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How does BioWare feel about GSF just being used by PVE players to farm conquest?


HaoZhao

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Ever look at the scoreboard at the end of a GSF match? 80% of players on both teams have zero kills and pretty much did nothing but die. There's one or two guys in each team who actually play and do things and the rest just go through the motions until the match ends and they get participation credit in the conquest window.

 

Some guildmate of mine mentioned the other day that does so well in conquest because he just plays every type of ship 5 times and it doesn't matter if he ever actually does anything in the match. Is this situation satisfactory to BioWare?

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+ I’m getting pops all the time

+ I’m completing galactic seasons objectives and conquest and renown and tech fragments, so my participation benefits the ground game for myself and my guild. I am helping my guild reach guild goal which benefits all of us.

+ Maybe some of these new players will actually stay and like it

+ I see less intentional (griefing) self-destructors

+ More players may prompt more developer attention to address outstanding GSF issues like the tutorial, arguably remote slicing, long standing bugs like the tier 4/5 component deselect and the missing companion passives on the hangar screen.

- I get a lot of unbalanced matches, but I’m not sure the ratio of good to bad is any different than before the conquest changes of 6.2 or whenever it was

 

So, my jury is still out. I see a lot of pluses in my list above. Degenerate play is all over the game in all sorts of areas, the question becomes what is the pressure to address it? When does degenerate play rise to the level of exploit? I’m not sure where that line is anymore, especially because I can’t imagine Bioware didn’t foresee, with Galactic Seasons, some players would be entering matches and contributing minimally just to get the objective cleared. I think they hoped for the best (some players might stay and try to get better) but prepared for the worst (there would be people just there to get the checkmark).

 

However, consider this. Remember that the ground pvp dailies and weeklies were changed to only count on wins. But the Galactic Seasons objectives only require a completed match. I suspect this is intended to compensate the players who felt they got the short end of the deal with that change to the daily and weekly. Some similar mentality may be at work here.

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I'm seeing bombers in games again, because now there's a reasonable chance that enough people won't know how to deal with them that they can be quite effective. I like seeing Hyperspace Beacons again.

 

I also wonder if the matchmaker works a bit better with a larger pool in the queue. I've been getting more close matches than I'm normally accustomed to.

 

Also seeing more people communicating and asking questions in ops chat in matches.

 

On the whole signs are mildly positive I think.

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There is honestly an influx of new players that accounts for the discrepancies in skill level. I’ve seen people actually trying in gsf matches. They just don’t get far because they don’t know how. As mentioned, there are a lot less self destructs and people just flying in circles. It’s more that the same experienced pilots (myself included) keep seeing the top of the leaderboards.
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They have succeeded in getting GSF to have as many as 8 simultaneous games. For that I applaud them. Even if you make participation win focused, that is to say it rewards wins (which I think it should) you cannot force people to learn the mode. That is up to the individual. In less than two weeks I am already seeing less stock ship bars, meaning in that short time many of these galactic season players are buying new ships and upgrading them. I've seen comments from people saying they are "beginning to get the hang of things", and others saying "trash game mode."

 

I personally thinks it's a good thing. I like not seeing the same names every match for two hours. Bioware wants participation in all the different aspect of Swtor. Galactic Seasons has brought activity to so many aspects of the game. They did a good job. Some people will learn to like it, others never will. We can't ask more than that.

 

If you have ever seen me play, and know the level I play at, know that I started playing GSF because of the Ossus Weekly Master work Data crystal event. I was playing before that, but casually. At the time Ossus dropped, is when I started playing hard. So a Dev participation incentive is directly responsible for making me both play GSF, and like it enough that I stuck around and got pretty good.

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In a typical 12 vs 12 match, I'd say there's maybe 2-3 people who just abuse the system and sit there. And like 6-8 people who are clearly new pilots busy trying their best.(low-ish overall damage+terrible accuracy) Great to see new players giving GSF a shot. Many seem to like it well enough.:) Edited by Stradlin
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Ever look at the scoreboard at the end of a GSF match? 80% of players on both teams have zero kills and pretty much did nothing but die.

 

There's one or two guys in each team who actually play and do things and the rest just go through the motions until the match ends and they get participation credit in the conquest window.

 

Not at all, I doubt you play GSF much and are just mad people are playing it and reaping the rewards.

 

Some guildmate of mine mentioned the other day that does so well in conquest because he just plays every type of ship 5 times and it doesn't matter if he ever actually does anything in the match. Is this situation satisfactory to BioWare?

