We have many types of content in this game with varying levels of difficulty within them, more importantly the devs I would assume understand not everyone likes all 4 types and therefore the question that is asked, why are people forced through a specific type of content if they want to enjoy power progression, something most mmorpg players enjoy.

1) Open world questing, puzzles and chapters with master mode chapters being the hardest.

2) Flashpoints which go from solo to mastermode

3) PvP which goes from casual regs to ranked.

4) Ops which go from story to Nim

So it is clear that within each type of content there is a difficulty scale which allows for progression to exist within them, one can argue that some content is easier than others and that is true, and if we were to rank those activities ranked PvP would be the hardest activity, solo master mode chapter boss fights would also be quite high in difficulty, so it is quite clear Nim raids are not the ultimate challenge in the game, there's many similarly difficult challenges and even far harder such as PvP.

So why would in 7.0 the devs decide that OPS should give the best and moddable gear while everyone else is stuck with an inferior unmoddable 326 rating?

We ve proved Nim raids arent the hardest content in the game so clearly it isnt because of difficulty otherwise PvP would give 340, why would the devs decide that people who want to progress their character's power should do OPS and all other content is irrelevant? Because my only guess would be they are simply following an outdated design philosophy.

Of course, OPs players love that system and in preparation, here's the common arguments they use:

1) "You dont do the hardest content so you dont deserve the best gear"

An argument easily destroyed by the fact that PvP is far harder than Nim OPs, by their logic ranked PvP should have the best rewards and every other content should have inferior rewards including OPS.

2) "You dont need the best gear"

Again an easily debunked argument once you realize you dont need max gear to beat the raid, raids reward the best gear therefore by definition raiders dont NEED the best gear to clear the raid.

3) "I want my special raid gear progression"

This argument treats the other forms of content as a stepping stone to the ultimate content which in their eyes is OPS, for these players OPS are the only thing that matters and the rest of the available content is just a chore to get to that. This is simply a wrong way to think about an mmorpg because the devs understand that different types of content attracts different types of people, not everyone enjoys all 4 types of content therefore not everyone is expected to do all 4 types yet by locking gear behind one type of content you are telling people who enjoy power progression to do OPS or they dont get to enjoy their power progression anymore.

4) "Gearing is too fast"

That is one of the more reasonable arguments since due to the way gear rewards worked in 6.0, if you did harder content you would be drowning in loot and would easily gear in a couple weeks. That is definitely a problem I can agree with and the solution is obviously not to force everyone into OPS, it is to reduce gear rewards and possibly limit them weekly.

For example let's say you can buy a piece of gear for 1000 currency, and you can only farm 5000 currency per week, and that currency can be farmed from all forms of content, so people who enjoy raids will get it through raids, people who enjoy flashpoints will get it through that, pvpers through pvp etc.

That way, everyone gets to do content they enjoy and be rewarded for their time without ever being forced into content they dont enjoy just to progress their character's power.

5) Less of an argument and more of a historical point, how did most raiders often react when content that wasnt raids gave the best gear and it was content they didnt enjoy?

Many times in mmorpg history PvP ended up having one of the best gear pieces. Did we see raiders argue that pvpers deserve the best gear since it was the hardest activity and it is ok that raids gave inferior gear??

No of course not, they complained that they were "forced" to pvp , hell we can even see in today's WoW raiders complain because they had to do casual activities like torghast!

They believe they are above any other type of content with literally no evidence and complain when any other type of content happens, even by accident to have better rewards than the raids.

So with all that in mind it should become pretty clear that this behavior is pure unjustified entitlement because sadly due to how they ve been treated in other and older mmorpgs, they believe raiders are special and more important than any other pillar of the game, and that is simply wrong and should be fixed by making all content have a path to max gear rating allowing everyone to enjoy power progression via the content they enjoy doing!

So it is clear that within each type of content there is a difficulty scale which allows for progression to exist within them, one can argue that some content is easier than others and that is true, and if we were to rank those activities ranked PvP would be the hardest activity, solo master mode chapter boss fights would also be quite high in difficulty, so it is quite clear Nim raids are not the ultimate challenge in the game, there's many similarly difficult challenges and even far harder such as PvP.

I'm not sure it's really *clear* based on what you've said here, and *solely* on what you've said here. You haven't cited any reliable studies, surveys, or whatever, so your argument is nothing more than an unfounded assertion.

We ve proved Nim raids arent the hardest content in the game

No. You've *stated* that NiM raids aren't the hardest, but you haven't *proved* it.

I'd argue it takes longer and is more difficult for a new GSF player to get good at GSF than any given 5-6 boss Op.

Only difference with Ops is you typically need a set team to do the Op in NiM, and sometimes need one to do it in HM.

GSF will get regular PVP gear drops in 7.0.

As for gearing generally, I'm fairly confident BW will end up changing up how gearing works for most players in the first months of 7.x. The changes very likely won't go over well, and will lose them money. It will take a few months, like 5.x and the original version of Galactic Command.

The class changes, Conquest changes, and the lack of content has me more concerned, alongside how buggy 7.x is going to be. I'm withholding judgement until it releases, but I expect to unsub and probably stop logging in after 10 years. SWTOR's dev team seems to have different priorities than what I'd like to see for the game, which is more content of all types added at endgame. Instead, I'm pretty sure they're going to be porting the game to a non-PC system and selling what they have to new players (again).

