I think that what's been happening the last 5 years or so is that MMOs have gone from a focus on challenging content to a focus on casual content, because the stable part of the player base has shifted as well.

 

The old crowd that grew up with MMOs is losing out to the new crowd and you see it in every MMO but I don't think that it's a trend that you can stop no matter how much you want to. People just wanna hang in a virtual world and those people are casual players. There is of course a part of the population that wants challenging content and that's why they still create ops.

 

I will look at that new ops though because I wonder how successful the last two have really been and we might see a change in approach to it.

 

I'm sure I've fought for harder content over the years, but I think I have to acknowledge that those days are over. Even if an MMO has more challenging content it won't be a focus anymore. So you either get with the times or you leave. So this change is much in line with that...however, it doesn't make the need for new content any less and that's what I'm missing in 7.0 again and when we do get new content it's very one-sided. FPs seem to be the main focus for that...but there are so many already. I really wish they would bring out new locations that are in the persistent world and make them bigger than Onderon and Mek-sha for example and make them so there is more to do than some weird-*** dailies and a story line that you can play through in 5 mins (an exaggeration but you know what I mean).

I'd say the harder content died off long ago. "Welcome to our all new super hard core MMO!" *watches it fail* "We didn't have enough players for it!"

I'd say the harder content died off long ago. "Welcome to our all new super hard core MMO!" *watches it fail* "We didn't have enough players for it!"

Well NiM Ops I would say are still hard content and we're still getting those so it hasn't died off completely.

And the reason for the failure at launch didn't have a lot to do with the hardcoreness (is that a word lol) of the game. It had more to do with bugs, lack of things to do at 50, PvP being very laggy especially OW PvP, and a lack of QoL items that should've been in the game at launch. I'm sure that the leveling experience was too hard for some, but you have to realize that those were different times still.

I do think that with 4.0 they sent a message to the raiders of "you're not our target audience anymore" and that sent a lot of raiders away from the game. So in that sense it was a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. They aimed at the story lovers and that failed miserably as well. I mean 4.0, after having had the exodus of many raiders, got a boost in numbers because of what it promised to be. But they didn't deliver a convincing setting and story for a lot of people and couldn't keep up with their monthly schedule of releasing episodes. So a lot of people left again.

So really it makes sense that only the staunchest fans and casual players make up the vast majority of the player base. BW made sure of that. So now we just get small expansions with an Ops, a short story and an FP...which is part of the story. Nothing in this new set up with combat styles changes that.

Well NiM Ops I would say are still hard content and we're still getting those so it hasn't died off completely.

 

And the reason for the failure at launch didn't have a lot to do with the hardcoreness (is that a word lol) of the game. It had more to do with bugs, lack of things to do at 50, PvP being very laggy especially OW PvP, and a lack of QoL items that should've been in the game at launch. I'm sure that the leveling experience was too hard for some, but you have to realize that those were different times still.

 

I do think that with 4.0 they sent a message to the raiders of "you're not our target audience anymore" and that sent a lot of raiders away from the game. So in that sense it was a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. They aimed at the story lovers and that failed miserably as well. I mean 4.0, after having had the exodus of many raiders, got a boost in numbers because of what it promised to be. But they didn't deliver a convincing setting and story for a lot of people and couldn't keep up with their monthly schedule of releasing episodes. So a lot of people left again.

 

So really it makes sense that only the staunchest fans and casual players make up the vast majority of the player base. BW made sure of that. So now we just get small expansions with an Ops, a short story and an FP...which is part of the story. Nothing in this new set up with combat styles changes that.

I was thinking of other MMOs as well. Look at the failed WildStar MMO. I loved the combat of it. I loved the look of it. I knew it wasn't going to last. Not even for the bugs (I recall some bug that made getting into raiding difficult), but for the need to be part of a hardcore group to even get into raids (most players can't do that from what I've seen) and the lack of things for casual players to chase after.

Want that cool look? Gotta raid! Raid raid raid. When the majority of a player base, isn't there anymore, in my experience anyways. At least, it seems that way with the western player base.

Appealing to casuals doesn't have to mean dumber content. Casuals and ageing (more responsible i.e. time poor) old-skool players will still love challenging content i.e. tricky rather than laborious.

