You don't know what the majority cares more about but you like to think that it's the

same thing as you do.

No, I don't, I'm suggesting as a possibility based on what is known about the game. You however don't even want to consider it to be a possibility because the idea is ridiculous to you.

The story is what makes this game stand out I get it, but to you, it's unfathomable to think that it is very likely since this is an MMO, the majority would like to do MMO stuff here.

No, that's not at all the case.

If someone is looking for an MMO where they can do "MMO Stuff" then SWTOR generally isn't going to be their first choice nor is it the best choice. Other than it's story SWTOR has no real advantage over WoW, FF14, ESO, GW2, etc. There are better places to get the/a MMO experience than SWTOR and as a result of that and SWTOR's focus on solo PVE content SWTOR is gets seen as a single-player MMO by a number of people who play lots of different MMO or are big into the MMO genre.

SWTOR doesn't have the best combat of any MMO out there, it doesn't have the best group content, it doesn't really have any side activities like fishing or farming, etc, so if somebody is looking for an MMO with really strong combat they're not looking to SWTOR, if they're looking for an MMO with really strong group content they're not looking to SWTOR, so then what do people look to SWTOR for or reliably know it offers?

Not the solo players, it was done to remove hybrids cause they were causing balance issues in PvP, solo players just got their customization option taken from them.

It didn't benefit the PVPers by removing their options and created a system that was more streamlined and easier for newer players to get into and understand. The same audience they're going after with Combat Styles.

Those people who couldn't care less about companions benefitted, those who didn't want to spend their time on their comps, gear them or choose a different comp for a different situation because that guy tanks and that guy heals

Complete BS.

You had many players ever since launch who would run around with their Love Interests because they liked having them around but in many cases the LIs weren't the best or optimal companions to have. When companions were overhauled it suddenly allowed everyone to use the exact companions they wanted without any drawbacks.

Companions benefit the solo players and those who like to play the story. They're of no use or benefit to people who focus on PVP or Raids because you can't use companions there.

Bioware benefited, suddenly there is much more content for everyone)

It was the same amount of content that had existed. Nothing new got added, but it did allow for players to do something that had been a highly requested feature since launch which was the ability to just play through the class stories if that's all someone wanted to do.

Also what was the benefit to PVPers and Raiders of planet syncing?

How do players interact with the game most of the time? How many abilities do players have that are not used for combat? Even in story content, it's not like you just watch the cutscenes, choose dialogue options, and that's it. Can you complete your story without fighting anyone? (Some games have those options, this game doesn't). How can you pretend so much that you are not playing a combat-oriented multiplayer game?

I'm not pretending that combat isn't something people spend a lot time in the game doing, I'm saying it's not the thing that many people (if anyone) comes to SWTOR specifically for because the combat in the game isn't good enough to do that. It's super generic, boring, repetitive, etc.

Just because the combat is something players spend a significant amount of time engaging with doesn't mean they think it's good or is the thing they want to be spending almost all of their time doing.

The story is cool, but when everything revolves around fighting here you can't say this is all about a story.

I'm saying that the story has generally always been SWTOR's biggest draw and the focus of much of Bioware's attention. Bioware has never given the game's combat the same amount of attention and devotion as the story.

Perhaps you can explain how "do not implement a gameplay overhaul that no one asked for or wants" is a pie in the sky idea.

That's not an idea or what I'm talking about when I say pie in the sky ideas.

When I say pie in the sky ideas I'm talking "I want to be able to hop in my space ship like No Man's Sky and travel to and land on any planet but I want the planets to be as robust as what Skyrim offers." the "No Man's Skyrim" if you will. That is the sort of thing that SWTOR isn't going to have or achieve. It's fine to request it but also try and request more than just that if you can.

Again -- whatever resources Bioware have at their disposal or want to devote to this game isn't the customer's problem.

And if the game isn't offering what the customer wants why is the customer sticking around? Don't you think the customer should have figured that out by year 3 or 5 that the game isn't doing that instead of still holding out hope in year 10?

That's a business decision. If the game isn't profitable, kill it off (but we both know that's not the case by a long shot).

SWTOR makes money without EA having to spend much money on it. So then the question becomes how do you convince EA to spend more money on SWTOR than they need to? "Hey I have this idea for this huge unnecessary risk you guys should take that might not pan out."

If they insist on offering less and less for the same price tag, they should expect to lose business in what is an extremely competitive market as their customers wise up.

Or they're aware they can still continue to make money off SWTOR, specifically when a new update hits, instead of spending more money on the game than they think is necessary.

Other than Wildstar how many notable MMOs can you think of that have shut down in the last several years? How is that games like Age of Conan, Champions Online, D&D Online, etc, are still up and running? It's not because they're super popular. Do you think maybe it's harder for MMOs to die off completely compared to what people expect/assume?

I badly want them to do a full-on FF14 style overhaul to the game but that doesn't mean I don't understand why they don't and just because I understand that doesn't mean I agree with or support it either.

At the end of the day, this is me getting less value out of my sub fee, owing to simplified and less involved gameplay.

And you're only noticing that now in year 10 of the game and not the years prior of them doing the same basic stuff on repeat?

A Combat Styles update that doesn't trim 50% of the ability bar would be better.

I keep seeing this claim. Admittedly, I have not logged in to check Sentinel because I do not play Sentinel, but I did log in and checked both Vigilance and Focus Guardian and excluding the two abilities I said they were no going to be removing, that they have confirmed are not being removed and which are back in this iteration, I absolutely was not missing 50% of my abilities. I was not even missing 75% of my abilities. See, it is these hyperbolic, patently and easily proven false arguments that make it difficult to take seriously any of the criticism that is being levied at these changes.