 

That's only once per week per legacy, you can't "farm" GSF unless it's a specific conquest week (Clash in Hyperspace or Total Galactic War).

Edited by Eli_Porter
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I remember what it was like when it was really bad.

 

With seasons people realize its more long term and are more likely to care since its something they'll be doing regularly.

 

Yeah, there are definitely more 0 kill counts on the board - but there are also a lot more players that wouldn't touch gsf otherwise. I still haven't forgotten that when I started how desperate I was just to get a kill.

 

With so many players being exposed to GSF, we finally have a chance to see some real growth in the community as opposed to bleeding players year after year.

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Im finding that, many times, i will explain as best i can in the 1 minute to 30 seconds i have before a match and explain how this map, match type works

 

and, i have gotten good results

 

mind you not all the time, because, bad stuff will happen, regardless of what you say

 

but, if you start off with "This is how you win on this map/mode" and explain as easy as you can, the deal.

 

I mean, there was this time the other day, most of my team was 3 or 4 ships, and the other team were all five shippers.

 

Five shippers meaning, most likely more experienced, veterans because they have five ships on their bar.

 

I explained what DOM was, and how to win it.

 

Boom! we won 1000-650 or something

 

But, there i was thinking we were going to lose badly, and the team pulled it off

 

of course, giving direction during a match is good too, it helps alot

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I'm very wet behind the ears when it comes to GSF in spite being a hardened PvE player and a very experienced PvP player. Like innumerable others, I dipped my toes in GSF, withdrew in horror and frustration, and stayed away for years. Only to come back a few weeks before GS was unveiled, as coincidence would have it. I even made the mistake of going depth-first and maximizing my first ship using up most of the 25K Fleet Requisition. (I have since started a new character and unlocked the 12 ships first.)

 

I'm still dying more to bumping into stuff than to opponents, but only marginally more now. :-) Even got a kill the other day.

 

I might or might not eventually become decent at GSF. I might or might not play this game mode a lot. One thing I got to say: the GSF players must be drawn from a different pool of human beings than all other SWTOR players. It is a great community: kind, helpful, and generous with their knowledge and experience. Just the right mix to help ease new players into a challenging game mode.

 

I look forward to playing more GSF.

Edited by mike_carton
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Ever look at the scoreboard at the end of a GSF match? 80% of players on both teams have zero kills and pretty much did nothing but die. There's one or two guys in each team who actually play and do things and the rest just go through the motions until the match ends and they get participation credit in the conquest window.

 

Some guildmate of mine mentioned the other day that does so well in conquest because he just plays every type of ship 5 times and it doesn't matter if he ever actually does anything in the match. Is this situation satisfactory to BioWare?

 

I haven't seen anything like that, maybe one or two, but not 80% of both teams, . . . till today, but it wasn't both team's, just the one I was on, it was just me and one other trying to win, basically it was a 2v12,

 

since that was the case I did cycle through, each class once, one of those when in Rome things

but after the cycle, it was full on, "I will win this " "even if I have to do it alone":rak_05:, well I tried

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Ever look at the scoreboard at the end of a GSF match? 80% of players on both teams have zero kills and pretty much did nothing but die. There's one or two guys in each team who actually play and do things and the rest just go through the motions until the match ends and they get participation credit in the conquest window.

 

Some guildmate of mine mentioned the other day that does so well in conquest because he just plays every type of ship 5 times and it doesn't matter if he ever actually does anything in the match. Is this situation satisfactory to BioWare?

 

I wouldn't say 80% of players is very common, but maybe the bottom 33% of the scoreboard is full of zero kill or 1 kill w/6+ deaths nothing burgers.

 

Really for conquest and G seasons, I would like to see a minimum 1-2 medal requirement to get credit for a match and especially for flying each ship type in conquest.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Ever look at the scoreboard at the end of a GSF match? 80% of players on both teams have zero kills and pretty much did nothing but die. There's one or two guys in each team who actually play and do things and the rest just go through the motions until the match ends and they get participation credit in the conquest window.

 

Some guildmate of mine mentioned the other day that does so well in conquest because he just plays every type of ship 5 times and it doesn't matter if he ever actually does anything in the match. Is this situation satisfactory to BioWare?

 

lol ever come into a match where the other side has an 599pt lead and your side has 1pt? i did about a hour ago. 5 matches and 4 loses. 3 where our side had between 4pts - 100pts at the end of the matches.