Problem we have is that game designers seem to think that forcing us to spend hours getting through an Op is what counts as challenging, and the only way they can guarantee that is by making the monsters hard to kill because they have so many hit points and invulnerabilities.

They could try:

More puzzles and clearances, with teams split up.

A campaign of FPs/Group content with repercussions carrying forward from decisions made or content skipped. That would allow teams to progress through a sequence of steps that might only need less than an hr per instance. The end of the campaign resulting in a particular cache of rewards being unlocked depending on what was skipped. You could say the same legacies would need to take part but allow different toons in each instance.

"End-game" doesn't have to be many people spending hours together without interruption, this does not respect players' changing lifestyles and short term commitments.

I think that what's been happening the last 5 years or so is that MMOs have gone from a focus on challenging content to a focus on casual content, because the stable part of the player base has shifted as well.

A) Final Fantasy 14 just became the most currently successful MMO.

B) WoW vets say its hardest content is just as hard as WoW's ever was.

Debunked.

A) Final Fantasy 14 just became the most currently successful MMO.

 

B) WoW vets say its hardest content is just as hard as WoW's ever was.

 

Debunked.

It’s also continuing to grow in size and they fund it via players buying the game and the subscription model.

There is no free to play or preferred. They don’t rely on cash shop monetisation to make the game or keep the lights on.

According to reports, they also have the least toxic community compared to WoW and other MMOs.

If Bioware wants to copy a successful MMO game, they should be looking at FFXIV.

Final Fantasy 14 just became the most currently successful MMO.

So is that game really for hardcore players or does it have a ton of content for casuals as well? From what I can tell it does have a lot of content for casuals.

WoW vets say its hardest content is just as hard as WoW's ever was.

But has WoW gone in a more casual direction? Yes, they have.

My point wasn't that MMOs don't have hard content anymore but there's a ton of content that appeals to casual players, so the focus has changed...so no, not debunked.

So is that game really for hardcore players or does it have a ton of content for casuals as well? From what I can tell it does have a lot of content for casuals.

 

But has WoW gone in a more casual direction? Yes, they have.

 

My point wasn't that MMOs don't have hard content anymore but there's a ton of content that appeals to casual players, so the focus has changed...so no, not debunked.

You don't have to be hardcore for FFXIV. I didn't find it that toxic, but that isn't to say you won't run into toxic people. I was always able to get into dungeons/raids, almost always with people willing to tell new people what to do as they go (still a good idea to do a little quick run through on a guide imo tho).

So is that game really for hardcore players or does it have a ton of content for casuals as well? From what I can tell it does have a lot of content for casuals.

 

But has WoW gone in a more casual direction? Yes, they have.

 

My point wasn't that MMOs don't have hard content anymore but there's a ton of content that appeals to casual players, so the focus has changed...so no, not debunked.

I have said in the past (and will continue to maintain) that in ever instance possible multiple levels of difficulties could and should be made available. This (if done and rewarded correctly) would reach a larger audience and establish a broader base of paying customers.

However, with less and less actual NEW content .. and substituting newer ways to replay old stuff being the current objective with only a smaller proportion being devoted to actual NEW content ... I have to concede that it's obvious at this point in time that "growing" SWTOR does not seem to be a primary concern at this time.

So .. What does (re)playing a "class" story using a "non-class" combat style mean to me ????

It’s also continuing to grow in size and they fund it via players buying the game and the subscription model.

 

There is no free to play or preferred. They don’t rely on cash shop monetisation to make the game or keep the lights on.

 

According to reports, they also have the least toxic community compared to WoW and other MMOs.

 

If Bioware wants to copy a successful MMO game, they should be looking at FFXIV.

From a business model stand point .. perhaps !!

From a game design point of view ... That needs to be their own. If the team would simply pay attention to the things that have worked (class stories .. companions .. strongholds ... etc) .. and the things that are creating division ( current proposed focus of resources ) AND BUGS .. oh well.

I've already said more than some might want to hear ! I wonder if we could smuggle the "matrix" needed past the blockade ?

So is that game really for hardcore players or does it have a ton of content for casuals as well? From what I can tell it does have a lot of content for casuals.

 

But has WoW gone in a more casual direction? Yes, they have.

