities off your bars you feel are unnecessary and leave me out of it. I prefer my characters without the lobotomy and false upgrades thank you.

captainbladejk's Avatar


captainbladejk
07.19.2021 , 05:38 PM | #24
Also for the folks who question if I am truly a founder, here is a screencap from the character I used in the video. You can see the founder title very easily. https://imgur.com/a/YAN6AcC

Omega's Avatar


Omega
07.19.2021 , 06:42 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
Also for the folks who question if I am truly a founder, here is a screencap from the character I used in the video. You can see the founder title very easily. https://imgur.com/a/YAN6AcC
Why does that matter?

As member 1503, I say my opinion means more than yours, member 992,654.

Seriously, stop pretending that makes you more qualified than anyone else.

captainbladejk's Avatar


captainbladejk
07.19.2021 , 07:02 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Why does that matter?

As member 1503, I say my opinion means more than yours, member 992,654.

Seriously, stop pretending that makes you more qualified than anyone else.
Dude wants to think I'm lying, well that shoots his theory down, simple as that.

As for everything else, use legitimate arguments instead of emotional appeals and there will be no issues. So far I don't see that from your camp. As far as knowledge goes, yes how dare I as a long time player of this game that's seen everything they've done speak up. How dare I not be for lobotomizing my classes and so on. Seriously dude, if you think something I've said is wrong, then use your words, use legitimate logical arguments. So far only one person in here has tried to use logic based arguments to have actual debate.

Kaizersan's Avatar


Kaizersan
07.19.2021 , 07:08 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
Dude wants to think I'm lying, well that shoots his theory down, simple as that.

As for everything else, use legitimate arguments instead of emotional appeals and there will be no issues. So far I don't see that from your camp. As far as knowledge goes, yes how dare I as a long time player of this game that's seen everything they've done speak up. How dare I not be for lobotomizing my classes and so on. Seriously dude, if you think something I've said is wrong, then use your words, use legitimate logical arguments. So far only one person in here has tried to use logic based arguments to have actual debate.
So I have to ask why do you keep funding the game if you don't like the direction the game is going in as money is the only thing EA cares about so if you want to show EA how serious you are unsub and quit playing the game otherwise all EA sees you as is a big talker but in the end won't pull the trigger and quit.

Omega's Avatar


Omega
07.19.2021 , 07:11 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
Dude wants to think I'm lying, well that shoots his theory down, simple as that.

As for everything else, use legitimate arguments instead of emotional appeals and there will be no issues. So far I don't see that from your camp. As far as knowledge goes, yes how dare I as a long time player of this game that's seen everything they've done speak up. How dare I not be for lobotomizing my classes and so on. Seriously dude, if you think something I've said is wrong, then use your words, use legitimate logical arguments. So far only one person in here has tried to use logic based arguments to have actual debate.
The fact that you can have this outburst and claim you're using facts and logic and not an argument from emotion is one of the reason that I quit these forums so long ago and don't engage in this nonsense.

I'm good. As a mega-veteran, I know that Bioware is not going to listen to you. I've seen it all happen before, as have you. You don't know better than them. And the exact reason I left these forums long ago is the same reason Bioware shouldn't take any feedback from here: its a toxic cesspit.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
07.19.2021 , 07:16 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
It is massively easier to remove the abilities that cause problems than to adjust 27 flashpoints and 11 ops. Especially when you also have to create content for the new expansion. And to be quite frank, some of those defensive abilities that they have left in the game I would have removed entirely from the balance perspective.
Do you think they wonít ALSO have to redo flash points and operations with these changes? Jackieís post already alluded theyíll have to adjust boss fights to balance the removal of DCDs. So theyíll actually be doubling up on the work than if they just adjusted boss fights.

The real reason we have balance problems isnít the DCDs, itís the horizontal gearing and tacticals that have been added.

Here is my reasoning from another thread.

Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Iíve also pointed out in my feedback that this ďbalanceĒ reason for nerfing DCDs is a problem of Biowares own making when they added horizontal gearing with tacticals and multiple gear sets that make some combos too OP.
They are lying to themselves (and us) if they think itís the DCDs causing balance issues in pvp.