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As one of the PVE players, I hate being forced to do GSF for conquest points. I don't like PVP, I don't PVP and I resent that Bioware is forcing players who want conquest points to PVP. You don't want me to farm points, GREAT. Tell Bioware to stop making the weekly points disgusting PVP matches.
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One thing I got to say: the GSF players must be drawn from a different pool of human beings than all other SWTOR players. It is a great community: kind, helpful, and generous with their knowledge and experience. Just the right mix to help ease new players into a challenging game mode.

 

I look forward to playing more GSF.

 

With some notable exceptions, GSF regulars / seasoned veterans are all extremely willing to help people get to grips with the game mode. I'm not certain why this is. Maybe its because GSF traditionally had a smaller player base than the rest of the content in the game. Maybe its because regular GSFers realize how hard the game is - it has that rare Swtor requirement of needing to aim. Maybe its because a lot of GSFers got sick of the toxicity in the other parts of Swtor, and ended up all sticking to GSF. Maybe its because GSF is the only part of the game that has a dedicated community who only play GSF and otherwise would not play Swtor. Or maybe its in part all of these. But yeah, I noticed the same thing when I started in GSF, and it was a big part of why I stuck around.

 

There is drama in GSF, there are rivalries and people dislike each other. I have lost it on occasion - exclusively with toxic people who over estimate their abilities, and the tedious claims of cheating, but, like a lot of others, I am super willing to help anyone progress. So if you need any help, just holla.

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As one of the PVE players, I hate being forced to do GSF for conquest points. I don't like PVP, I don't PVP and I resent that Bioware is forcing players who want conquest points to PVP. You don't want me to farm points, GREAT. Tell Bioware to stop making the weekly points disgusting PVP matches.

 

Meh, no different to PVP players being forced to do PVE. Me for example. Except I don't. Galactic Seasons doesn't mean enough to me for me to do the PVE objectives, so I don't bother with it. I am here for GSF, because that is what I enjoy. The choice to play is still yours, you're not being forced. You can't blame Bioware for wanting to encourage cross participation in all aspects of the game.

Edited by Ttoilleekul
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Ever look at the scoreboard at the end of a GSF match? 80% of players on both teams have zero kills and pretty much did nothing but die. There's one or two guys in each team who actually play and do things and the rest just go through the motions until the match ends and they get participation credit in the conquest window.

 

Some guildmate of mine mentioned the other day that does so well in conquest because he just plays every type of ship 5 times and it doesn't matter if he ever actually does anything in the match. Is this situation satisfactory to BioWare?

 

BW is kinda like the honey badger.

 

Honey Badger dont care

 

:)

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You just explained why all MMORPG pvp is dumpster garbage.

 

Just going to point out that in this thread, as far as skilled long time players go the ratio of ones happy to help, teach or group with a new player vs. ostensibly out to get them is 7:1 in the noob's favor. I say ostensibly for the one, because a lot of the players who as a matter of principle fly at 100% of their skill level no matter how bad they're stomping the other team are at the same time happy to group with noobs from that team, get into Discord with them, and help them out in the next match.

 

Skilled help is available and free, but you do have to ask for it.

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Just going to point out that in this thread, as far as skilled long time players go the ratio of ones happy to help, teach or group with a new player vs. ostensibly out to get them is 7:1 in the noob's favor. I say ostensibly for the one, because a lot of the players who as a matter of principle fly at 100% of their skill level no matter how bad they're stomping the other team are at the same time happy to group with noobs from that team, get into Discord with them, and help them out in the next match.

 

Skilled help is available and free, but you do have to ask for it.

 

I'm past the point where I will nerf myself to make it easier for people now. I had the hardest possible baptism of fire in this game. When I was a total green newbie, Neutrinos was regularly queuing, at the peak of his skill, and he owned the server daily. On the occasions he wasn't around, Kal Hondo was owning it. In the evenings there was a regular premade of reasonably skilled veterans. If learned to play through all of that, so can anyone else. But, as you say, I am more than happy to help people learn.

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Just going to point out that in this thread, as far as skilled long time players go the ratio of ones happy to help, teach or group with a new player vs. ostensibly out to get them is 7:1 in the noob's favor. I say ostensibly for the one, because a lot of the players who as a matter of principle fly at 100% of their skill level no matter how bad they're stomping the other team are at the same time happy to group with noobs from that team, get into Discord with them, and help them out in the next match.

 

Skilled help is available and free, but you do have to ask for it.

 

Social anxiety has entered the chat

 

I'm past the point where I will nerf myself to make it easier for people now. I had the hardest possible baptism of fire in this game. When I was a total green newbie, Neutrinos was regularly queuing, at the peak of his skill, and he owned the server daily. On the occasions he wasn't around, Kal Hondo was owning it. In the evenings there was a regular premade of reasonably skilled veterans. If learned to play through all of that, so can anyone else. But, as you say, I am more than happy to help people learn.