 

My point wasn't that MMOs don't have hard content anymore but there's a ton of content that appeals to casual players, so the focus has changed...so no, not debunked.

My husband has been playing FFXIV and finds it to be very casual friendly. He wouldn't be playing it otherwise.

From a business model stand point .. perhaps !!

 

From a game design point of view ... That needs to be their own. If the team would simply pay attention to the things that have worked (class stories .. companions .. strongholds ... etc) .. and the things that are creating division ( current proposed focus of resources ) AND BUGS .. oh well.

 

I've already said more than some might want to hear ! I wonder if we could smuggle the "matrix" needed past the blockade ?

 

The biggest issue with this is the current BioWare team don’t know the history of their own game. That’s why they keep repeating the same mistakes that didn’t work in the past or they try and reinvent the wheel instead of looking at what has worked in the past.

I’ve referred to this point before. Back in the 3.x era the Devs made a big point how the pvp community was the most stable subscriber player base in the game. Ie they stayed subscribed between new content because they were mostly satisfied with the pvp eco system.

* Then instead of listening to said player base regarding pvp systems, they completely changed the base systems in 5.0 that kept the pvp community subscribed.

* They did away with pvp gear, they got rid of pvp comms, which destroyed the incentive to level up in pvp, which led to degraded skills.

* They made it so pvpers had to gear up playing pve instead of pvp. That was the last straw for a large portion of the community who up and left. My whole pvp guild of 50 members quit with in 3 months of 5.0 launching.

* Since then, BioWare have kept making one bad decision after another with pvp and continued to drive more players away and turn new players off.

* When they should have been listening to the feed back of why pvpers were leaving or unhappy. They should have looked back at the 3.x systems to understand why pvpers were the most stable subscribers in the game.

* But instead, BioWare have doubled down on every bad decision and totally ignore the feed back of the players. The arrogance and hubris of the Devs making these decisions on what players “want” is astounding, because it’s often the complete opposite of the feedback.

And how many times will you replay that story with a different combat style?

How much mileage is in this, especially if you've already played all the stories with any number of toons, each with their own headcanon?

Means I can finally do stories for boring classes without getting bored.

The biggest issue with this is the current BioWare team don’t know the history of their own game. That’s why they keep repeating the same mistakes that didn’t work in the past or they try and reinvent the wheel instead of looking at what has worked in the past.

 

I’ve referred to this point before. Back in the 3.x era the Devs made a big point how the pvp community was the most stable subscriber player base in the game. Ie they stayed subscribed between new content because they were mostly satisfied with the pvp eco system.

 

* Then instead of listening to said player base regarding pvp systems, they completely changed the base systems in 5.0 that kept the pvp community subscribed.

 

* They did away with pvp gear, they got rid of pvp comms, which destroyed the incentive to level up in pvp, which led to degraded skills.

 

* They made it so pvpers had to gear up playing pve instead of pvp. That was the last straw for a large portion of the community who up and left. My whole pvp guild of 50 members quit with in 3 months of 5.0 launching.

 

* Since then, BioWare have kept making one bad decision after another with pvp and continued to drive more players away and turn new players off.

 

* When they should have been listening to the feed back of why pvpers were leaving or unhappy. They should have looked back at the 3.x systems to understand why pvpers were the most stable subscribers in the game.

 

* But instead, BioWare have doubled down on every bad decision and totally ignore the feed back of the players. The arrogance and hubris of the Devs making these decisions on what players “want” is astounding, because it’s often the complete opposite of the feedback.

Respectfully: The team is quite intelligent and knows exactly what they are doing and why. They have demonstrated their capabilities. They are competent. The proper application of knowledge is wisdom. In following the wisdom gained from years of experience there is also discernment. Perhaps a better review of those words might help to shed some light on this subject.

In short we are not seeing the "larger picture". IMO this is why I have concluded that their objectives and insights are the same as they once were. Something has fundamentally changed. I do not pretend for one moment to know what that change was or currently is. All I can see (for the time being) are results (or perhaps better described as ) side affects of what we HAVE.

Respectfully: The team is quite intelligent and knows exactly what they are doing and why. They have demonstrated their capabilities. They are competent. The proper application of knowledge is wisdom. In following the wisdom gained from years of experience there is also discernment. Perhaps a better review of those words might help to shed some light on this subject.