And you're only noticing that now in year 10 of the game and not the years prior of them doing the same basic stuff on repeat?

Funny. I actually unsubscribed when they released KotFE. Only came back when they had completed their ridiculous episodic release plan for GftM, and decided to stick around when they announced a new full raid for 6.0. So about the time they did away with the atrocious galactic command thing and appeared to be committed to making content I'm interested in, steadily if slowly.

So yeah, I am very mindful of the value I get from my money, and have been for years. When this goes through in its current form, I will once again take my business elsewhere. No drama. I don't think the game will "die" from this as in they will pull the plug either. They can still make a bit of money from whatever subscribers they can keep in maintenance mode. I will simply not be one of them.

This is an irrelevant digression, in any case. You keep bringing up hypothetical reasons why Bioware (not necessarily EA, other studios have done fine and keep releasing quality products under them) keep doing the absolute minimum as if that were my concern. It is not. I do not care. RoI is their problem, not mine. I will convey my dislike of the changes they are proposing, and exercise my discretion when they implement those changes.

Once again, that this fact seems to make you uncomfortable enough to keep trying to convince people how this isn't the right way to approach what is essentially a consumer-provider relationship is... baffling.

So yeah, I am very mindful of the value I get from my money, and have been for years. When this goes through in its current form, I will once again take my business elsewhere. No drama. I don't think the game will "die" from this as in they will pull the plug either. They can still make a bit of money from whatever subscribers they can keep in maintenance mode. I will simply not be one of them.

Wait so you're telling me the numbers of the game will increase and draw people like you back in whenever there's a major game-changing update and then the numbers level off until the next giant update? How untypical for these type of games. Surely the companies behind such games don't plan on or account for this exact sort of thing ever happening right?

This is an irrelevant digression, in any case. You keep bringing up hypothetical reasons why Bioware (not necessarily EA, other studios have done fine and keep releasing quality products under them) keep doing the absolute minimum as if that were my concern. It is not. I do not care.

They keep doing the bare minimum and the best course of action is obviously to keep rewarding them by resubbing to the game.

It is your concern and you do care when you keep playing the game and your wants are not met.

Once again, that this fact seems to make you uncomfortable enough to keep trying to convince people how this isn't the right way to approach what is essentially a consumer-provider relationship is... baffling.

It doesn't make me uncomfortable and I've said multiple times people can voice their concerns about it any way they want but I also encourage them to come at things from a different angle or to perhaps suggest things simply beyond "more class stories" because even if that's the thing you want to see most there are no doubt other things you're interested and want out of the game but by just simply repeating "more class stories" over and over again doesn't get you any closer to those other things you want because all you keep talking about are class stories.

I'm afraid BW devs are trying to understand what's wrong with PvP just like we are, but we actually play the game))

I think that PvP balance in an MMO is a myth anyway. There is no such thing.

The reason I say that is because I feel it's impossible to balance DPS output, Healing output, Stealth, CC, speed boosts, gap closers, rolls (and double rolls), dcd's and evasion (meaning 100% damage reduction), etc. etc.

And that is because you can't really put them in a list against each other and value them the same way. Now there are some excesses and those you can fix. But let's be realistic...BW has never been good at these fixes and certainly hasn't been fast.

In GW2 skill balances are done at least once a month, for example. That's the only way you can keep up with what players do with it. Skill balances in SWTOR are few and far between. That ultimately is the problem.

I think that PvP balance in an MMO is a myth anyway. There is no such thing.

 

The reason I say that is because I feel it's impossible to balance DPS output, Healing output, Stealth, CC, speed boosts, gap closers, rolls (and double rolls), dcd's and evasion (meaning 100% damage reduction), etc. etc.

 

And that is because you can't really put them in a list against each other and value them the same way. Now there are some excesses and those you can fix. But let's be realistic...BW has never been good at these fixes and certainly hasn't been fast.

 

In GW2 skill balances are done at least once a month, for example. That's the only way you can keep up with what players do with it. Skill balances in SWTOR are few and far between. That ultimately is the problem.

I agree.

When it comes to these situations it kind of feels like the PVP and PVE gameplay needs to be separate. Here's how things work for PVP combat here's how things work for PVE.

"But then it'll play differently and people will have to use different setups and rotations for PVE vs PVP!" That's already what the situation is though.

I don't want to go as far as saying PVP should have their own exclusive skill sets, ie Madness Sorc is only available in PVP and the only option available in PVP for Sorcs, but it obviously would make things easier to balance for these type of situations where you not only have to balance the classes in general against one another but all the variations of each class against all the variations of every other class.

This whole thing reminds me a lot of what happened with Star Wars Galaxies back in the day. It had a nice hard-core player base but when they decided to completely change the combat system with their CU (combat upgrade) that was really the death of the game. It was just a shameless copy of the WOW combat system and funny thing is, looking back on it the CU was a massive upgrade. The combat system of SWG was atrocious. However ppl didn't care, they gutted the thing that ppl were used to playing and they lost all their hard-core players. Let's face it, SWG is a 10 year old game that uses an engine that was outdated the year this game released. The players who are here love the game as is. SWTOR isn't going to all of a sudden see an influx of subs overnight due to these changes.