Letís look at mid pvp as an example where there arenít any tacticals and limited set bonuses.
* Bolster takes care of gear so everyone basically has the same stats ✅
* In mid pvp where only lvl 70+ can have one type of set bonus per class, the games are pretty balanced (when match making works and puts similar lvls together) and TTK is much lower than at lvl 75 ✅
* In mid pvp the performance of the game runs smoother ✅
* There is much less Desync and lag affects and FPS is better too ✅
* In lvl 75 the Desync can make it nearly unplayable sometimes ❌
* In lvl 75 TTK is much higher with certain ďcheeseĒ builds ❌

Whatís the differences here?
* At lvl 74 we already have all of our DCDs, so itís not them causing the increased TTK at lvl 75 ✅
* At lvl 74 we have less performance issues from the game engine, so itís not DCDs causing the problems ✅
* At lvl 75 we gain 1 more utility and horizontal gearing with multiple gear sets and different types of tacticals ❌ Bingo

Now I donít think itís that last utility choice thatís causing the balance and performance problems. But I canít rule it out. So the solution is limit it to 8 utility choices instead of 9 and test it. Iím 99.99% sure the results will show itís not that.
Which means the greatly increased performance issues since 6.0 and balance issues are because of horizontal gearing system they added.

But instead of admitting this mistake and recognising that players warned them of this last expansion when they were developing it on the pts, they try and shift the blame to DCDs that have mostly been in the game since the launch.
Itís the same disingenuous sleight of hand BioWare has used for years to deflect their own mis-steps when they donít listen to player feedback. They are just trying to fix a problem they created that will create another problem and drive more players from the game.

But because they made such a fuss over horizontal gearing and made it an RNG hell grind to get some items, they canít or wonít back track on it for what ever personal / corporate reasons.

When the easiest fix to most balance issues in pvp is to bring back pvp specific gear that is one set per class. That and separating utilities into pvp and pve builds and adjusting some of the passive immunities that certain abilities give.
This would also help (but not fix) the performance issues. Most of the performance issues are due to all the added extra mobile abilities they added to the game since launch.

Bioware say they added all these extra DCDs since launch, but as another thread has shown, thatís mostly untrue. Where as theyíve constantly increased and added to extra mobility to all classes in nearly ever other expansion. Itís at the point now where some classes move so fast it would have been considered a speed hack prior to 2.0.
On top of the speed and extra gap closers or escapes that nearly every class has now, theyíve constantly added more stuns, mez, slows and CC to some classes. And to combat that they added lots of passive immunities or utilities.
Combine all of that with tacticals and 20 different gear sets and thatís why we have performance issues and balance problems. Itís definitely not the DCDs causing that problem.

If BioWare want to fix game performance and enjoyment (which should be their number one priority as far as Iím concerned), then they should be concentrating on whatís actually causing the problems instead of trying to obfuscate it.

I think we all understand they canít tell us all their secrets, but they need to be more open and honest with the players, especially those doing the testing for them and providing feedback. What good is our feedback if itís skewed to begin with because they arenít honest with us about their reasons?

Sadly, it looks like BioWare are going to do what they always do. Ignore overwhelming player feedback and make more fundamental mistakes that drive away more players in the long term then they attract in the short term. Which could be a fatal mistake this time since theyíve driven so many players away that they have to bribe people to play some group content or it would never pop.

Iím really hoping cooler heads will prevail this time and some common sense will win out for once and BioWare will back track on this idea to remove or amalgamate DCD abilities and utilities to dumb down the game to fix problems they created with another system players warned them about last expansion. If not, we really donít have the population anymore for the game to survive another mass exodus like 5.0. If they bungle this expansion, I fear the game wonít last another 18 months.
Do you want to be a better objective pvper?
Click here for a ďHow to PvP GuideĒ

TevosisHot's Avatar


TevosisHot
07.19.2021 , 07:26 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Double the TTK? The devs are nerfing dcd's, not offensive power.

But anyway, I'm just happy for a new meta. I'm not sure what the devs are up to, but I'm guessing it's more than what has been announced so far.
Guardian leap, saber throw and freezing force are not defensive cooldowns, and if what has been speculated about tying cc break and interrupt to other existing abilities is true that isnt a defensive cooldown either, those are changes to fundamental gameplay elements that have been in the game since 1.0.
If they wanted to balance defensive cooldowns they could've perfectly tweaked cd time, duration, gear sets and tacticals, instead of reinventing the wheel and throwing vanilla content down the toilet for the sake of balancing.

As the op has very well explained I dunno why they think at this stage in the games life cycle gutting classes of abilities they've had since vanilla is a good idea.

Adjust guard dmg transfer in pvp adjust cooldowns on certain defensive and utilities if you want, hell even revamp the abilities window separating passives from active abilities and maybe put some type of recommended for experienced players tag on abilities that are not part of the core rotation of a spec, so newer players or people that don't care much about gameplay can just put the bare minimum abilities on their bars, done. No need to reinvent the wheel and alienate players that have been loyal customers for years.