 

I learned that way and got gud, everyone else should too.

 

I'm going to also point out that hazing tends to run people off because reasonable people tend to see the lack of a point, but the people that get through it tend to be rabidly fanatical.

Edited by ALaggyGrunt
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I'm past the point where I will nerf myself to make it easier for people now. I had the hardest possible baptism of fire in this game. When I was a total green newbie, Neutrinos was regularly queuing, at the peak of his skill, and he owned the server daily. On the occasions he wasn't around, Kal Hondo was owning it. In the evenings there was a regular premade of reasonably skilled veterans. If learned to play through all of that, so can anyone else. But, as you say, I am more than happy to help people learn.

 

I had a similar experience 9 years ago in 8v8 ground pvp. The guys back then were so good that they ran circles around many of us. Just when I got good enough for ranked 8s, BioWare decided to pull it and replace it with Arena 4s (I’ll never forgive them for that).

Since then, I’ve only improved as the rest of the pvp population seemed to devolve and gets worse. There are no longer enough good players to grind my pvp axe on and make my skills any sharper unless I want to play arena (which I dislike) and I’m at a massive lag disadvantage playing from Australia.

I don’t hold back in ground pvp, I only got better by grinding against better players who would grind me into dust. I had to learn all my own abilities, to gear, min max, keybind and tactics and strategy against the best players the games ever had (I’m not even close to that lvl).

 

Ive just started playing GSF because of Galactic Seasons. I’d always disliked it because I wanted a true Xwing vs Tie Fighter sim clone. Since GS started forcing me to play GSF, I decided I should play properly and learn as much as I can. The learning curve experience is similar (but also harder) to my early pvp days. I’m slowly getting better. My best match was a death match last night where I got 5 kills, 12 assists, zero deaths and 24% aim (strike fighter on intro mission).

Im getting better each match and starting to enjoy GSF :)

 

I appreciate some players are like gods and if they weren’t, I wouldn’t be learning much. The GSF community seems much more welcoming and less toxic than the pvp community. It’s a breath of fresh air after playing pvp for 9 years.

But I would not be playing it if BioWare hadn’t made it part of GS and if it also wasn’t a good source of Conquest points.

I really hope BioWare don’t nerf conquest or add stupid win/medal requirements for GSF or I think it will turn new GSF players off the format. I certainly wouldn’t have stuck around if it was a requirement and I will probably stop playing if it becomes one.

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I learned that way and got gud, everyone else should too.

 

I'm going to also point out that hazing tends to run people off because reasonable people tend to see the lack of a point, but the people that get through it tend to be rabidly fanatical.

 

I think that’s an unfair assessment of Luc. He is here daily helping the community when they ask for help. If he were to pull his punches in matches to accommodate newbies like me, I would never get better.

 

There is a difference between playing against the best players who demolish you to the tricked out premade that finds the newest players and ganks them constantly so they have zero room to learn. You would be right in that sort of hazing had the opposite affect and drives people away. It’s why the normal ground pvp community has become so toxic. But things seem different in the GSF community. I’ve only come across one instance of the before mentioned toxic behaviour in GSF. Where as I come across it in nearly every ground pvp match.

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I had a similar experience 9 years ago in 8v8 ground pvp. The guys back then were so good that they ran circles around many of us. Just when I got good enough for ranked 8s, BioWare decided to pull it and replace it with Arena 4s (I’ll never forgive them for that).

Since then, I’ve only improved as the rest of the pvp population seemed to devolve and gets worse. There are no longer enough good players to grind my pvp axe on and make my skills any sharper unless I want to play arena (which I dislike) and I’m at a massive lag disadvantage playing from Australia.

I don’t hold back in ground pvp, I only got better by grinding against better players who would grind me into dust. I had to learn all my own abilities, to gear, min max, keybind and tactics and strategy against the best players the games ever had (I’m not even close to that lvl).

 

Ive just started playing GSF because of Galactic Seasons. I’d always disliked it because I wanted a true Xwing vs Tie Fighter sim clone. Since GS started forcing me to play GSF, I decided I should play properly and learn as much as I can. The learning curve experience is similar (but also harder) to my early pvp days. I’m slowly getting better. My best match was a death match last night where I got 5 kills, 12 assists, zero deaths and 24% aim (strike fighter on intro mission).