We don't see very basic things any longer: story updates at a resonable cadance, a new 8v8 WZ mode every now and again, reasonably-sized open world areas, daily areas or other additions that tie in with ongoing events, etc. While I like SWTOR's FPs, especially the MM versions, 1-2 FPs a year isn't enough to justify a subscription. And a daily area with a story isn't an expansion. In my mind, neither is replaying 10 year old content on a character with access to 2 advanced classes either.

SWTOR made EA plenty of money over the years, and the general trend has been for it to get less and less content each year after 2.x. At a certain point, there just isn't enough being released in the updates to keep a person's interest, and it's been clear for a long time EA isn't going to invest in SWTOR with more of the profits from it. Can you imagine the kind of expansion SWTOR could have gotten with just a small fraction of the money it took to make Anthem?

 

So it is clear that within each type of content there is a difficulty scale which allows for progression to exist within them, one can argue that some content is easier than others and that is true, and if we were to rank those activities ranked PvP would be the hardest activity, solo master mode chapter boss fights would also be quite high in difficulty, so it is quite clear Nim raids are not the ultimate challenge in the game, there's many similarly difficult challenges and even far harder such as PvP.

You arbitrarily made the rankings here for which content was most difficult so I don't think you can say anything is clear at all. Not to mention that in MM chapters, you can bring in a friend to assist- but even solo it is debatable if a MM chapter is harder than a NiM boss like Apex.

And again, not making any claim above that is concrete, but you're entire argument rests on accepting a false premise made by your opinion -not fact based at all.

As for gearing generally, I'm fairly confident BW will end up changing up how gearing works for most players in the first months of 7.x. The changes very likely won't go over well, and will lose them money. It will take a few months, like 5.x and the original version of Galactic Command.

Very likely but it doesnt hurt to give them more arguments against the current gearing system, the problem is it might cause a lot of damage that might not be fixable.

Specifically, like many devs, they understand the backlash and choose to ignore it and on making changes according to their "7.0 strategy" which we obviously cannot be aware unless they are referring to the "risk" code word they used, and again in that case ranked pvp would always be more "riskier" than any predictable pve boss.

I am not saying Devs are wrong to ignore a fanbase if it goes against their intended design, gamers will always have a hard time with change even when the change has rational reasons so you cant just blindly follow whatever the fanbase cries loudly about every time but some choices have more impact than others.

WoW in their latest expansion suffered a huge exodus because they made gear so scarce, and WoW was never generous with loot, Swtor has been very generous, and that change in 7.0 might cause a lot of damage which has me quite worried.

Not to mention that in MM chapters, you can bring in a friend to assist- but even solo it is debatable if a MM chapter is harder than a NiM boss like Apex.

Hence why I put them in the open world/solo category, MM chapters do become a lot easier if done with a coordinated group obviously, and to be clear, I never said a solo MM chapter is the same or harder than a NiM boss.

I said MM chapters are quite high in difficulty, mainly to destroy the argument that "solo content has literally no difficulty and is free rewards", especially because I am sure certain l33t raiders probably havent done Kotet chapter 2 boss fight with a dps class solo and probably blamed the class, but they believe they are deserving of best rewards simply because they do OPS.

No. You've *stated* that NiM raids aren't the hardest, but you haven't *proved* it.

Yes, cuz I am sure you need a study to prove that you that fighting an opponent that cannot be predicted is harder than a predictable predetermined scripted boss. If you need a study to prove you that, there's no point talking but do go on implying a scripted predictable npc enemy can be harder than an unpredictable intelligent player opponent.

PVP doesn't count because PVP isn't content.

It also isn't even remotely static - Even in Ranked I've gotten teams that I can beat solo before.

It's also a completely different formant, and someone being "good" at pvp doesn't even remotely mean they'll be able to handle NiM ops - They're completely different skillsets.

Someone that speedruns a CoD Campaign isn't necessarily good at MP, yet at the same time a top level CoD Esports player is probably not going to be any good at speedrunning the campaign, especially without practice.

This is the same scenario - It's a completely DIFFERENT skillset, and they're not even remotely equivalent to each other.

Top level gear in a game that doesn't focus on pvp should never come from a variable mode.

There's a reason that not only do the vast majority of MMOs have gear locked behind high-level PVE, but almost all MP games, period. Because it's the best balanced content and it's a good way to put a consistent skill requirement on acquiring the best gear in the game.

I'll also just say this, as someone that's done both ranked and top-level progression raids.

It doesn't take that long to gear up.

You're literally complaining about something you can accomplish week 1 if you put the effort into it.

Make like 6 alts of the same class, run the full suite of NiM ops on them, boom, you're done literally until the next gear tier, which usually takes months if not years to come out. Then proceed to do w/e content you want.

This is how I've geared every single expansion and gear tier update I've been actively playing for - I think the longest it took me to gear a char to max was mid week 3, and that was simply because I never played tank and thus just didn't focus on gearing my tank. Both DPS and Heals were fully geared by day 2 of week 2.

We're literally not even talking about set bonuses anymore, either. It's JUST basic gear.

