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100 Scout games - experiment


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How effective / viable are scouts in the current meta? Its often been said they still rule the roost in Domination, but are too easily peeled in TDM. Protorps one-shot evasion scouts. Bomber nests often make you feel like you're flying a ship made of glass. You have to engage at close range which makes pressure situations hard. Slugs can one-shot a Scout if they crit. You can't tank things like you can in a Strike. So.... are Scouts viable to main, if you wanted to? Let's find out.

 

The experiment - Brand new toon - 100 games - Only Scouts -Nothing else. The toon has 4 Scouts on the bar, all with different builds for different modes and situations or purposes. The builds might change during the course of the experiment. Well, one or two of them might.

 

I am going to record all 100 games in the experiment, and post them to my channel in a specific playlist for this experiment. So you'll get to see the good the bad and the nasty. I'll post select games here, occasionally, and at the end I will post the stats screen shots for the individual Scouts, and overall. Game titles will be listed as "Scout only - Game 1 - Map" and if necessary a single word like "stomp", "comeback" or "close" so that you have a clue of what to expect.

 

There is no specific target that I am aiming for here in terms of win ratio, average damage or whatever. What happens happens. I am just curious to see how it compares to my toons that use Gunships and Strikes, and traditionally do not use Scouts for certain situations.

 

Edit - All games will be solo, and the ships are mastered before the first game.

Edited by Ttoilleekul
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First ten games played, and ten wins. I can't imagine it will continue this way, I just didn't have much opposition. The closest and most fun match was this one
coming from behind to win it. Edited by Ttoilleekul
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Game 11. First loss.

 

Remember I am recording and posting all 100 games, no matter what. This is the "worst" match I have had yet. As soon as I am stomped on, I will post it here. It just hasn't happened yet.

 

13 games in, I am already starting to form some new / different opinions about flying Scouts in every match. But I will not expand on that until the end.

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Three games today where I really didn't want to be in a Scout. Two Denons, one where my team was oblivious to which node they needed to be at and instead chased kills, the other where we couldn't hold nodes against the enemy having a beacon and swarming us. The third match was a narrow Kuat TDM loss where I felt a Strike would've been better, and could maybe have won. Two of these matches were against a two man premade, good pilots I have seen around before. i'll post one of them tomorrow when they upload, probably the Denon where my team is oblivious to nodes, and trying to save / cap nodes just does not pay off.

 

There was also one win, which although a narrow win, I think would've been a much easier win if I had been in GS. In the Scout I had to be careful attacking a wall of bombers and Gunships.

 

Games 11-20 definitely presented much more challenge than games 1-10. That said, overall win ratio is at 77%, so exclusively playing Scouts is sill working, for now.

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One of the aforementioned matches from yesterday where I really didn't want to be in a Scout. As you can see from the end ranks, my team had the fire power to win this match, but there wasn't enough awareness on my team of which node they needed to be at. That left me often outnumbered trying to save a node against two bombers who were premade, and gunships sniping me from off node. Often when I would die, the map would show most of my team nowhere near the node we just lost. In the role of being one of the only people trying to hold a node long enough for your team to arrive, a tanky T2F build would have worked much better, especially since you can spam EMP at the node. To be fair, there is another Battle Scout on my team that pulls better numbers than me, but I question how much he was off node, or on the wrong node, because any time I went near the node under threat, I got squished. That or he got lucky in kills, since our damage output was equal.

 

https://youtu.be/xfnmzIpw944

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gonna say it, even though you know it, " Welcome to the Solo World" :p

 

really came here to say I enjoy watching your videos, I get jealous and mad when I watch them as well. It's due that I deal with a lot of latency and some lag. One thing I don't see in your videos

 

Situation awareness , there is a lack of that in majority of the solo matches , I actually never been in a group, so not aware if it happens in group queue as well. That would totally suck if it did. Some times others do listen, even though they are not situational aware what's happening , and needed to go.