 

In short we are not seeing the "larger picture". IMO this is why I have concluded that their objectives and insights are the same as they once were. Something has fundamentally changed. I do not pretend for one moment to know what that change was or currently is. All I can see (for the time being) are results (or perhaps better described as ) side affects of what we HAVE.

I didn’t actually say they weren’t intelligent, I know they are. I inferred they were arrogant in their decision making by ignoring the past and player feed back. And not knowing the history of the game because they weren’t playing it or not working on the game isn’t to say they aren’t intelligent. It’s more of an oversight of individual devs because the company has collectively and selectively forgotten.

I wish I had your confidence that something has changed. But after literal years of them proving the opposite of what you’re saying, I really can’t give them the benefit of doubt any more. Fool me once, shame on them, fool me twice shame on me. And sadly I’m full of shame for letting them fool me too many times. They will need to prove it this time cause I’ve been burnt too many times.

I have light-aligned, saboteur Sith Juggernaut and Sith Sorcerer characters. They're already through the story. My legacy has already unlocked Light V and Dark V, as I've been playing since launch, so I will likely make use of the combat style feature to choose Jedi Knight disciplines and Jedi Consular disciplines, respectively, for those Sith characters. But strictly speaking that's not an answer to the OP's question, as those characters are already played. Because its the conversations and the cinematics, with scripted animations, that make the story, I know I won't really be seeing light powers in a Sith Inquisitor or Sith Warrior story, at least the cutscenes anyway. I never really expected the Devs would go back and change all that in the vanilla story, it seems like too much work. But I do hope its taken into account in the story moving forward.

But, I really can't see changing the combat styles much on my tech characters ... they exist for the group roles they provide, and to mirror their opposite faction counterparts. So since combat styles are really just advanced classes, and not a weapon outfit designer, its not really necessary for me to swap combat styles. I don't have any evil Jedi so I won't be swapping their combat styles much either.

I can't see a BH sporting an assault cannon, but I could see them using rifles like a Vanguard, rifles and a cloaking generator like an Operative, or a sniper rifle. I could also see them using a melee non-Force combat style, if the devs were to ever add one. If I made another BH or started on another server, maybe I would choose VG, Op, or Sniper combat styles. I don't really see the leader of a special forces squad using a cloaking generator per se. A Cassian Andor-type character is hard to fit into the Trooper story, but I guess someone could make it work. I don't like the idea of using smuggler abilities as a trooper ... Illegal mods, Dirty Kick, these are abilities named because of the class they were designed for. So, I really can't see myself using Scoundrel or Gunslinger combat styles as a Trooper leveling up. But Merc, PT, Sniper would work for the Trooper story so its at least feasible I could make use of this feature if I make a new tech character.

I don't really envision a Smuggler using jetpack and flamethrower based abilities like a BH, or an assault cannon, though a Smuggler who really bonds with Akaavi might learn the way of the Rising Phoenix. I would have to swap later in the story to match with her joining the Smuggler's crew. Flamethrowers, jetpacks, and assault cannons are a bit of a stretch for an Agent, too. But an Agent could definitely make use of the melee non-Force combat style I mentioned above. I could easily envision a Teras-Kasi-trained Agent. That would totally be worth doing the story again for me.

I've played the jedi stories quite a few times now. I don't think the JK story would play any differently using previously Consular-associated combat styles. And I just don't really have a lot of interest in playing a dark jedi, but for the people that do, I'm glad they have this system.

The real gem of the 7.0 changes is that it opens the door for entirely new combat styles to be created and added to the game in the future. Ever since launch when we were given the finalized 8 classes, there have been tons of players asking for new and additional classes to fill gaps that exist within the current lineup, like a force user that wields blasters or a tech brawler that uses vibroswords or electrostaves. Some of our companions and many of the enemies and npcs in the game use these combinations, but it's never been available to the player.

The primary barrier to adding new classes has always been the work load and expense. In the past, a new class meant two new classes (republic and empire), each mirroring each other and each with a massive amount of voice acting and personal story missions, which the base game was never designed for. Now, with origin story being separate from combat style, bioware can add new combat styles at their leisure with no need to make a mirror for the other faction (just make the style available to both) and no need to create an entirely new and completely voice acted story campaign.