As far as pvp ttk, I honestly don't think the bioware devs play this game if they think it's broken. Of course it's situation dependent, but if u don't have a tank and heals you can be stun locked and blown up in about 10 seconds due to burst being the meta atm. Imagine taking away cool downs in this environment. Jugg/Guardian has been a very weak class since focus defense was nerfed around 4.0 iirc. It's the class that you start to drool when you see because you know they are squishy af. And now they are removing even more dcd's? I just dont think it's a good idea survivability is going to be at an all time low. In a pug group the other night I had a healer with me and I was playing vanguard tank and I died 11 times to a premade running high burst specs. And you are telling me removing dcds is gonna improve the experience? I dunno about that lmaooo 😂😂😂

This whole thing reminds me a lot of what happened with Star Wars Galaxies back in the day. It had a nice hard-core player base but when they decided to completely change the combat system with their CU (combat upgrade) that was really the death of the game. It was just a shameless copy of the WOW combat system

Well I guess it's a good thing SWTOR didn't copy WoW

The players who are here love the game as is.

That is not true.

There might be some part of the audience that is content with the game but you're not going to find many people who like the game as is or don't want to see some type of major overhaul or improvement to something whether that be combat, story, crafting, character creation, etc.

I'd say there are more people who are used to what SWTOR is and/or tolerate it for the faults that has compared to the amount of people that like it exactly as it is.

SWTOR isn't going to all of a sudden see an influx of subs overnight due to these changes.

No but it will see an influx of subs overnight when these changes launch as part of 7.0 and Bioware/EA are aware of that and are counting on that.

If these changes were something that were launching all on their own as part of a patch that be one thing, but they're not. They're launching alongside a new expansion with new story, new group content, etc, and the case has been for a long while now that you/we see a large influx of new players for like a month or two when the new expansion launches before things sort of settle down again.

Combat Styles are getting a lot of attention in ways that SWTOR announcements haven't for a while now. Whether Combat Styles end up being good or bad it's hard to deny that announcement of combat styles is getting more media coverage, people talking about SWTOR than anything has for SWTOR in quite some time.

That type of attention and curiosity about how it'll all work is going to bring people to the game. A new expansion with new story and all that will always get new subs and the numbers to spike for a period of time. Combat Styles brings in even more attention atop all of that or beyond what they're used to seeing from the typical expansion and again that's regardless if Combat Styles end being good or not.

If someone is looking for an MMO where they can do "MMO Stuff" then SWTOR generally isn't going to be their first choice nor is it the best choice. Other than it's story SWTOR has no real advantage over WoW, FF14, ESO, GW2, etc. There are better places to get the/a MMO experience than SWTOR and as a result of that and SWTOR's focus on solo PVE content SWTOR is gets seen as a single-player MMO by a number of people who play lots of different MMO or are big into the MMO genre.

 

SWTOR doesn't have the best combat of any MMO out there, it doesn't have the best group content, it doesn't really have any side activities like fishing or farming, etc, so if somebody is looking for an MMO with really strong combat they're not looking to SWTOR, if they're looking for an MMO with really strong group content they're not looking to SWTOR

That sounds like a failure) And if someone wants to play a single-player story-driven Star Wars game they will not think of SWOR and even if they will, that would certainly not gonna be the best option for them. I don't even want to start on how ridiculous the phrase "single-player MMO" sounds if you know what that abbreviation means (MMO with the dead servers?).

I'm not pretending that combat isn't something people spend a lot time in the game doing, I'm saying it's not the thing that many people (if anyone) comes to SWTOR specifically for because the combat in the game isn't good enough to do that. It's super generic, boring, repetitive, etc.

 

Just because the combat is something players spend a significant amount of time engaging with doesn't mean they think it's good or is the thing they want to be spending almost all of their time doing.

 

I'm saying that the story has generally always been SWTOR's biggest draw and the focus of much of Bioware's attention. Bioware has never given the game's combat the same amount of attention and devotion as the story.

Is this the right thing to focus tho? Square Enix focused on the coolest graphics for their original FF14 cuz they thought it makes them stand out and didn't bother as much about how combat and gameplay overall would feel to the players, and you know how that turned out: full game revamp.

All those cinematic dialogs and voiceovers are great, it's really good the game has those, but they need better combat to back it up and more activities to keep those who became interested, I think.

That sounds like a failure)

Nobody is claiming that SWTOR was an overwhelming success. It failed to meet EA's expectations, it went Free To Play, the game's budget and staff sized were reduced.

And if someone wants to play a single-player story-driven Star Wars game they will not think of SWOR and even if they will, that would certainly not gonna be the best option for them.

You're right, it's not, but it does provide an ongoing Star Wars story for them to experience. That has always been one of the biggest pulls of the game for returning players/subs. They want to see where the story goes how it continues, etc.

Also if someone wants a combat focused SW game they're not looking to SWTOR either. There are games like Battlefront out there and even older SW games that people still play multiplayer with like Jedi Outcast.

I don't even want to start on how ridiculous the phrase "single-player MMO" sounds

It's not something I came up with, it's how many people have referred to SWTOR over the years.

if you know what that abbreviation means (MMO with the dead servers?).

It kind of doesn't mean anything. It's an abbreviation for Massively Multiplayer Online but that doesn't really mean anything anymore. Massively multiplayer online what exactly? Nowadays multiplayer and online have become fairly synonymous with one another to the point where if someone hears a game is multiplayer that assume or expect it to be/have online making "Multiplayer Online" kind of redundant.

It also doesn't/didn't help that the term/acronym became very nebulous over time. For a number of years most people tended to have the same definition of what an MMO was. Giant open spaces where many players could all play together at the same time, ie Ultima Online, Everquest, etc, however over time you'd get games with MMO elements but were much smaller in scale (Phantasy Star Online, Destiny, Warframe, etc) yet people would refer to them as MMOs despite there really being nothing "Massive" about them.