I doubt 60% of the players even look at the mini map

 

I'm pretty sure you know all these things, I just wanted to say more then " I enjoy watching your videos" :cool:

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gonna say it, even though you know it, " Welcome to the Solo World" :p

 

really came here to say I enjoy watching your videos, I get jealous and mad when I watch them as well. It's due that I deal with a lot of latency and some lag. One thing I don't see in your videos

 

Situation awareness , there is a lack of that in majority of the solo matches , I actually never been in a group, so not aware if it happens in group queue as well. That would totally suck if it did. Some times others do listen, even though they are not situational aware what's happening , and needed to go.

I doubt 60% of the players even look at the mini map

 

I'm pretty sure you know all these things, I just wanted to say more then " I enjoy watching your videos" :cool:

 

Yeah solo queuing is a tough life. I've gotten to the point where I have several toons stable at 70%+ win ratios now, 90% solo queuing. But, you have to work so hard for it. I still stagger to think how Invis has better stats than that! As a high end solo queuer, you need to have tremendous map awareness, damage efficiency, and know how best to serve your team at any one moment.

 

Glad you like the videos. If it helps in any way, I've done my job.

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Was quite lucky today I think with games 29-37. I picked up a cold and it effected my concentration. I certainly wasn't feeling at my best, but somehow still managed 7 wins from 9 games.

 

I said I would post the first stomp loss when it happens, and well, it hasn't yet. Game 35 was the closest to a stomp loss I've had so far. Ended 27-50 against. For me, a true stomp is 20-50 or worse. Particularly when it gets down as low as 15-50 or worse, you really feel the difference in the tone of the match. (As I said in another thread, an especially good pilot will experience less stomp losses - and 37 games without one is proving that) Game 35 was still a heavy loss though, and an interesting test -

 

If and when I get a real stomp in this scout experiment, again, I will post it here.

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Could you make a post or a video where you show your builds? I liked your videos so far but I am interested in your component selections. Thanks in advance!

 

Hi, I have already done so. Here you are - https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=993310

Those ships and builds are my normal loud outs, I've only listed the five ships I use most commonly for now, so three of the builds in this experiment are not on there. But I'll add other ships to the build list in time.

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I was still not on my best form today. Still getting over this cold which effects my concentration. Played 7, won 5, lost 2. At least one of the losses was vs a 4 man premade. Here is the other one - game 38 https://youtu.be/mQxpdr2VNRM - I finished with a rare negative KDR 3-6 scoreline in what was not a stomp at all. I am not certain whether this video was also against the same premade. One of the names certainly was in the premade I lost to a few games later. In this video they had a GS wall with bomber support, which is basically a Scout's worse nightmare. Which is why I am putting it up, because if I had a Gunship on the bar, I am confident this match would've been much closer, especially since my team had centre map control - and hence DO control - it woul've been pretty easy to do some devastating damage in a GS. But, in the scout, it was impossible (at least in my slow state) to get into engagement range without being targeted by two of the Gunships. So I really feel like this match, more than any other so far, highlights the weakness of the ship. For sure a Strike could've done a little better with the extra range and proton threat, but as I have told people many times, in matches like this, you want to be in a Gunship yourself.

 

44 games played - 72.72% win ratio so far.

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To be fair, that looked a lot more like a quads and pods or laser cannon and pods sort of game than a BLC-clusters sort of game.

 

BLC-clusters are great 1 v. 1 against a slippery opponent, but the time to kill is a bit slower than pods builds, which is a problem if the rest of the red team are paying attention. It's also enough weaker against bombers that you can really feel it sometimes.

 

Your experiment has inspired me to get into scouts a bit more recently. After a few games of BLC-cluster build I came away feeling like it is the best for keeping one or two skilled opponents busy if they are in scouts or gunships, but that's such a niche situation that I'd rather have either a BLC-pods for Domination games or a Quads and Pods build for TDMs over the BLC-cluster build. It's still the best at what it does, but what it does isn't called for much these days.

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To be fair, that looked a lot more like a quads and pods or laser cannon and pods sort of game than a BLC-clusters sort of game.

 

BLC-clusters are great 1 v. 1 against a slippery opponent, but the time to kill is a bit slower than pods builds, which is a problem if the rest of the red team are paying attention. It's also enough weaker against bombers that you can really feel it sometimes.