Run 2-3 KDYs per char to hit 80, preferably in a static that has tank/dps/dps/heals so you can speed strat mega-pull, toss your best gear in legacy storage, swap char, grab gear, run w/e NiM ops, repeat until you have a full set. Can do SM raids, MM FPs, etc. on your initial char to get geared to NiM levels. At worst wait until reset to get the 1 or 2 items you didn't manage to get. Done.

Proceed to play exactly how you've been playing for the past 4 years and do w/e content you want.

It's not like NiM TFB actually changes every patch - Just have a static that runs it once/month to keep the mechanics fresh in mind and never have to ever care about gear again.

It's not like this is some new system, either. We've had ops be the only way to get max gear for the majority of this game's lifespan. People were totally fine with it before. It's not like it's actually NEEDED for anything, even most NiM ops are doable unaugmented with semi-trash (Half mix of SM/HM stuff) gear if people are actually good and play well.

And given that PVP's supposedly going to have some kind of stat cap... does it even matter? Like seriously.

Raiding needs some kind of real incentive, this is really the only one that truly works. Spamming dailies on stealthers is a much simpler and arguably faster way to make money to buy w/e crafting mats drop from raids, unless they add new cosmetics most of the raiding community ends up with almost all of them on release month and never need them again, same with Achievements. And it's really hard to get a group together to do something legitimately "difficult" just "for fun" because the majority of people are terrible at everything and thus make it unfun by constant failure.

Anytime a game makes "the best gear" available via basically any method, you just get... "spammer station".

Mindlessly running unfun content because it's the most efficient way to get the gear.

And I'm sorry, but Destiny 1's loot cave was boring. Spammer station is incredibly boring after the 500th run because it's all you get for your daily FP. Mindlessly slapping a dragon that was spawn camped was the worst "gearing meta" FFXI's ever had. "having a choice in what you do because basically anything drops the best gear in the game" just results in "spam the single most efficient and consistent thing, which by default is also generally one of the easiest things in the game, non-stop and do literally nothing else: The Game." ...even if it's not what you WANT to do, because it's the only thing anyone ever actually does, and thus the only thing you can ever find a group for.

I'm not sure it's really *clear* based on what you've said here, and *solely* on what you've said here. You haven't cited any reliable studies, surveys, or whatever, so your argument is nothing more than an unfounded assertion.

 

No. You've *stated* that NiM raids aren't the hardest, but you haven't *proved* it.

Well when it comes to PvP vs PvE. The issues is predictability. See even in the hardest PvE content, it is repeatable. You can learn exactly what the boss is going to do at any moment. Hell a talented programmer could even automate the player side of the fight. It is the same thing over and over. This is true of most AI in video games. The point is to memorize the fighting.

PvP adds in uncertainty. Currently humans are just flat out better at adaption and on the spot thinking than the AI in Swtor. Things change. That's the increase in difficulty you see people mentions. To compete requires less memorization and more thinking on your feet. Seriously I doubt you don't know this. Simple logic proves it. An opponent who adapts is more difficult than one on a script.

The OP doesn't need studies to demonstrate something obvious. They are arguing from logic. Honestly if you think MM Ops are harder than Ranked PvP vs a top tier team, you need to get better at OPs. Another player can a far tougher appointment than the AI in this game or any game.

Yes, cuz I am sure you need a study to prove that you that fighting an opponent that cannot be predicted is harder than a predictable predetermined scripted boss. If you need a study to prove you that, there's no point talking but do go on implying a scripted predictable npc enemy can be harder than an unpredictable intelligent player opponent.

I *agree* that PvP, especially top-tier PvP is harder than PvE content, but your post didn't *prove* it.

PVP doesn't count because PVP isn't content.

It also isn't even remotely static - Even in Ranked I've gotten teams that I can beat solo before.

It's also a completely different formant, and someone being "good" at pvp doesn't even remotely mean they'll be able to handle NiM ops - They're completely different skillsets.

Doesn't matter. Firstly, the skill sets are variations of the same thing. It's the same game after all. The difference is memorization vs adaptability. The boss is Ops do the same thing over and over, players can and do change tactics on a dime. So the idea that the reward for MM Op should be higher because it is the hardest content in the game falls apart here. The cap isn't the issue. Favoritism towards one kind of group content vs another is. We even haven't seen the new Op. IRating aside the mechanics may simple.

Top level gear in a game that doesn't focus on pvp should never come from a variable mode.There's a reason that not only do the vast majority of MMOs have gear locked behind high-level PVE, but almost all MP games, period. Because it's the best balanced content and it's a good way to put a consistent skill requirement on acquiring the best gear in the game.

There are several flaws in your thinking here. 6.0 showed PvP can function just fine with gear coming from multiple sources. So why shouldn't it? Swtor is and never was like the vast majority of MMOs. As to consistent skill requirement, guild carries not only exist but are common. It doesn't do what you think it does it. What it does for most casuals is to encourage them to ignore BiS gear because they can do the game just fine without it. It shortens their gear chase and rams home that the way they want to play the game is less valuable to the game than raiders. They in turn play the game less.

I'll also just say this, as someone that's done both ranked and top-level progression raids.

It doesn't take that long to gear up.

You're literally complaining about something you can accomplish week 1 if you put the effort into it.

Make like 6 alts of the same class, run the full suite of NiM ops on them, boom, you're done literally until the next gear tier, which usually takes months if not years to come out. Then proceed to do w/e content you want.