MMO was/is shorthand for the acronym MMORPG because it was a ridiculously long acronym to describe something when the whole idea of an acronym is to shorten something that's already long. Given where the term ended up they should've just called them Online RPGs or ORPGs.

Is this the right thing to focus tho? Square Enix focused on the coolest graphics for their original FF14 cuz they thought it makes them stand out and didn't bother as much about how combat and gameplay overall would feel to the players, and you know how that turned out: full game revamp.

Yes, how unfortunate for Square that it ultimately resulted in them now currently having the most successful MMO on the market.

All those cinematic dialogs and voiceovers are great, it's really good the game has those, but they need better combat to back it up and more activities to keep those who became interested, I think.

I've been saying throughout this entire thread that the game needs better combat.

SWTOR is lacking in a lot of areas but perhaps the biggest is the frequency of updates. Elder Scrolls Online shows that an MMO can still retain players even if they make all sorts of changes, nerfs, etc, to the combat, crafting and whatever else because despite all those changes ESO still continues to put out updates at a fairly decent rate and a number of them end up being sizeable updates so that's going to get people to come back, or new players coming in, out of curiosity or whatever even if they didn't like the previous changes and what not.

Nobody is claiming that SWTOR was an overwhelming success. It failed to meet EA's expectations, it went Free To Play, the game's budget and staff sized were reduced.

The game's budget and staff were reduced directly after the release, as was planned. I don't know if the first year led to further downsizing, but the initial downsizing wasn't after it failed to meet EA's expectations. That was entirely the plan.

SWTOR almost did die that first year though, so you're being altogether too generous. The game went from 200 servers to something like 35 within the first year and F2P and the CM saved the game. I do think though that as far as things to do, SWTOR doesn't have many dimensions. So for me the main appeal is still that it's SW.

Yes, how unfortunate for Square that it ultimately resulted in them now currently having the most successful MMO on the market.

Because they have abandoned the original and made a reboot which looked almost nothing like the old version.

at 35:25 you will see the visual comparison.

Wait so you're telling me the numbers of the game will increase and draw people like you back in whenever there's a major game-changing update and then the numbers level off until the next giant update? How untypical for these type of games. Surely the companies behind such games don't plan on or account for this exact sort of thing ever happening right?

I like that you arrived at this conclusion by retreading your basic argument throughout this thread. That is, that Bioware know what they are doing, that they have always been doing the same thing, and that nothing will really change because this is a repetition of past cycles. So no point asking for improvements and we should instead offer business advice because then they might just listen.

However, that glosses over the constantly changing development focus and priorities and instead uses an ad-hoc infallibility hypothesis to suggest that it was their plan all along rather than the far simpler and more likely explanation that they have no clue where to take the game. This is supported by the turnover in the company and the changing of game directors. It seems to be a pattern throughout the company, not just in Austin, and affects other products as well.

So how about you address what I actually said rather than what you wish I said -- that the announced gameplay changes will, in their current form, cause me to stop giving them money because it is a strict downgrade in the gameplay. That seems to be the opinion of many others as well. We may or may not come back to the game at some point, but that seems like an unnecessary gamble to make when sticking to making more content and bugfixing has significant less risk of alienating current customers. Again: in a market oversaturated with options, it's... extremely optimistic to assume that your next content patch will draw back all the customers you sacrificed when chasing after yesterday's fad. Is the revolving door strategy paying off when after several server merges, you still end up with dead servers and content is hard to pug even in the more active ones? All part of the plan, I guess.

Oh, and since you brought it up. Have you actually played any of those other MMOs you mentioned lately? Because for example DDO is a complete wasteland, with the remaining population being a few dozen vets grinding high reaper on their way to their 285th TR. No LFG, no guilds recruiting (because there is no one to recruit), no non-reaper raiding. And that's even after a massive promo last year where they gave away 95% of the content. Doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me, but I guess they also knew what they are doing, right? Because so long as there's at least one server running, it's technically not dead.

They keep doing the bare minimum and the best course of action is obviously to keep rewarding them by resubbing to the game.

No. I kept my subscription when they made a move away from the dreadful "thrill of the hunt", stepped up group content delivery, and committed to tech upgrades. That all happened during the later 5.x up until 6.1. I kept subscribing because they seemed to have veered away from the terrible 4.0 and 5.0 direction for good.

It is your concern and you do care when you keep playing the game and your wants are not met.

No. I am playing the game in its current form. I do not think of my subscription as an investment or an ongoing development funding vehicle. Once it stops being worth it for me, I will stop paying. I am simply noting that with the current proposed changes, that will happen when the expansion is released.

 

...

 

So how about you address what I actually said rather than what you wish I said --

 

...

Not sure how this part will go though. But I liked your post.

It does all seem like yet another player-blind move by an MMO developer.

Yep definitely!

You would think after 10 years of SWTOR and almost 20 years of modern MMOG/MMORPG that us 'dumb' gamers would have aged and matured enough to actually know what we like???

Bioware EA -- your customers aren't kids, tweens, and 20 somethings only anymore.

Some of us actually know what for and stuff --- allegedly

Because they have abandoned the original and made a reboot which looked almost nothing like the old version.

at 35:25 you will see the visual comparison.

Yes, I know, and they still currently have the most successful MMO on the market right now. None of what you're saying changes that fact.

Yep definitely!

 

You would think after 10 years of SWTOR and almost 20 years of modern MMOG/MMORPG that us 'dumb' gamers would have aged and matured enough to actually know what we like???