The implications of that are massive for the future of the game.

The real gem of the 7.0 changes is that it opens the door for entirely new combat styles to be created and added to the game in the future. Ever since launch when we were given the finalized 8 classes, there have been tons of players asking for new and additional classes to fill gaps that exist within the current lineup, like a force user that wields blasters or a tech brawler that uses vibroswords or electrostaves. Some of our companions and many of the enemies and npcs in the game use these combinations, but it's never been available to the player.

 

The primary barrier to adding new classes has always been the work load and expense. In the past, a new class meant two new classes (republic and empire), each mirroring each other and each with a massive amount of voice acting and personal story missions, which the base game was never designed for. Now, with origin story being separate from combat style, bioware can add new combat styles at their leisure with no need to make a mirror for the other faction (just make the style available to both) and no need to create an entirely new and completely voice acted story campaign.

 

The implications of that are massive for the future of the game.

I can follow you're reasoning but it will still come down for me to having more ways to play the exact same content. The main issue I have with this change is that it creates ridiculous situations that are against SW lore - you know like a light side jedi using dark side powers publicly and nobody sees or notices that.

But the overarching concern I have is that they still don't bring out a lot of new content. If they did I would be more excited about the prospects of this, but as it stands ... just different ways to play the exact same content, which hasn't grown a lot and what was added new has either failed or is not sufficient.

Now I do recognise that "failed" can be subjective but objectively when not a lot of people do it, then it hasn't worked. So regardless of how much you like or hate KotFE/ET for example, the reality is that not enough people cared for it and BW couldn't keep up with their own promise of a chapter per month. So that experiment has failed. Iokath is another example of something that failed. I don't see many people doing Onderon or Mek-sha dailies nor do I see many people play Uprisings, etc.

So 7.0 will add some story that you'll probably be able to finish in one hour or less, one FP and one Ops. That's not even worthy of the name "expansion". And in the end when you've played all advanced classes for many years, this is not that big of a deal.

But I'm glad you're excited about it and I do mean that.

I can follow you're reasoning but it will still come down for me to having more ways to play the exact same content. The main issue I have with this change is that it creates ridiculous situations that are against SW lore - you know like a light side jedi using dark side powers publicly and nobody sees or notices that.

 

But the overarching concern I have is that they still don't bring out a lot of new content. If they did I would be more excited about the prospects of this, but as it stands ... just different ways to play the exact same content, which hasn't grown a lot and what was added new has either failed or is not sufficient.

 

Now I do recognise that "failed" can be subjective but objectively when not a lot of people do it, then it hasn't worked. So regardless of how much you like or hate KotFE/ET for example, the reality is that not enough people cared for it and BW couldn't keep up with their own promise of a chapter per month. So that experiment has failed. Iokath is another example of something that failed. I don't see many people doing Onderon or Mek-sha dailies nor do I see many people play Uprisings, etc.

 

So 7.0 will add some story that you'll probably be able to finish in one hour or less, one FP and one Ops. That's not even worthy of the name "expansion". And in the end when you've played all advanced classes for many years, this is not that big of a deal.

 

But I'm glad you're excited about it and I do mean that.

I feel the Juggernaut can be used without anything to overt on the Dark Side, side of things. It doesn't use lightning after all.

However, for the lightning, that really goes to one's personal story to be fair, or their lack of caring about it. By KotET it likely doesn't matter. At end of Knight they go "You're to dark and we can't ignore it anymore"

But all in all, what others do, really has no involvement in your own story. So, it won't matter really.

I was referring to the way the cutscenes are currently set up. The Trooper & Agent cutscenes have some kind of pathing in place to use those cutscene specific blaster models they use however you might be right given that all 4 tech classes use the same blaster animations in cutscenes so maybe it will be whatever you currently have equipped, ie dynamic, vs a place holder if you're using a Combat Style that doesn't use pistols.

I just checked with one of the starter quests on Hutta for the Bounty Hunter where you have the option to shoot a guy to send his kid to Korriban.

I unequipped both my blasters and triggered the cutscene, and it reverted to a default blaster.

So it's safe to say that every tech class has a default blaster and I think that it just checks for if a blaster is equipped or not.