Im getting better each match and starting to enjoy GSF :)

 

I appreciate some players are like gods and if they weren’t, I wouldn’t be learning much. The GSF community seems much more welcoming and less toxic than the pvp community. It’s a breath of fresh air after playing pvp for 9 years.

But I would not be playing it if BioWare hadn’t made it part of GS and if it also wasn’t a good source of Conquest points.

I really hope BioWare don’t nerf conquest or add stupid win/medal requirements for GSF or I think it will turn new GSF players off the format. I certainly wouldn’t have stuck around if it was a requirement and I will probably stop playing if it becomes one.

 

You know we are not that different. Ground PVP was my thing. If you have the patience to read it, here is a little trip down memory lane of how I got into GSF. Unexpectedly.

 

I haven't been in Swtor as long as you. I started 4 years ago I think. Like everyone I did a bit of everything. Played through all the stories, got into operations with my guild, and did some PVP. I was never very good at PVP, and it was just something I did for mats and rewards, and the minimum of it. But I wanted to get better at it, it appealed to me more than Operations and Flashpoints. So I started randomly challenging people to duels on planets. The idea was to get experience against different classes without the mayhem that is a pvp match. One day I challenged a certain person on Tython, and that person kicked my butt. But he was nice, and talked to me. He helped me, and we dueled for the next few hours. From then on we became friends and he actively took me under his wing teaching me how to PVP. We sparred all the time, dueling with different classes and going into matches together. It would turn out, that this person was previously a student of the quite well known and very accomplished Ayan. I'm sure you will know of him given your PVP background? So in time I was also practicing with Ayan too, who was immense and extremely hard to beat. One day I was in a WZ and I would often ask if any healers wanted a tank. Tanking was my thing. Well, Skanking. Healers generally used to appreciate it. One day I was protecting a healer named Lun'i. She was the best healer I ever had the privilege to guard, and we narrowly won the match by holding off 8 of the enemy team on a node, just the two of us. From that day on we were inseparable. We trained together and queued together. She never wanted to queue without me, as its a rough time for healers in PVP. Over time Ayan saw my progress invited me to Ragtag band, along with Lun'i. I progressed as a tank and started doing ranked with them. First season I got bronze, nothing amazing, but a solid first season. Before we got into the second season some issues went down between myself and Lun'i. A misunderstanding about our team and it caused some bad blood. We resolved it and made peace, but things weren't quite the same after that. It dampened my enthusiasm for ground PVP a little, as I no longer had my beloved healer to pair with. I started pairing more with the other healers in Ragtag, and they all approved of my skanking. But Lun'i was now doing ranked with another skank. I was a little hurt, but retrospectively I hold nothing against her. I was also not doing ranked anymore, as I had no fixed team. It felt a little odd being in Ragtag Band and not doing ranked, beyond a few matches here and there. Then 5.10 came, and we had to do GSF to get a Masterwork Crystal. So, much like you, I started doing GSF for motives other than the love of GSF. My motivation was purely to get a crystal to gear for ground PVP. But, I noticed very quickly that GSF was not toxic like ground pvp. People were helpful, willing to teach. People didn't trash talk their team in every match. They said hello to each other and congratulated each other on games well played. What is this madness I thought? It was infectious and it made me want to start learning. I thought if I am going to be playing this game to gear up, I might as well learn how to do it rather than just be carried or squished. So, like you, with ground PVP still being my main thing, I started putting effort into GSF and asking questions. Exactly like you are now. I don't know when exactly it happened, but a point arrived where I realized I was having more fun in GSF than I was in ground PVP. And the thing that really swung it for me was that I realized one strong top level player could carry a match on his own, which you can't do in ground PVP. This wasn't me at the time, I was far from a top player, but I saw others doing it a lot. I realized that GSF is more skill rewarding than ground PVP. Skill makes the biggest difference here, where as in ground PVP its more about which team ganks the others best. One player can take on 5/6 people in GSF and win. You can't do that in ground PVP (Unless you happen to be a slippery Operative). And slowly, I started playing less and less ground pvp and more and more GSF. Eventually, I left Ragtag band, and gave up on ground PVP altogether, with zero regrets. At that point I put my full focus in GSF, with the goal of emulating what I had seen from some of the best players to ever play this mode.

 

Regarding Bioware changing the incentives / rewards for playing GSF - I don't think they will. Right now GSF is as healthy as ever population wise. Their goal was to get more people playing it, which they have achieved. If its not broken, no need to fix it. Also they have a track record of leaving GSF alone, when compared to PVE and especially PVP. It has very few updates by comparison. Which is in large part why it has good class balance (which was another reason I stuck around).

Edited by Ttoilleekul
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