This is how I've geared every single expansion and gear tier update I've been actively playing for - I think the longest it took me to gear a char to max was mid week 3, and that was simply because I never played tank and thus just didn't focus on gearing my tank. Both DPS and Heals were fully geared by day 2 of week 2.

Yet again, the speed by which you an gear up further highlights why Op gating gear doesn't do anything positive. The raiders who can get it will get it pretty fast. Those who can't won't care. The only thing it's going to do is give raiding guild something to farm and sell runs with.

It's not like this is some new system, either. We've had ops be the only way to get max gear for the majority of this game's lifespan. People were totally fine with it before. It's not like it's actually NEEDED for anything, even most NiM ops are doable unaugmented with semi-trash (Half mix of SM/HM stuff) gear if people are actually good and play well.

How easy Master Mode is as you keep saying just makes my point for me. However, let's address the other part. No the system is not new. 6.0 is out of the bottle and many people prefer playing what they want. Going back is taking something from them. We know they aren't going to start running MM Ops in mass because that never happens, in a MMO. Swtor is going to loose people over this. So why do it?

Raiding needs some kind of real incentive, this is really the only one that truly works. Spamming dailies on stealthers is a much simpler and arguably faster way to make money to buy w/e crafting mats drop from raids, unless they add new cosmetics most of the raiding community ends up with almost all of them on release month and never need them again, same with Achievements. And it's really hard to get a group together to do something legitimately "difficult" just "for fun" because the majority of people are terrible at everything and thus make it unfun by constant failure.

This is the rub. Dark Souls and games like it have no trouble drawing people in for a challenge. The issue is that the entire game is just for fun but MM Ops aren't that much fun for most people. The solution isn't gear gating. The solution is make better Ops. The Wow system just doesn't work that well in Swtor. Again though, gear is not enough of a draw and never have. Most players in the game don't touch Master Mode Ops. The people who are into Ops are going to run them. The majority of players ight touched story mode but that's it.

Anytime a game makes "the best gear" available via basically any method, you just get... "spammer station".

Mindlessly running unfun content because it's the most efficient way to get the gear.

And I'm sorry, but Destiny 1's loot cave was boring. Spammer station is incredibly boring after the 500th run because it's all you get for your daily FP. Mindlessly slapping a dragon that was spawn camped was the worst "gearing meta" FFXI's ever had. "having a choice in what you do because basically anything drops the best gear in the game" just results in "spam the single most efficient and consistent thing, which by default is also generally one of the easiest things in the game, non-stop and do literally nothing else: The Game." ...even if it's not what you WANT to do, because it's the only thing anyone ever actually does, and thus the only thing you can ever find a group for.

This isn't that different than boss farming in Ops and toss carries in there as well. Having to run the same Op over and over again to gear up is just as boring. If it is fast, then like you said you have your gear in a few weeks and forget the new Op.

At the end of the day, the strategy isn't going to work. Gearing gating is not going to turn casuals into hard core raiders. This is going to piss them off and we will loose players over it.

It's also a completely different formant, and someone being "good" at pvp doesn't even remotely mean they'll be able to handle NiM ops - They're completely different skillsets.

Very innacurate and misleading, the chances a good pvper (I mean good, not a metaslave who is simply abusing the fotm to get easy kills) is somehow bad at Nim ops is highly unlikely.

Because it isnt a different skillset, the ability to think quickly and react is a superior form of the ability to just follow a basic script and react to predictable circumstances, which is what Pve has always been.

Meanwhile the reverse is true, a pver is not likely to be a decent pvper because they ll actually need to think fast and react quickly, unlike pve there isnt a "this mechanic happens at X so you do Y" and let's not even include the concept of faking which adds another layer to pvp.

The skills required for Nim pve are lesser versions of skills required at pvp and that is true for any pve/pvp discussion

Because it's the best balanced content and it's a good way to put a consistent skill requirement on acquiring the best gear in the game.

I ve met quite a few bad raiders over the years who believed were great, it is quite funny when you see those players unable to do high end solo challenges without having a healer to save them from their mistakes, or a tank to soak most of the threat of any situation.

Not just here, I wouldnt be surprised if many of those l33t raiders never completed the kotet ch 2 in mastermode as a solo dps, hell in WoW we ve seen world first raiders complain about the difficulty of torghast, cough thdlock cough.

So let's not pretend OPS are the only form of challenge in the game when as I explained, challenging content exists in most areas, but you want to treat OPS as special.

Make like 6 alts of the same class, run the full suite of NiM ops on them, boom, you're done literally until the next gear tier

You seem to be unable to realize, PEOPLE DONT LIKE OR WANT TO DO OPS, hence why people complain about being FORCED to do it else their power progression is gutted. Specifically it is the social barrier people want to avoid dealing with.

And like i explained in my OP, when the raiders are "forced" to do content for the best gear that isnt raid, they complain, which kinda makes it sound very hypocritical and entitled.

does it even matter? Like seriously.

Yes, because it guts the power progression of everyone else other than OPS players, that ruins power progression because you are either forced to do OPS or you are always reminded that you cant have access to highest ilvl gear and you are stack with inferior ilvl pieces.

And dont forget the fact that gear pieces now have static tertiaries meaning they dont even allow for stat customization outside of augments, but of course moddable gear being given to OPS players is ok cuz they are special.

No it is wrong

Raiding needs some kind of real incentive, this is really the only one that truly works.