 

Your experiment has inspired me to get into scouts a bit more recently. After a few games of BLC-cluster build I came away feeling like it is the best for keeping one or two skilled opponents busy if they are in scouts or gunships, but that's such a niche situation that I'd rather have either a BLC-pods for Domination games or a Quads and Pods build for TDMs over the BLC-cluster build. It's still the best at what it does, but what it does isn't called for much these days.

 

Yeah that's a fair assessment. I'm using clusters in TDM because they add pressure and force mistakes, With DO they deal nice damage, and make it easier to chase down evasive targets. Still 100% a pod lover for Domination though.

 

As far as this video was concerned - Evasion just doesn't seem to take you far when you've got 2-3 decent Gunships with Wingman keeping one eye on you. I'd probably take Piledriver into that battle before I went Quad pods, simply because of my vast experience playing T1F against Gunship walls. But, i'd still rather take a gunship. The way they were sitting back letting us come to them, giving us center control, I fancy this would've been a win with a Gunship.

 

I recently did a 100 game try-hard effort to get an 80% win ratio. I succeeded, 81% from 100 games. My T1G on that toon, which is almost exclusively played in TDM, came away with a 97% win ratio. So the confidence is high that this was a Gunship game.

 

But I am drawing more conclusions about how viable scouts are, compared to what I used to think. I want to wait until the 100 game mark to voice my thoughts. But for now I'll say it feels better than expected.

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Well, this was bound to happen, I've been waiting for it, and expecting it, and it finally arrived. A night of really tough matches for being in a Scout. Games 45 - 57, 7 wins, 6 losses. Two premades, floating around, me usually ending up opposite them. Bomber spams, Gunship walls, both together, and everything that makes it a nightmare for a Scout. As someone who preaches the importance of ship adaptability > being in the right ship for the right circumstance, I found myself very locked out in a bunch of matches tonight. Even in a couple of wins. Scouts were just not working. Partly because one of those premades (well, they were a duo) is a friend of mine who has returned from SWS and I know he always uses voice in premades. So two pilots tracking you and coordinating focus on you, emp'ing you on cooldown... etc etc is painful, especially when there's a Bomber / Gunship ball and you can't get close to it in a Scout. I also had some bad teams that I just couldn't carry, and generally the worst night yet. I'm honestly amazed this didn't happen earlier. I've seen some of the very best pilots to ever play this game abandon a Scout in such matches, and that's what it felt like tonight.

 

On a more positive note, I did set a new Personal Best for damage in a Scout. 138k. Previous best was 120k ish.

 

Win ratio has plummeted. 57 games played, 68.42%. I wasn't expecting or aiming for a specific win ratio here, but it was starting to look like 70%+ was doable. Not so sure now.

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So I promised I would bring the first actual stomp when it happens, and then I was spoiled for choice getting three on the same night. Two of them were Domination matches, which are more about the team not trying to hold nodes, so I'm going to post the TDM here. While it technically does not fit into my 20-50 or worse requirements for a stomp, it certainly felt and played out like one. So it counts for me. This is the one against the two man voiced premade. They clocked my toon name from the previous match and as you can see here they did a good job of keeping me suppressed. Constant EMP combined with a Gunships and bombers made it near impossible to get in there and do any effective damage. I probably would've gone for a Strike here, because had I played GS I would've received the same constant harassment from my friend in his T1 Scout. Strike still would've struggled against the opposing team composition., but it would've fared better than a Scout.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FpSG4DNir8&list=PLv8g9Xq37S44Kh2wUYDU1ql6A61YFFZfZ&index=50&t=5s

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Today turned into a bit of a marathon, games 58 - 73. What a difference a day makes. 16 games played, 13 wins, 3 losses. One of those losses, game 72, was a back-fill at 999 for the opposing team. There is no video because I didn't even have time to start the recording before the game ended. Little bit annoyed with that one as it lost me 0.9 of a % on my win ratio, which has climbed after today, back up to 71.23% (would've been 72%+ without that back-fill) If I'd had a Gunship on my bar it almost certainly would've been 14 wins as one of the losses was a team that went bomber spam at Lost Shipyards TDM when they started to fall behind. A gunship would've cleared those bombers easy. And potentially would've been 15 wins as the other loss, also a Lost shipyards TDM, was tricky in a Scout. Despite being my team's top scorer and 2nd overall, I couldn't clear the bombers and Gunships quick enough to stop my team feeding. With a Gunship and centre map control I could have.