 

Bioware EA -- your customers aren't kids, tweens, and 20 somethings only anymore.

 

Some of us actually know what for and stuff --- allegedly

Well, apparently BW is listening to the players because there are been people calling for this, for a combat rebalance, people declaring that the combat is clunky, rotations are too long, TTK is too long, etc., no? Has that not been the refrain from the people who are against this?

So which is it? Should BW listen to their players, or should they only listen to the players who agree with you? Because, from the claims that have been made from some of the people in your "camp" these are changes that align with requests from the players. Just not your type of "players."

I like that you arrived at this conclusion by retreading your basic argument throughout this thread. That is, that Bioware know what they are doing, that they have always been doing the same thing, and that nothing will really change because this is a repetition of past cycles.

No, I'm not claiming that they know what they're doing just that what they've been doing over the past 10 years keeps the game in a state that it's able to continue onwards. They know that pretty much regardless of what they do they're going to see a numbers increase when they release an expansion. The amount of attention, numbers, money, etc, they draw during that time is probably more than what they see across an entire year when they go without any kind of significant update.

Combat Styles are something that draws a lot of attention. It's getting attention in ways that previous updates haven't for quite some time.

So no point asking for improvements and we should instead offer business advice because then they might just listen.

No, I said to try and offer advice about multiple things and to try and suggest more than "Combat Styles bad, don't do em!" which has basically been what you've been saying as if that's any kind of help.

Where btw in this thread did you offer advice on how they could improve combat styles as opposed to just saying/suggesting they shouldn't do them?

So how about you address what I actually said rather than what you wish I said -- that the announced gameplay changes will, in their current form, cause me to stop giving them money because it is a strict downgrade in the gameplay.

So when 7.0 releases you won't be playing it all? As in you won't be playing through the story or trying out any of the new content, etc? Because if you are going to play 7.0 then you're not accomplishing anything by subbing and then unsubbing once you get everything out the expansion the way many others do. If you do decide to stop subbing during that period you're not really accomplishing anything either due to your willingness to come back to the game.

You keep trying to justify it through "I don't sub when I don't like the changes but do sub when they improve things." but you're still rewarding the company that makes bad changes to the game because at the end of the day you still want to play SWTOR and you'll try to rationalize that any way you can.

That seems to be the opinion of many others as well.

Really, because I'm not getting the impression that people are going to stop subbing when 7.0 releases but instead the game will have a drop-off in numbers after the first two months it comes out which has typically been the case when they release expansions.

"Yeah but it's going to be way more people than usual!" maybe but not enough to actually kill the game especially not before they can get to a point where they can recover from it by making a new set of changes.

If this is accurate look at where the numbers go up and down then cross-reference that with what changes happened and when.

https://mmo-population.com/r/swtor/stats

We may or may not come back to the game at some point

Yeah you will. If/when they release (big) story updates they're always going to see a large influx of players because that continues to be the biggest draw for a number of players.

If the game's combat was anything worth celebrating or sticking around for you most likely wouldn't see the significant drop-offs between expansions but the reality has always been that it's not a big enough draw to the game or the thing that keeps players coming back.

Do you seriously think that when a lot of people leave the game between expansions that the thing they're most excited to get back to when they return is the combat? There's no reason to get excited about it, especially when PVE content offers little to no variety with players approaching many encounters the same way everytime, ie run into a mob press 1-3 (if even that) on their skill bar before running to the next mob and repeating. Same goes for FPs and OPs tor. You're not necessarily approaching the encounters the same way you do in the open world but you're doing the exact same things, patterns, etc, to take down the bosses and enemies every time.

That type of unremarkable combat with little to no variety isn't a strong selling point for the game believe it or not.

but that seems like an unnecessary gamble to make when sticking to making more content and bugfixing has significant less risk of alienating current customers.

Not really. It's gotten a lot of attention and will bring in a lot of people if only for a month or two. They can eventually change how it all works in a further update if things aren't the way people want like they did Galactic Command.

Again: in a market oversaturated with options, it's... extremely optimistic to assume that your next content patch will draw back all the customers you sacrificed when chasing after yesterday's fad.

It's not trying to draw back all customers, just enough of them.

Is the revolving door strategy paying off when after several server merges, you still end up with dead servers and content is hard to pug even in the more active ones? All part of the plan, I guess.

Unless EA significantly re-invests in the game it's going to be SWTOR's fate to slowly die off/out. Not doing Combat Styles isn't going to change that.

Oh, and since you brought it up. Have you actually played any of those other MMOs you mentioned lately? Because for example DDO is a complete wasteland, with the remaining population being a few dozen vets grinding high reaper on their way to their 285th TR. No LFG, no guilds recruiting (because there is no one to recruit), no non-reaper raiding. And that's even after a massive promo last year where they gave away 95% of the content. Doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me, but I guess they also knew what they are doing, right? Because so long as there's at least one server running, it's technically not dead.

Right and making enough money somehow to keep the servers up and running. That is SWTOR's fate if it doesn't get some type of overhaul. How do you not understand after all this time that's where SWTOR is headed?

No. I kept my subscription when they made a move away from the dreadful "thrill of the hunt", stepped up group content delivery, and committed to tech upgrades. That all happened during the later 5.x up until 6.1. I kept subscribing because they seemed to have veered away from the terrible 4.0 and 5.0 direction for good.

 

No. I am playing the game in its current form. I do not think of my subscription as an investment or an ongoing development funding vehicle. Once it stops being worth it for me, I will stop paying. I am simply noting that with the current proposed changes, that will happen when the expansion is released.