And it's really hard to get a group together to do something legitimately "difficult" just "for fun" because the majority of people are terrible at everything and thus make it unfun by constant failure.

Maybe if people dont like raidings, developers might start thinking what is the point of raids when they can instead focus on creating content that is actually enjoyed by the majority.

If you have to justify the existence of raiding by locking the best gear behind it, then raiding shouldnt exist.

I dont hate raiding, I find it quite enjoyful but when you argue that raiding needs to be treated special so people are FORCED to do it, it kinda sounds like raiding is wasted resource because only a minority bothers with it and you are trying to get more people into it.

Maybe that time would have been better spend in creating harder solo or small group content rather than something only a minority of players does.

Though the IDEAL solution would be the trust system of FF14

Imagine going into a raid with full on npc allies who are only performing average in terms of dps/hps yet are able to do mechanics perfectly, meaning it would depend completely on you to perform above average numbers wise and do mechanics perfectly to beat the encounter.

Can you just imagine that? I know oldschool raiders would say that is wrong and not a real achievement but the truth is, if you played your role to perfection, you earned it, and npcs solves the issue of having to deal with bad players who keep failing mechanics again and again. Well that is just a dream for future mmorpgs, not something swtor can do but something that we ll see more in the future since it means everyone can now enjoy raiding since the social barrier is gone and it is just another form of solo challenge.

Anytime a game makes "the best gear" available via basically any method, you just get... "spammer station".

Mindlessly running unfun content because it's the most efficient way to get the gear.

That is a problem I can agree with but spamming OPS is no different, people will always try to find the easiest way to get gear if they are allowed to spam, yet there are solutions for that.

They could nerf/buff rewards based on how long the FP takes

They could make each FP reward daily, meaning you would want to do all of them for max rewards because spamming HS wont be an option anymore.

There's many ways to fix such problems, none of which involves forcing people into OPS.

PVP doesn't count because PVP isn't content.

It also isn't even remotely static - Even in Ranked I've gotten teams that I can beat solo before.

It's also a completely different formant, and someone being "good" at pvp doesn't even remotely mean they'll be able to handle NiM ops - They're completely different skillsets.

.

Everybody great at ranked pvp can become great at NiM ops just fine if they so decide. Not everybody great at NiM ops can ever become great at ranked pvp, no matter how much they might want to. Only major deviations from this have to do with chraracter (as in human nature) of the person. - Pvp'er in question might be so toxic or insufferable or short fused than there simply isn't a place for them in a succesfull Ops team, for example.

Plenty of MMOs been build around pretty linear progression. From solo content to group content to Ops to hard mode Ops, each giving gear of different quality. Its a pretty logical and neat path of progression, really. Its just that TOR never truly orbited such world. "raiding culture" isn't super prominent here.This is casual friendly MMO that has huge difficulties in introducint any difficulty to its casual players. Said casual players gotten used to getting full access to almost all of the best gear from doing supremely easy content. Removing this access understandably annoys people.

I'd not mind stuff like "ok, best mods are Ops exclusive!" Too bad it is far more draconian than that. Having sets and moddable gear locked away from casuals? Oof.

It makes sense why they decided to do something like this. Thanks to " all get everything with ease" approach, there's been huge issues in rewarding people from doing hardest and least straightforward content this game has to offer.

Whilst this original post seems to scream "Give me what I want because I want it" the problem exists solely with the way that the gearing is being set up.

MM Ops SHOULD be the top tier of gear you get in the game for PVE Content.

PVP should get its own set of gear.

The rest of the game modes should have a moddable set of gear on a lower tier than the top ranked ops gear.

The only 2 modes that really provide challenge in the game are MM Ops and ranked pvp. And even in ranked it really does depend on who you come up against. Give them back their gear option that they used to have with expertise and people can play in their own sandboxes and be happy.

MM Ops SHOULD be the top tier of gear you get in the game for PVE Content..

As explained in the initial post that is a wrong way of thinking.

The game has different content for different people, yet you see all content bar pvp as nothing but a stepping stone to OPS.

Something a majority of the playerbase doesnt even bother with

The game does not revolve around OPS, oldschool devs absolutely went that direction but many realized since only a minority bother with high end raiding creating the game around something that most people dont bother with, was quite a stupid idea.

So it is clear that within each type of content there is a difficulty scale which allows for progression to exist within them, one can argue that some content is easier than others and that is true, and if we were to rank those activities ranked PvP would be the hardest activity, solo master mode chapter boss fights would also be quite high in difficulty, so it is quite clear Nim raids are not the ultimate challenge in the game, there's many similarly difficult challenges and even far harder such as PvP.[/color]

Every time I inspect someone on fleet who says "PVE is easy" they usually only have EV and KP hm done. I get a good laugh and it is hard to take them seriously. It is not harder, it is different. Some can do it and some can't...or haven't worked their way to that level yet. Trying to pit one activity against another does not help your argument or your cause.

So why would in 7.0 the devs decide that OPS should give the best and moddable gear while everyone else is stuck with an inferior unmoddable 326 rating?

We ve proved Nim raids arent the hardest content in the game so clearly it isnt because of difficulty otherwise PvP would give 340, why would the devs decide that people who want to progress their character's power should do OPS and all other content is irrelevant? Because my only guess would be they are simply following an outdated design philosophy.[/color]

You haven't "proved" anything. You just said it. Saying something does not make it fact. Please link your ops achievements. Are you speaking from experience? Or just speaking?