 

Today's games will upload over night, so here is the 138k damage game from yesterday, which was a new Personal Best for damage in a Scout.

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So its always an interesting thing to decide what to post up here, because I appreciate very few people are going to watch 100 (well, 99 now) games. It would be very easy to post any of the wins from yesterday's 13 game win streak. But, that would be self glorification, as I don't think that gets to the bottom of what this experiment is all about. The 138k damage game is an exception, because that's a lot of damage for a Scout, so its relevant. But the wins from yesterday I largely didn't have to work that hard for, and the ones I did have to work for, were well suited to a Scout's strengths. We all know what a Scout can do when its free to dance, so it proves nothing about the ship for me to post one of those matches. So, as I have several times already, I'm posting a loss that demonstrates the weaknesses of the ship.

 

This is a Lost Shipyards TDM. It starts out well. We get a comfortable lead, but then the other team go into a defensive formation, putting three bombers in the blue box and waiting for my team to feed them. A wise strategy, I guess, if you are lacking the skill to match the other team in sheer damage output. I end the game 10-5 with over 80k damage, and you can definitely see the point at which my flow is halted. Prior to them going bomber spam, and considering I still had double the damage of anyone else, I would say this was comfortably on course for a 100k+ 20kills+ solo carry. But the bomber spam, especially going inside the blue box, put the brakes on my performance. I tried to get in there and take them out, but it was just too heavy. Again, gunship would've been ideal to deal with this, and I am certain would've been a win. In retrospect I probably should've gone EMP Scout, but I don't know that it would have made enough difference.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ficWDRPc6_o&list=PLv8g9Xq37S44Kh2wUYDU1ql6A61YFFZfZ&index=71

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A mixed bag today. Games 74 - 90. Played on and off since the morning through to the evening. Taking breaks, coming back. 17 games played all in. 10 wins, 7 losses. Of those 7 losses only one of them was unsuitable for a Scout where I felt my match effectiveness was limited. The usual Bomber, GS wall combination that is a Scout's worse nightmare. This time I conceded the loss early on and tried to stay alive and take my opportunities when I could. The other 6 losses were fine for a Scout situationally speaking, but they were all brainless teams who were clearly in the belief that the nodes are surrounded by lava and that the way to win TDM's is to die a lot. In short, while today's wins vs losses was not good, all but one match was perfectly fine to fly a Scout in. The losses probably would've been loses whatever I flew, and Scout was still the best choice in some of them.

 

90 games played - win ratio down to 68.88. I know I started this with no win ratio target in mind or expected, but it became more and more apparent as I progressed that 70% was doable. So now, it has become the goal. A win is netting me about 0.3% at this stage. So of the ten games remaining I am going to need to win eight of them I think.

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100 games complete. This is a long post. I make no excuses for that. I think there was a lot of detail to cover here.

 

Well, what an entirely depressing end to this experiment. As I said, I never started out with a target win ratio in mind, its an experiment after all. But considering I was at 71.23% at game 73, it did become a goal to achieve 70% by 100 games. But, of the final 27 games I lost 14 of them, and of the final 10 - where I needed to win 8 to make 70%, I ended up losing 7 of them. Bringing the final 100 game win ratio to a depressing 65% dead.

 

I can't post screen shots because I have nowhere to store them for a link. But let's get into the stats anyway.

 

Overall win ratio aside, the whole point of this was, are Scout's viable in a range of matches? Are they any good in TDM? Or are they more of a Domination only ship, as the general consensus has always given them to be, since 5.5. I was always told Scouts are too easily peeled in TDM, and because you have to engage at very close range, you end up going too deep and getting into dangerous situations. The protorp meta also means you're going to eat a Protorp sooner or later. For the most part, I have always agreed with this assessment. But it's curious to see what the numbers show. So, I will deal with stats and figures first, and then talk about my personal feelings on it, which have changed since I did this experiment.

 

Overall stats.

