I spent my precious money just to write this (and it's expensive where I live), even though I don't play now.

I thought a lot how to write, but I'll make it really short. It is my one attempt to save the game.

Game by definition is something that offers challenge, and you get pleasure from overcoming it.

It is not true to say SWTOR is a game any longer. There is no challenge.

Once you hit lev 10 and get companion, you can just stand and applause as it kills everything. You never die.

Beside obvious drawbacks like:

-you don't need consumables

-you don't need to group

-you don't need gear

there is also another drawback:

Global player base is composed of many types: roleplayers, players interested in story, explorers etc, but majority of that base represent "gamers". Gamers seek challenge, just like most people do when playing any game.

SWTOR fails to keep those because once they start the game and get companion game becomes just slaughter without any challenge and they get bored to death, and leave the game.

Whatever benefit SWTOR got from appearing on Steam in now dissipating because simply it can't keep players in game. Those who remain are veterans, loyal, people interested in story and other things. But those slowly and naturally will lower while there is no source of new players.

That's why game will die.

It maybe already too late. Developers however focus on wrong things: they try to keep players by making everything easier, like double exp (like we don't outlevel areas normally) and you can guess it only has reverse effect.

If you want game to survive you have to make it challenging again, for common gamer, like game supposed to be, or face reality of slow death.

Game by definition is something that offers challenge, and you get pleasure from overcoming it.

[citation needed]

Who defines what people get pleasure from?

It is not true to say SWTOR is a game any longer. There is no challenge.

This line presupposes the truth of the first line, which you haven't in any way established.

Once you hit lev 10 and get companion, you can just stand and applause as it kills everything. You never die.

Beside obvious drawbacks like:

-you don't need consumables

-you don't need to group

-you don't need gear

Try playing harder parts of the game, then. Try doing those things in the Section X Heroic 4 mission area. It won't go quite as well. Try playing group content.

there is also another drawback:

Global player base is composed of many types: roleplayers, players interested in story, explorers etc, but majority of that base represent "gamers". Gamers seek challenge, just like most people do when playing any game.

You're coming back to that "seeking challenge" thing, which you haven't proven. What about people who play games to have fun?

This crops up every now and then. Yes, the game is not hard or very difficult, but that's the way it is with level synch.

The game was harder at launch, and it gave a good challenge to be sure, but it never went into impossible levels.

Sadly, those days are long gone, but it is what it is.

If you want a hard SW game, why not give Jedi: Fallen Order a go? It sure is challenging, particularly at the harder levels.

I have a couple of points here for you OP.

1) Not all people want challenge when it concerns Leveling in an MMO. The point to leveling is to get to max level and do endgame content which is where the challenge can be found if a player is looking for that (not everyone wants challenge in games regardless so your mistaken on that). I love easy leveling.

2) If I want challenge I'll go do Group content. Master Mode Flashpoints, Veteran Operations, and Master Mode Operations. These types of content are specifically made for those that want challenge.

3) Your claim that everyone wants Challenge in a game is flawed. How many people in this game do only Story content or the easier MM FP's, and SM Operations, but will never set foot in a Veteran or Master Mode Operation? How many stick to Role playing or playing the GTN, but never set foot in FP's, PvP, GSF, Vet or MM Ops? These types of players are exist.

4) If gamers want challenges then why are so many on the PTS complaining about the loss of Abilities? The loss of DCD's will make the game more challenging however people clearly don't want that.

Let's see...

tl;dr: "I expect everyone to play my way and game developers to cater to what I want because I am a One True Wayist, anything that doesn't follow my One True Way will die a slow death because obviously no one else and their Way matters."

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone say that an online game was dying, usually only because they themselves weren't happy with the direction the game developers were taking, I wouldn't need to make house payments.

I have a couple of points here for you OP.

 

 

1) Not all people want challenge when it concerns Leveling in an MMO. The point to leveling is to get to max level and do endgame content which is where the challenge can be found if a player is looking for that (not everyone wants challenge in games regardless so your mistaken on that). I love easy leveling.

 

2) If I want challenge I'll go do Group content. Master Mode Flashpoints, Veteran Operations, and Master Mode Operations. These types of content are specifically made for those that want challenge.