That's a fallacy and excuse you to justify continued play of the game the same way many others do with other games of the type.

Well, apparently BW is listening to the players because there are been people calling for this, for a combat rebalance, people declaring that the combat is clunky, rotations are too long, TTK is too long, etc., no? Has that not been the refrain from the people who are against this?

 

So which is it? Should BW listen to their players, or should they only listen to the players who agree with you? Because, from the claims that have been made from some of the people in your "camp" these are changes that align with requests from the players. Just not your type of "players."

You might think I have a 'type of player', but let me correct you that I don't - I like everyone that plays SWTOR. I don't do the elitist gamer thing...

But you raise a valid point:

Who do you listen to, if you have a game community with chaos theory level opinions?

Now I can't speak to the motivations of those agreeing with nuking DCD's or the "I don't care about your mechanics - do whatever (I don't have time to think about this)" crowd... Voices like mine are not trying to be obstructionist, we are cautious and conservative about a game that has successfully existed for 10 years.

A conservative, method, logic based development path.

This is not an Intellectual Property (IP) that lends itself to RADICAL changes, It is an IP that requires a steady hand, nerves of steel, and a clear vision of the path ahead.

Then there is accepted game design theory and philosophy, some of which has made it into threads on PTS Forums from far more astute people than a simple player with a overactive HK-Troll-Droid

Voices like mine do not see those attributes in this proposed change.

So which group should be listened to?

The one with Rational arguments based in Reason, and attempting to preserve what helps make this game unique and engaging.

You can't design for everyone - Bioware shouldn't feel the need to apologize for the game SWTOR is!

So which group should be listened to?

 

The one with Rational arguments based in Reason, and attempting to preserve what helps make this game unique and engaging.

If the idea is that you can't design for everyone then that potentially suggests there is no right answer including the above.

You believe that to be the right answer but what happens if you have a game or situation where the group you're talking about represents 100 people playing the game but then there's a much larger audience of a million other players saying something different?

Even if those million players are irrational and want radically different changes they at the end of the day account for the game's larger audience which is a hard thing for a developer or publisher to ignore. That's not to say that they're right but rather a game isn't necessarily going to be successful or survive based on just listening to the well-thought-out rational audience.

In other words that can't be the right or only answer because it too presents problems/issues.

and attempting to preserve what helps make this game unique and engaging.

If the idea is to preserve everything that is unique does that mean they should ditch or be willing to change the elements of the game that aren't unique? We know for a fact that SWTOR copied WoW so if that's the case should they diverge from the things they copied from WoW or the most WoW like parts of the game in order to provide a more unique experience?

You can't design for everyone - Bioware shouldn't feel the need to apologize for the game SWTOR is!

I don't know, I think there's a number of things people would be fine with Bioware apologizing for in regards to SWTOR

No, I'm not claiming that they know what they're doing just that what they've been doing over the past 10 years keeps the game in a state that it's able to continue onwards. They know that pretty much regardless of what they do they're going to see a numbers increase when they release an expansion. The amount of attention, numbers, money, etc, they draw during that time is probably more than what they see across an entire year when they go without any kind of significant update.

Do you have any hard figures for all that? Yeah, didn't think so.

Combat Styles are something that draws a lot of attention. It's getting attention in ways that previous updates haven't for quite some time.

Yeah. A school shooting also draws attention. What is your point?

No, I said to try and offer advice about multiple things and to try and suggest more than "Combat Styles bad, don't do em!" which has basically been what you've been saying as if that's any kind of help.

 

Where btw in this thread did you offer advice on how they could improve combat styles as opposed to just saying/suggesting they shouldn't do them?

Get it through your skull. I don't have to be "helpful". I am merely stating a preference. I'm sorry this bothers you so deeply that you need to write a treatise every time you reply.

So when 7.0 releases you won't be playing it all?

Yes. I will unsub and uninstall the game. Plenty of stuff to keep me entertained.

You keep trying to justify it through "I don't sub when I don't like the changes but do sub when they improve things." but you're still rewarding the company that makes bad changes to the game because at the end of the day you still want to play SWTOR and you'll try to rationalize that any way you can.

What the hell? I said I unsubbed and forgot about the game during the 4-5.0 era. Came back when I got word that they had completed GftM and were moving away from galactic command -- decided to stay when they announced a new full raid. I do not have any ulterior motives, I do not intend to "punish" Bioware, that's just stupid. I simply don't like where they are going, so I stop paying. I have no attachment. What's so hard to understand?

Really, because I'm not getting the impression that people are going to stop subbing when 7.0 releases but instead the game will have a drop-off in numbers after the first two months it comes out which has typically been the case when they release expansions.

No, that's the impression you are getting because that's what you want to believe, as it's what fits your narrative and validates your discourse that all will be well regardless. Go ahead and check out the feedback threads. Never in the history of the game has there been such unanimous negative reaction against proposed changes.

"Yeah but it's going to be way more people than usual!" maybe but not enough to actually kill the game especially not before they can get to a point where they can recover from it by making a new set of changes.

 

If this is accurate look at where the numbers go up and down then cross-reference that with what changes happened and when.

 

https://mmo-population.com/r/swtor/stats

Wow. Those trends match what I said almost to a T. Dec 2018 is when 5.10 dropped, which is the Ossus and nim GftM patch. Oct 2019 marks the release of 6.0, which is a big chunk of content including the new raid. It's almost as if... people don't want stupid changes and more content draws them in and keeps them around.

You're making this too easy.

Yeah you will. If/when they release (big) story updates they're always going to see a large influx of players because that continues to be the biggest draw for a number of players.