Win ratio - 65%

Average kills per battle - 11.37

Average damage per battle - 58.9k

Kill / Death Ratio - 4.22

 

So overall win ratio of 65%. Straight away, that is not awful. So for sure its possible to say already that Scouts are working in a variety of situations. Especially when you consider a good number of those losses would have been losses regardless of what I flew. But lets get deeper.

 

Of 100 games played 45 were TDMs and 54 were Dominations, with 1 being a Domination back-fill which I joined at 999 to the other team, making 100 games. Of the TDMs I won 30 and lost 15. Giving me a TDM win ratio of 66.67%. Of the Dominations, I won 35 and lost 20 (including the back-fill), giving me a Domination win ratio of 64.81%.

 

It's tricky when going into detailed stats by game mode, such as average kills or average damage by TDM or Domination, because although I had ships dedicated to one mode, for example the Ocula was the TDM ship, built specifically for that mode, there were times it was flown in Domination when it got so stompy that it was the best ship to be in for survival. So all I can do really is give you the average stats from the ships in question, you just have to keep in mind that they were sometimes flown for cross purposes

 

TDM stats - Ocula used as Primary TDM ship.

Win ratio - 66.67%

Average kills - 11.37

Average Damage - 58k

Kill / Death Ratio - 4.78

 

DOM stats - Sting used as Primary DOM ship.

Win ratio - 64.81%

Average kills - 8.6k

Average Damage - 42.6k

Kill / Death Ratio - 4.00

 

So, getting into my interpretation of the numbers, and my personal feelings on what happened here and what it means for the viability of the class.....

 

The T1S Blackbolt turned out to be the ship I flew the least. It was brought into either TDM or DOM to deal with persistent bombers when I couldn't made my Sting or Ocula work. It flew only 12 games, and won 50%. Winning only 50% makes sense since those were all heavy bomber games, which is always tough for a Scout.

 

I also Tensored in 27 Dominations, and won 66.66% of those tensored games.So, tensoring works better than I gave it credit for I think. But not the way most people tensor. You need to be half smart with it and play the role properly. Which hardly anyone does.

 

Percentage wise, I won more TDMs than I did Dominations. However it was only 1.95% more, so not a lot. But the very fact that it was this close between the two game modes, straight away tells you that Scouts are not as bad in TDMs as we have always thought.

 

TDM also had higher kills per battle, and higher average damage, both of which can be attributed to not needing to kite on nodes, using DOs, and damage / kills being the whole objective TDM. Now admittedly, I play for Damage Overcharges, and I also had a dedicated Scout on the bar for TDM, which was built specifically for the role, to survive a Protorp, survive being slugged, and be able to heal up, but while still running a decent amount of evasion to feel like an evasion scout. This is not something you would normally do. If you only had one Scout on the bar, and it was built for Domination (max evasion, wingman, double turning) I would not fly it in TDMs. That is a much harder build to be effective in TDMs, and you are much more limited by the luck of the team balance and what type of ships people are flying. But the TDM build I used, that is a different kettle of fish. I flew in a wide variety of TDMs with that ship, and I can honestly say I feel as comfortable and confident in that ship as I do in a T1F (Starguard / Rycer) even when it gets heavy. Conventional wisdom has always said that a Strike can deal with those heavy situations easier, since it has fortified armor, more shields, more engines, and longer range weapons. But if you take a conventional evasion Scout, run single turning and regen thrusters (you don't need double turning in TDM) reinforced armor instead of lightweight (evasion) armor, and spanner for co-pilot but keep the rest standard evasion stuff, I think, genuinely, you are as hard if not harder to take down than a Strike, with comparable damage output. I would normally fly piledriver in that heavy situation, but this Scout build works. I also ran range capacitor and range option on Tier 5 of Targeting Telemetry, to give me a better chance against Strikes that want to joust you. Now I was trained by Invis to not joust people when playing Scout, or at least to avoid it as much as possible. And that is 100% how I fly in Domination. The chip damage is too fatal to a Scout. But with this TDM build, I joust. The reason being, in TDM you need to make kills fast. People are always willing to joust and looking for the rear kill shot can take too long and cause you to get peeled. Sure I still look for taking people out from behind, that is a major strength of this ship, but it can also joust. In fact, I think the only joust I lost was against a feedback Strike when I neglected to notice his feedback quick enough.