 

3) Your claim that everyone wants Challenge in a game is flawed. How many people in this game do only Story content or the easier MM FP's, and SM Operations, but will never set foot in a Veteran or Master Mode Operation? How many stick to Role playing or playing the GTN, but never set foot in FP's, PvP, GSF, Vet or MM Ops? These types of players are exist.

 

4) If gamers want challenges then why are so many on the PTS complaining about the loss of Abilities? The loss of DCD's will make the game more challenging however people clearly don't want that.

1. Yes I mentioned that not everyone id for challenge. But most people do, thats what you expect when you play a game, even chess. It is true endgame and flashpoint offer challenge, but the problem is people will leave before that.

2. Yes, but for new player missions and planets is what they experience.

3. I didn't claim that everyone wants challenge. Please read carefully next time. I said there different kinds of people in player base. I was talking of majority.

4. Less abilities make game easier, less challenging.

At some point trend appeared in MMO games to make everything simplier, generalized and easy. SWTOR followed that trend. It was a mistake. All these games suffer popularity and population loss now while new MMO that offer challenge again are prospering.

You want a challenge? Solo heroic missions. It's not easy when you're not a legendary player. Or do chapters in master mode. Join a guild and run master mode ops. There are options for people who want a challenge that don't involve making the game harder for everyone.

I play for the story. I have no desire to spend twice as long leveling a new character just because someone thinks that it's too easy.

The topic comes up quite a bit and it baffles me - I've NEVER seen a MMORPG that had a challenging leveling process.

Once you hit lev 10 and get companion, you can just stand and applause as it kills everything. You never die.

You realize that running with a healer companion is YOUR choice.

If the companion makes things too easy for you then simply toggle them from 'active' to 'passive'. At the very least change their role from heals to dps.

That way you can have a little more challenge, without messing things up for players who like the current challenge level.

Other ways to get a bit more challenge while levelling are to not overlevel planets, do the heroics (with either a passive or dps companion, NOT heals), and do veteran flashpoints*

*once you reach max level pretty much all of the veteran flashpoints can be solo'd if you want to test yourself and not just run with a group.

Gamers seek challenge

I'll hazard you haven't even begun to try anything challenging in this game. As mentioned by others, get in a mastermode ops in any role, in any class, then come back on this forum and tell us everything's so freaking easy.

I stick to story mode ops because I'm not the best player. I've some outstanding and fiendishly adept players in my guild, parsing all kinds of amazing numbers, and that crowd still wipes occasionally in mastermode.

You sampled the pudding without trying the pie.

Game by definition is something that offers challenge, and you get pleasure from overcoming it.

It is not true to say SWTOR is a game any longer. There is no challenge.

Once you hit lev 10 and get companion, you can just stand and applause as it kills everything. You never die.

Beside obvious drawbacks like:

-you don't need consumables

-you don't need to group

-you don't need gear

 

there is also another drawback:

Global player base is composed of many types: roleplayers, players interested in story, explorers etc, but majority of that base represent "gamers". Gamers seek challenge, just like most people do when playing any game.

SWTOR fails to keep those because once they start the game and get companion game becomes just slaughter without any challenge and they get bored to death, and leave the game.

 

Whatever benefit SWTOR got from appearing on Steam in now dissipating because simply it can't keep players in game. Those who remain are veterans, loyal, people interested in story and other things. But those slowly and naturally will lower while there is no source of new players.

That's why game will die.

 

It maybe already too late. Developers however focus on wrong things: they try to keep players by making everything easier, like double exp (like we don't outlevel areas normally) and you can guess it only has reverse effect.

 

If you want game to survive you have to make it challenging again, for common gamer, like game supposed to be, or face reality of slow death.

Agree with everything you said, except maybe the "subbing just to post this" part. Seems a bit far-fetched. Maybe you subbed for the free content and sub-benefits. Everyone should sub at least once, imo.

Once upon a time -- like 8 years ago -- I used to craft myself purple gear while leveling. And I'd actually get excited if a purple piece of loot dropped from a random mob. Since 4.0, I won't waste my time with purple artifact gear until endgame. Current bolster "algorithm" (aka level sync) is in dire need of repair. Game too easy.