Trying to be seer now? Don't quit your day job. I don't really care about story. I haven't even done the latest bits. And there's plenty of other games with good stories. Star Wars games, too. I can get my fix anywhere.

If the game's combat was anything worth celebrating or sticking around for you most likely wouldn't see the significant drop-offs between expansions but the reality has always been that it's not a big enough draw to the game or the thing that keeps players coming back.

I see what's happening. You are a revolving door story player, and think everyone else is too. Nah, I've been logging for raids almost exclusively for more than a year now. Other people just do pvp. Just because the gameplay isn't keeping you around doesn't mean it's not keeping anyone around. It seems to be keeping enough people around to keep the lights on between content drops at least.

Do you seriously think that when a lot of people leave the game between expansions that the thing they're most excited to get back to when they return is the combat? There's no reason to get excited about it, especially when PVE content offers little to no variety with players approaching many encounters the same way everytime, ie run into a mob press 1-3 (if even that) on their skill bar before running to the next mob and repeating. Same goes for FPs and OPs tor. You're not necessarily approaching the encounters the same way you do in the open world but you're doing the exact same things, patterns, etc, to take down the bosses and enemies every time.

See above. I'm excited to get new raids. Yes, that's combat. I don't care what "a lot of people" (i.e. you) do or enjoy. You don't have any hard facts on that, either. You are literally imagining a bunch of stuff and attempting to pass it off as facts. Your hypotheses don't even explain what's been happening, either.

Not really. It's gotten a lot of attention and will bring in a lot of people if only for a month or two. They can eventually change how it all works in a further update if things aren't the way people want like they did Galactic Command.

Heh. It's becoming increasingly clear that you have no clue what you are talking about. It took them close to two years to finally scrap galactic command (from early 2017 to late 2019), not two months. And during the transition we got the lame Ossus gearing which, while not as bad as the atrocious GC, was still not good.

Unless EA significantly re-invests in the game it's going to be SWTOR's fate to slowly die off/out. Not doing Combat Styles isn't going to change that.

Nice framing, but no. It's not "game will die regardless so it doesn't matter if we do this". It's more "this is looking like it might significantly harm the game's health, so why do it?".

And again, it's not EA making decisions on what resources Bioware pools for SWTOR. That's a Bioware decision. It was a Bioware decision to move people to Andromeda, to Anthem, and now to DA4. Not EA.

Right and making enough money somehow to keep the servers up and running. That is SWTOR's fate if it doesn't get some type of overhaul. How do you not understand after all this time that's where SWTOR is headed?

Lol. The costs of keeping servers running are peanuts these days. AWS, Azure, you name it. One click and you double your throughput instantly. A few hundred subscribers can probably keep those games running.

And your own figures show that's not where SWTOR is necessarily headed. So once again it falls to you to prove why SWTOR needs this when even your own figures show relatively stable and respectable population numbers between content drops. Stop reasoning back from your desired conclusion.

That's a fallacy and excuse you to justify continued play of the game the same way many others do with other games of the type.

"No that's a fallacy" is not an actual argument or rebuttal. But I see you are short on those, even if you try to cover that by typing a whole lot.

Maybe spend less time chopping up posts and writing theses and more playing the game. Who knows, you may even learn to appreciate the gameplay.

If the idea is that you can't design for everyone then that potentially suggests there is no right answer including the above.

 

You believe that to be the right answer but what happens if you have a game or situation where the group you're talking about represents 100 people playing the game but then there's a much larger audience of a million other players saying something different?

 

Even if those million players are irrational and want radically different changes they at the end of the day account for the game's larger audience which is a hard thing for a developer or publisher to ignore. That's not to say that they're right but rather a game isn't necessarily going to be successful or survive based on just listening to the well-thought-out rational audience.

 

In other words that can't be the right or only answer because it too presents problems/issues.

 

 

 

If the idea is to preserve everything that is unique does that mean they should ditch or be willing to change the elements of the game that aren't unique? We know for a fact that SWTOR copied WoW so if that's the case should they diverge from the things they copied from WoW or the most WoW like parts of the game in order to provide a more unique experience?

 

 

 

I don't know, I think there's a number of things people would be fine with Bioware apologizing for in regards to SWTOR

Not unreasonable points - though I'm not certain the analogy applies to our current circumstance or discussion; there are a large pool of players in opposition or with worthy critiques where it would be foolish not to weigh them.

The weight of a flippant fanboi post is not equal to a well reasoned critique or methodical opposition.

Do you have any hard figures for all that? Yeah, didn't think so.

...............

Wow. Those trends match what I said almost to a T. Dec 2018 is when 5.10 dropped, which is the Ossus and nim GftM patch. Oct 2019 marks the release of 6.0, which is a big chunk of content including the new raid. It's almost as if... people don't want stupid changes and more content draws them in and keeps them around.

 

You're making this too easy.

Claim that I don't have hard then use the stats I posted to try and say that you're right. Nice job.

Yeah. A school shooting also draws attention. What is your point?

That you're not right about everything the way you think you are.

Get it through your skull. I don't have to be "helpful".

"People should be allowed to be helpful."

"I don't need to be helpful."

I am merely stating a preference. I'm sorry this bothers you so deeply that you need to write a treatise every time you reply.

Says the hypocrite doing the same thing.

Yes. I will unsub and uninstall the game.

Not before playing it you won't which makes you a hypocrite.

I do not have any ulterior motives, I do not intend to "punish" Bioware, that's just stupid.

Your statements say/suggest otherwise.

I simply don't like where they are going, so I stop paying.