 

Conclusions

The right Scout, is fine in TDM. But why would you want to fly a Scout in TDM when you can fly a Strike? Well, that's a fair comment, but there are several good reasons. A typical build for TDM when it comes to Strikes is long range weapons. So that means the vast majority of Strikes you see are running Heavy lasers, Protons, EMP missiles, (Some run concussions) Quads, and Ion cannons. This TDM Scout build, compared to any of those typical Strike builds, will dance circles around them. If you are free to dog-fight them, they are going to lose. Simple as that. If you are being pressured and so can't dog-fight them or find an angle from behind because you're getting peeled, then time your cooldowns and go for the joust. You're not limited by the narrow arc of typical Strike weapons, so you can shoot at people from all sorts of weird and wonderful angles, rather than looking for that target that is more or less dead ahead of you.To me now, this equates to freedom, rather than restriction. I see someone, I shoot at them, rather than having to look for the ones within my usable arc and turning rate. With Disto you are much harder to land a missile on, people just straight give up trying to spam missiles at you. When you do on rare occasion eat one, you can heal up and live. Its a lot like flying Strike in that sense. Finally, it scares people, and you also draw less focus. When you tag someone with BLC shot, from an angle where they can't even see you it scares people. They bug out. They know they can't match what your Scout can do. People don't waste their time with you, which means less focus. They know you are super slippery, you have as much engines as a Strike, better turning, and a 2nd missile break. People recognize the name, and think, "I can't be bothered. I can't hit him, so I won't bother trying." All this equates to less focus. Don't get me wrong, if you blow someone up from behind at 1000m range with DO, it winds them up every bit as much as being slugged with DO from 150k. The difference is, most people will try to revenge kill a Gunship where as few will bother to come after a talented Scout, and those that do, can't beat you, unless you get ganked.

 

I personally will be flying Scouts a lot more in TDM now. I used to only do it occasionally. Now I am happy to start a lot more TDMs in Scout, and then switch it if get's unsuitable. Which definitely still happens. I wouldn't advise only having Scouts on the bar, its tough going at times, but no more than only having Gunships or only having Strikes is. In my humble opinion. You still need and should be adapting to what is happening in the match, and that means switching to the class of ship most likely to secure the win, or keep you alive if the win is not possible. But Scouts have a bigger usable window in this game than I gave them credit for, and are not as effected by the Strike Protorp meta as I used to believe. Since they are hands down the most fun class to fly, and with this overall positive experiment, I will be flying them more often.

Edited by Ttoilleekul
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This match is extremely relevant to my 100 Scout games experiment. So I decided put it here rather than in my video highlight thread. This is the same toon that I did the 100 Scout games with, but it now has a Strike and a Gunship on the bar, which I added after I completed the 100 games. The toon remains a Scout main, which means that wherever possible I will Scout. But this match really shows when a Gunship on the bar can win you the game. Its an Iokath, which starts well, with a comfortable lead. But then the opposing team close ranks, pull back and start working together. Which is exactly what you should do as a team when you're behind. Essentially, they make sure they aren't feeding easy kills to us. What results is that the scoreline closes up, and now they are serious contenders for the win. I end up under more pressure in a ship that needs to get very close to make kills. So I switch to the Gunship, and this is an ideal situation for the Gunship, because the other team are all sat back into their territory, working like a fishing net to catch anyone who comes too close. So as a Gunship, I am able to operate with virtually no pressure at all, and really put the game to bed. Nearer the end, one or two of them clock what is happening and come after me, but its over by this point. Too little too late.

 

Adapt to the game, win it.

 

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A point I was trying / hoping to make with this thread / experiment was that Scouts are more viable in TDM than generally given to believe. I feel it did that, given that the win ratios of TDM and Domination were so similar. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, once the experiment ended, and I put one Gunship and one Strike on the bar, 49 games later, the win ratio has come up from a disappointing 65% to a much more satisfactory 70%. The Gunship, has a 94.75% win ratio (a figure mirrored on other toons). The point, is that while Scouts are viable in TDM, Gunships rule the Death Match mode, and nothing will ever truly compete with them in that sense. IMHO.
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