I keep posting this video whenever I read a topic like this. This is me undergeared, with a level 1 companion, at level 23 on a level 40 planet (Hoth).

When people faceroll their way through the storylines, they can't figure out why they're trash at endgame content. So they give up, and just keep playing the base stories over and over. They have no incentive to git gud, nor get gear, because it's simply not necessary for the base game.

When people faceroll their way through the storylines, they can't figure out why they're trash at endgame content. So they give up, and just keep playing the base stories over and over. They have no incentive to git gud, nor get gear, because it's simply not necessary for the base game.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that. The storyline content is not designed to be a training ground for endgame content. Its to enjoy the story. If players only want to do the easiest content in game I agree incentive is not there to improve. However for those that wish a challenge there IS certainly a progression for endgame content outside of storyline. SM FP<NiM OPS is a massive leap yes but there is plenty of steps on that staircase to get there that I do not believe making story content harder is even remotely necessary.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that. The storyline content is not designed to be a training ground for endgame content. Its to enjoy the story. If players only want to do the easiest content in game I agree incentive is not there to improve. However for those that wish a challenge there IS certainly a progression for endgame content outside of storyline. SM FP<NiM OPS is a massive leap yes but there is plenty of steps on that staircase to get there that I do not believe making story content harder is even remotely necessary.

If you offer challenge only in endgame content, common players would never get there, they will leave before they reach endgame. You must realize current SWTOR players are those who like story like you, or something else. All normal gamers left. If you care about the game and want it to survive, you should care about population.

I play since 2012. So I have experience to say something about the game.

I'm not talking about hardcore frustrating combat or something like that. I'm speaking of difficult enough so you are happy to gear up, value consumables, etc. Have reason to group people etc, and generally have more satisfaction from fights.

If I play the game now it's with companion passive, and then it is somewhat what should be like, or was.

But that's not the way to handle the issue.

You must realize story and cartel market alone is not enough to keep players in game.

I find ZERO interest in making the game far harder, I'm very happy with how it is currently.

So I mostly disagree with the vast majority the OP said.

I don't think the base stories should be really hard -- and certainly not the starting planet. But I think by Chapter 2, you should need to start paying attention to gear somewhat. Secondly, a free affection boost to your starting companion (level 25?) would counteract some of the difficulty increase for those who need it.

Telling someone to have empty gear slots is not the way to make the game harder. In every RPG I've ever played, if you find shiny new equipment with better stats, you put it on. A newcomer to SWTOR would know to follow that same line of logic, thus actively seek out gear if they are struggling with game difficulty.

The current game scaling of the base stories leaves you over-leveled and under-geared.

I find ZERO interest in making the game far harder, I'm very happy with how it is currently.

 

So I mostly disagree with the vast majority the OP said.

Will see how happy you are when it's gone.

Game by definition is something that offers challenge, and you get pleasure from overcoming it.

That is just absolutely not true, and since this isn't true, it kind of kills your entire post since it is built on this assumption.

Games do not have to be "difficult" to be fun. For example, I occasionally like to play Story of Seasons. A game that is not "difficult" by any means, yet is great fun to me. All the way back since the PSX days.

Nothing suggests all aspects or even anything in a game needs to be difficult to be fun.

Game

noun

a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

1. Yes I mentioned that not everyone id for challenge. But most people do, thats what you expect when you play a game, even chess. It is true endgame and flashpoint offer challenge, but the problem is people will leave before that.

Apparently not most SWTOR players, or this change towards making the game easier wouldn't have happened.

Most people who seek a challenge, go to other games that offer a challenge.

You're just assuming that the majority of other players feel like you. And that's wrong.

That's like me playing Darksouls and saying it should be easier because I like easier games, hence *most* gamers like easier games.

Game

noun

a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

Game

noun

an activity that one engages in for amusement or fun.

See? There's more than one definition of game.

(This one's from the Oxford Dictionary, btw)

Will see how happy you are when it's gone.

It has lasted 10 years so far in this "easy" form... what makes you think that people will suddenly leave in droves because they don't make it harder all of a sudden?

You're coming back to that "seeking challenge" thing, which you haven't proven. What about people who play games to have fun?