But continue to give them money knowing they've done these things in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

I have no attachment.

You wouldn't come back to the game or continue to play it if that were true.

No, that's the impression you are getting because that's what you want to believe

No, I gain nor benefit anything from that being true.

as it's what fits your narrative and validates your discourse that all will be well regardless.

My narrative that all will be well, yeah right. The game continuing onward is not me saying or claiming that it will do well only that it will continue onwards. Sounds like you're creating a narrative to validate yourself.

Go ahead and check out the feedback threads. Never in the history of the game has there been such unanimous negative reaction against proposed changes.

Yeah, everybody was totally cool with them removing skill trees and reworking companions. Nobody ever claimed those changes or any others were the death of the game right? This is the first time ever that doom sayers have spoken out about the game huh?

I don't really care about story.

Lots of people do but since it's not what you're into then it's not important to the game huh?

And there's plenty of other games with good stories. Star Wars games, too. I can get my fix anywhere.

Just like there are games with better combat, including Star Wars ones too. See how that works?

If somebody wants an MMO with good/strong combat they're not looking towards SWTOR to provide that. Plenty of other MMOs offer better combat, group content, variety, etc, than what SWTOR offers.

So then the question becomes what does SWTOR have specifically that other MMOs don't? What are they able to lure people in with or entice them with?

I see what's happening. You are a revolving door story player, and think everyone else is too.

Again no. I do recognize that there are many players who are though which is results in population spikes when new story content is released and then drop-offs when they finish playing through the story. SWTOR has been like that since launch.

Nah, I've been logging for raids almost exclusively for more than a year now.

And how much of the game's population do you think you account for or represent?

Hey here's a crazy thought. What if Bioware/EA isn't really interested in retaining players who are only interested in PVP and Raids and I mean that aside from the continued lack of or little attention those features get over the years compared to other parts of the game or had you never noticed that things like significant PVP devoted updates have gotten fewer and further between as time has gone on. I wonder why that is?

Just because the gameplay isn't keeping you around doesn't mean it's not keeping anyone around.

I'm not saying it doesn't, but there's a difference between gameplay and content that people think is good and enjoy vs content they're used to and continue to play.

It seems to be keeping enough people around to keep the lights on between content drops at least.

And there will most likely still be enough people playing to do that after 7.0 drops.

See what you're not accounting for are all the people who endure SWTOR because it's a SW MMO and will always stick with it for that reason alone. It's obvious that there's a number of people like that who play the game and will continue to ride it out no matter what changes get made as has been evident by the number of people who still continue to play despite all the changes.

See above. I'm excited to get new raids. Yes, that's combat. I don't care what "a lot of people" (i.e. you) do or enjoy.

Right, forgot, you're what's most important after all. What does it matter what else people want as long as you selfishly can get what you specifically want out of the game right?

You don't have any hard facts on that, either.

I have no facts that combat is the same repetitive thing over and over again with little to no variety? When you do raids is there not an exact way people deal with the bosses?

You are literally imagining a bunch of stuff and attempting to pass it off as facts.

Says the hypocrite stating his assumptions as fact to try and validate himself.

Heh. It's becoming increasingly clear that you have no clue what you are talking about.[/qoute]

 

It's not like your hypocritical statements and viewpoints make it look like you know what you're talking about.

 

It took them close to two years to finally scrap galactic command (from early 2017 to late 2019), not two months.

 

I know how long it took and never said it took them two months to walk it back nor even suggested that was the case. I said they walked it back eventually which they did. You can't really walk back something like Galactic Command so easily or quickly given how much it was hooked into everything and I don't expect Combat Styles to be walked back quickly either.

 

When I say walk back Combat Styles I'm talking about them doing it when the next expansion hits not the next time they do maintenance on the game because historically when they've walked back something major like GS it takes a long time so chances are walking back Combat Styles would be similar.

 

Nice framing, but no. It's not "game will die regardless so it doesn't matter if we do this".

 

Yes, the game will die. There's no getting around that. It's ridiculous to believe otherwise.

 

It's more "this is looking like it might significantly harm the game's health, so why do it?".

 

The same could/can be said for not only many of SWTOR's other updates but other MMO/game updates as well.

 

Often times the answer is because they believe it will be an improvement and/or because the devs want to be able to experiment and try things, be creative, etc, instead of doing the exact thing players demand from them at all times.

 

And again, it's not EA making decisions on what resources Bioware pools for SWTOR. That's a Bioware decision. It was a Bioware decision to move people to Andromeda, to Anthem, and now to DA4. Not EA.

 

Got any facts to back up that EA had no involvement in any of that stuff?

 

Lol. The costs of keeping servers running are peanuts these days. AWS, Azure, you name it. One click and you double your throughput instantly. A few hundred subscribers can probably keep those games running.

 

And how many subs does it take to keep SWTOR running or are subs even where SWTOR generates most of it's revenue from?

 

And your own figures show that's not where SWTOR is necessarily headed. So once again it falls to you to prove why SWTOR needs this when even your own figures show relatively stable and respectable population numbers between content drops.

 

I'm not saying they "need" to do this but rather that this is something they want or feel they need to do.

 

"No that's a fallacy" is not an actual argument or rebuttal.

 

It is you just don't want to acknowledge it because it reflects poorly on you.

 

You play the game because at one point it made you feel good and you hope that when you continue to play it that you'll hit those same high highs you once had but you know that will never be the case yet you continue to keep playing it and subbing to it and will blame everybody else but yourself for continuing to do that when in reality you only ever yourself to blame for it and don't want to accept the responsibility of that.