Nightmare (or master mode) operations are very challenging activities requiring not only getting yourself up to a certain awareness and skill level, but also 7 or 15 other people in order to complete one. Your entire premise is that the two are the same which clearly is not true. If everyone entering pvp maxes out at lvl 200 gear than that is the best gear in the game for that activity. That is essentially what they are doing. PVP and PVE are different activities. Your argument suggests that just because you do one activity it should give you gear that would be considered maximum for all activities. Also, staying with your argument, ranked pvp players will max out their gear (to the maximum pvp gear cap) and then because nim raids are so much easier, ranked pvp players will quickly acquire the new maximum nim raid gear level. Why are you not complaining about how easy ranked pvp players have it in 7.0?

Of course, OPs players love that system and in preparation, here's the common arguments they use:

1) "You dont do the hardest content so you dont deserve the best gear"

An argument easily destroyed by the fact that PvP is far harder than Nim OPs, by their logic ranked PvP should have the best rewards and every other content should have inferior rewards including OPS[/color]

*sigh* Most ops players cannot complete nim content. Why would they love a system where they will not get top level gear any faster than anyone else who will also not complete nim content? Did you conduct a survey to be able to know what ops players are thinking on the matter? Now you say "PVP is far harder that nim ops". Again, post your ops achievements to back up such a statement. We covered the gear ranking in the prior paragraph. Per the dev post "PvP will have a stat floor and ceiling, so players with higher levels of gear will have their gear reduced to the stat ceiling (326). GSF will be awarded akin to the PvP upgrade loop". You can get 326 lvl gear doing ANYTHING in the game, so doing anything in the game will get you the top level gear for pvp.

2) "You dont need the best gear"

Again an easily debunked argument once you realize you dont need max gear to beat the raid, raids reward the best gear therefore by definition raiders dont NEED the best gear to clear the raid.[/color]

Saying something is debunked does not debunk it. I have not seen anybody saying you need max level gear to beat nim ops. The argument I have seen is that the harder content should award the higher level of gear. Staying with your logic - pvp and other activities do not need maximum level gear so why should they get it? They do not need it to beat the content.... Help us understand where your logic is going here.

"I want my special raid gear progression"

This argument treats the other forms of content as a stepping stone to the ultimate content which in their eyes is OPS, for these players OPS are the only thing that matters and the rest of the available content is just a chore to get to that. This is simply a wrong way to think about an mmorpg because the devs understand that different types of content attracts different types of people, not everyone enjoys all 4 types of content therefore not everyone is expected to do all 4 types yet by locking gear behind one type of content you are telling people who enjoy power progression to do OPS or they dont get to enjoy their power progression anymore.[/color]

Clearly this paints a stereotype of players who do nim raiding. Different players will like different content and surprise! Most players like more than just one type of content. Trying to pigeon hole one aspect of the player base does not do anything to support your case.

"Gearing is too fast"

That is one of the more reasonable arguments since due to the way gear rewards worked in 6.0, if you did harder content you would be drowning in loot and would easily gear in a couple weeks. That is definitely a problem I can agree with and the solution is obviously not to force everyone into OPS, it is to reduce gear rewards and possibly limit them weekly.

For example let's say you can buy a piece of gear for 1000 currency, and you can only farm 5000 currency per week, and that currency can be farmed from all forms of content, so people who enjoy raids will get it through raids, people who enjoy flashpoints will get it through that, pvpers through pvp etc.[/color]

I don't remember anyone saying this ever. I remember things like "I am so sick of grinding", "I am so sick of spammerstation", "If I have to do hammerstation one more time I am going to jump off "insert your favorite tallest structure"". So now your argument morphs from "nim raiding is easy" to "everyone gets gear too quickly and we should cut back on gear rewards to everyone". You are aiming to be Mr popular aren't you?

"That way, everyone gets to do content they enjoy and be rewarded for their time without ever being forced into content they dont enjoy just to progress their character's power.[/color]

Everyone will be able to still do the content they want and be rewarded for it.

Max new gear ratings (7.0 gear upgrade caps):

326: This can be obtained by doing anything in game (Conquests).

322: Story Mode Legacy Operations

326: Veteran Mode Legacy Operations

330: Master Mode Legacy Operations

You will be able to stand around fleet complaining how easy nim raiding is while earning the second highest gear in the game. That seems pretty rewarding to me. Enlighten us. How is getting the second highest gear in the game by doing almost nothing not rewarding?

5) Less of an argument and more of a historical point, how did most raiders often react when content that wasnt raids gave the best gear and it was content they didnt enjoy?

Many times in mmorpg history PvP ended up having one of the best gear pieces. Did we see raiders argue that pvpers deserve the best gear since it was the hardest activity and it is ok that raids gave inferior gear??

No of course not, they complained that they were "forced" to pvp , hell we can even see in today's WoW raiders complain because they had to do casual activities like torghast!

They believe they are above any other type of content with literally no evidence and complain when any other type of content happens, even by accident to have better rewards than the raids.[/color]

Where to start here.... So now, in addition to being underwhelmed by how easy nim raiding is, you know the history of mmorpg's and what most "raiders" in those games think. Perhaps I underestimated you. Seriously though, how many nim raiders do you actually know? I have recently done some flashpoints and DvL bosses with some. I've talked decos and decorating with one. Trying to stereotype and demonize part of the player base as the basis of your argument is lazy and has the opposite effect.