Can you prove that challenges are un-fun? I personally play games for the challenge before everything else. Without challenge, I’m disinterested, no matter how awesome the story is or whatever. Challenge is fun because it gives me a chance to prove my skill.

That said, there are absolutely difficult things to SWTOR that the OP is skipping, from the sounds of it. If you want a challenge, don’t look to something focused on making sure people can get to said challenges (i.e. leveling). The story is what’s supposed to make leveling fun, not the gameplay. SWTOR has some of the best leveling content in MMO history because of the various stories, not because the gameplay is anything special. The leveling, the story, is a vessel that takes you from the character select screen to the endgame, were the challenge is, nothing more.

If you offer challenge only in endgame content, common players would never get there, they will leave before they reach endgame. You must realize current SWTOR players are those who like story like you, or something else. All normal gamers left. If you care about the game and want it to survive, you should care about population.

 

I play since 2012. So I have experience to say something about the game.

I'm not talking about hardcore frustrating combat or something like that. I'm speaking of difficult enough so you are happy to gear up, value consumables, etc. Have reason to group people etc, and generally have more satisfaction from fights..

Interesting that you say that people "need a reason" to group up and that reason is only in making content harder. That is not true, I have seen a number of individuals that group up just for the fun of it. We group up in our guild for various activities, leveling, heroics, etc. We don't need to have a reason to group up and most people I know do not either.

Game

noun

an activity that one engages in for amusement or fun.

 

See? There's more than one definition of game.

 

(This one's from the Oxford Dictionary, btw)

Hi there,

My post was in direct response to the previous post:

That is just absolutely not true, and since this isn't true, it kind of kills your entire post since it is built on this assumption.

 

Games do not have to be "difficult" to be fun. For example, I occasionally like to play Story of Seasons. A game that is not "difficult" by any means, yet is great fun to me. All the way back since the PSX days.

 

Nothing suggests all aspects or even anything in a game needs to be difficult to be fun.

So I wanted Alssaran to realize that the post he quoted is, in fact, true.

Let me know if you're having trouble following, OEE. I can explain in more detail if you need it.

It has lasted 10 years so far in this "easy" form... what makes you think that people will suddenly leave in droves because they don't make it harder all of a sudden?

We've gone over this in other threads. The game was actually more difficult 10 years ago, 8 years ago, and even 6 years ago. Bolster / level sync broke the vanilla game.

Can you prove that challenges are un-fun? I personally play games for the challenge before everything else. Without challenge, I’m disinterested, no matter how awesome the story is or whatever. Challenge is fun because it gives me a chance to prove my skill.

Of course I can't prove that, since it's at least partially a matter of opinion. On the other hand, I didn't say that challenges are un-fun. What I said was that they aren't the be-all and end-all of fun, nor of the definition of a game.

Note also something I said on the Dantooine H2 missions, specifically the one on Pubside:

Gunnery Commando with almost complete 252 with 236 and 240 augments everywhere over here. R50 Lana got squished rapidly, and ran in circles collecting missiles and shooting it any way that was off-cooldown and compatible with shoot-while-move. Took a while, but I took it down.

 

Most fun I've had in a SWTOR PvE fight in a long, long time, right up there with:

* Saving the wipe solo against the last 5% or so, maybe a little more, health each of the hovertanks in Explosive Conflict, with my (dead) guildies cheering me on via Discord.(1)

* Realising that the Voss Exarch was dead in late 2015 when I leaped into the Voss DSF mission without actually knowing what I was doing.

 

(1) We failed the DPS check, the tanks enraged, and my guildies were all squished in under ten seconds. My character (the same commando, but in weaker gear) just dug her heels in and refused to die.

Note above all the part that I emphasised.

That said, there are absolutely difficult things to SWTOR that the OP is skipping, from the sounds of it. If you want a challenge, don’t look to something focused on making sure people can get to said challenges (i.e. leveling). The story is what’s supposed to make leveling fun, not the gameplay. SWTOR has some of the best leveling content in MMO history because of the various stories, not because the gameplay is anything special. The leveling, the story, is a vessel that takes you from the character select screen to the endgame, were the challenge is, nothing more.

Agreed.