So with all that in mind it should become pretty clear that this behavior is pure unjustified entitlement because sadly due to how they ve been treated in other and older mmorpgs, they believe raiders are special and more important than any other pillar of the game, and that is simply wrong and should be fixed by making all content have a path to max gear rating allowing everyone to enjoy power progression via the content they enjoy doing![/color]

Though your narrative has weaved wildly paragraph to paragraph, your main point seems to be that anyone should get top gear regardless of what type of content you decide to do. Why didn't you just say that instead of all the wild assertions and demonizing people who can complete nim operations? It is clear this behavior is entitlement - yours. Where in life (except PVP and congress) can you fail your way to the best stuff? Doing nothing and expecting everything IS entitlement. While I have mixed feelings personally about a lot of 7.0, they are moving it back to where more challenging stuff will reward you better stuff. If you don't do nim raids then you won't have that top tier of gear. Not everyone has 300 rating augments....life went on and continues to go on. Life will go on in 7.0. I'm sure all this is a moot point since based on how easy nim operations are to you then you will be one of the few with the top tier gear.

 

3) "I want my special raid gear progression"

This argument treats the other forms of content as a stepping stone to the ultimate content which in their eyes is OPS, for these players OPS are the only thing that matters and the rest of the available content is just a chore to get to that. This is simply a wrong way to think about an mmorpg because the devs understand that different types of content attracts different types of people, not everyone enjoys all 4 types of content therefore not everyone is expected to do all 4 types yet by locking gear behind one type of content you are telling people who enjoy power progression to do OPS or they dont get to enjoy their power progression anymore.

I've tred to explain this before, but I'll try yet again. Operations rewarding a higher tier doesn't prevent anyone else from progressing their gear in the slightest. You still get higher and higher item rating until you hit an eventual cap no matter which content you do. That cap is just different depending on what content you do. EVERYONE gets their progression. The fact that someone else gets a higher gear tier in no way affects a solo player.

If they capped the gear at the 7.0 solo cap for everyone, would that make the system an inch better for solo players? The only improvement I can think of in that case is that you don't have to be envious, but should we rob players of getting their progression through ops because your ego can't handle someone else having a higher number? In a system where spamming hammer station is the best way to gear there is no rewarding gear track for those playing operations, in this system there is for everyone.

That does not mean I don't see some pretty big issues with the current system. The lack of mods is one, every gear tier should be moddable in my opinion, but at the very least each track's cap should be moddable. Also gear optimisation should be the same across all modes. 326 gear should have the same distribution of stats no matter which content you get it from, rather than this horribly optimised conquest gear they have.

The goal is not to punish solo players by giving them trash gear, but to give everyone a gearing path that feels rewarding and gives them something to work towards. To that end the gear differences don't need to be as they are now. Even if I got a 1% dps boost from my gear, totally negligible in practice, it would still give me something to work towards, something to progress, in the content I enjoy the most. That is something this game hasn't given me since 4.0 released.

First let me say I'm DL'ing the PTS now to test the new gear, but I'll post here what I said earlier in another thread...

Quote: Originally Posted by JakRoanin View Post

First, let me say I appreciate your points. I realize without context the point 'I'm disabled' doesn't really add much to the discussion. Second, let me be clear that I do not advocate any system where abuse would be tolerated in any way. Let me give you some background into my personal experiences and keep in mind that these are specific to me and not the entire scope of experiences by people with similar problems.

 

I have Cerebral Palsy, chronic fatigue, and severe chronic pain issues. Cerebral Palsy is caused by a stroke suffered in the womb, during delivery, or very shortly after birth. In my case I probably had mine shortly before my mother went into labor or during. My brain doesn't send the right signals to my motor control causing among other things... Muscle Spasms, lock-ups, and zero hand-eye coordination. Obviously I do not drive, LOL!

 

How does this effect SWTOR? For me, it means SM OPs are too fast, too chaotic, and too much strain on my hands. I have an amazing guild and I tried to do it, but my hands locked up and the pain became so bad I nearly broke down in tears. Something I assure you doesn't happen often, because pain is a default setting in my life.

 

On a very rare good day I can group for a VET FP but, these can be utterly exhausting.

 

In general even the easiest content can be just plain tiring.

 

The 300+ gear helps me in the following ways:

 

1. If I miss a key (often) I can regroup.

 

2. if my hands Lock Up I can have an extra minute before dying.

 

3. Basic content goes quicker so I can play more and longer.

Remember when base gear didn't provide any real benefit to the SoV FP in SM? It might happen again. The new gearing system terrifies me because now I can't even use mods to boost me.

Everyone will be able to still do the content they want and be rewarded for it.

Max new gear ratings (7.0 gear upgrade caps):

326: This can be obtained by doing anything in game (Conquests).

322: Story Mode Legacy Operations

326: Veteran Mode Legacy Operations

330: Master Mode Legacy Operations

You will be able to stand around fleet complaining how easy nim raiding is while earning the second highest gear in the game. That seems pretty rewarding to me. Enlighten us. How is getting the second highest gear in the game by doing almost nothing not rewarding?

How is getting the second highest gear in the game by doing almost nothing not rewarding? Because it is not the second highest gear. As has been confirmed by both Chris Schmidt in Discord and on the PTS that Conquest gear will be green quality with suboptimal stat distribution. Operations gear will be purple quality with better stat distribution.

Take off all of your accuracy, alacrity, and crit and then go run some dailies or heroics and come back and tell us how much of a slog it is.

The green 326 gear that was seen on the PTS had an overabundance of endurance and tertiary stats that were only slightly higher than 306 gear. Because level sync in 7.0 will be percentages of stats, rather than flat stats like it is now, stat distribution will matter in level sync'ed content in 7.0. If you would find it unacceptable to be below the alacrity threshold for even 1.4s GCD with almost no crit to speak of whilst doing dailies then you understand why solo players are pissed about this itemization scheme.

It is bad enough that we will be locked into static stat gear with 7.0 until R-4 Anomaly is released (which will be the only way at first for anyone to get gear mods), but solo players will be further limited by green quality gear with crap stat distribution. If the numbers seen on the PTS carry over to live then solo players will be better off stat wise to remain with their 306 gear, which means that there is no gear progression for solo players in 7.0.

So enlighten us, how that is rewarding?

How is getting the second highest gear in the game by doing almost nothing not rewarding? Because it is not the second highest gear. As has been confirmed by both Chris Schmidt in Discord and on the PTS that Conquest gear will be green quality with suboptimal stat distribution. Operations gear will be purple quality with better stat distribution.

 

Take off all of your accuracy, alacrity, and crit and then go run some dailies or heroics and come back and tell us how much of a slog it is.

 

The green 326 gear that was seen on the PTS had an overabundance of endurance and tertiary stats that were only slightly higher than 306 gear. Because level sync in 7.0 will be percentages of stats, rather than flat stats like it is now, stat distribution will matter in level sync'ed content in 7.0. If you would find it unacceptable to be below the alacrity threshold for even 1.4s GCD with almost no crit to speak of whilst doing dailies then you understand why solo players are pissed about this itemization scheme.

 

It is bad enough that we will be locked into static stat gear with 7.0 until R-4 Anomaly is released (which will be the only way at first for anyone to get gear mods), but solo players will be further limited by green quality gear with crap stat distribution. If the numbers seen on the PTS carry over to live then solo players will be better off stat wise to remain with their 306 gear, which means that there is no gear progression for solo players in 7.0.

 

So enlighten us, how that is rewarding?

Go ahead and count. 2nd highest gear tier for doing anything, which includes almost nothing. None of the gear will be great at patch. Until they rebalance everything it is going to be messy. It is always messy.

Max new gear ratings (7.0 gear upgrade caps):

326: This can be obtained by doing anything in game (Conquests).

322: Story Mode Legacy Operations

326: Veteran Mode Legacy Operations

330: Master Mode Legacy Operations

Perhaps the perception of solo content challenge is a new player thing. You haven't needed gear for story related content for a long time up until master mode chapters were added. You can literally start a fight and go make lunch while your companion finishes the fight. Hardly a challenge worthy of epic gear. You should have been around 10 years ago to know what it meant to work for your gear.

As the patches are added more options will come to all players. They added this as part of the Q&A.

Q. Can I acquire mats to max gear and mods without having to do grouped content?

A . Over time, as more patches are released in the expansion, you will be able to upgrade your gear more and more, including unlocking the moddable gear vendor.

I am not saying I am delighted about most of 7.0. I question why they basically went back to what they had when the game was launched and moved away from. Being around from the beginning I have seen both methods and handing max gear out like candy to anyone for everything is not very meaningful - but to some it is. To me top gear should come from progressively more challenging content or crafting, but that is just my opinion. I think there could have been a middle ground such as increasing the difficulty on some of the mm flashpoints and mm chapters with chance for higher gear. Or making it super grindy so a solo player could still get there, but had to spend more time versus challenge to earn it.

Bioware is gambling by making this change. We will see if they end up burning themselves like some of their other choices over the years.

---snip---

You know full well that 326 green gear is not the same as 326 purple gear. Since you could not address that disparity, or that current 306 gear is going to be better for solo play than 326 green gear, which completely removes all gear progression for solo players in 7.0, then I take it that you do not actually have anything useful to add about the itemization scheme.

Further, I started playing in 2012. I know full well how solo players geared back then. I also know that the entry level solo gear was purple, modded gear.

7.0's itemization is nothing like the old itemizations schemes. 7.0's itemization scheme is a steaming pile of bantha poodoo for everyone, so it really does baffle me that so many people are jumping up and down to defend it and tell anyone who disparages it just how awesome it is.

You know full well that 326 green gear is not the same as 326 purple gear. Since you could not address that disparity, or that current 306 gear is going to be better for solo play than 326 green gear, which completely removes all gear progression for solo players in 7.0, then I take it that you do not actually have anything useful to add about the itemization scheme.

 

Further, I started playing in 2012. I know full well how solo players geared back then. I also know that the entry level solo gear was purple, modded gear.

 

7.0's itemization is nothing like the old itemizations schemes. 7.0's itemization scheme is a steaming pile of bantha poodoo for everyone, so it really does baffle me that so many people are jumping up and down to defend it and tell anyone who disparages it just how awesome it is.

I have not seen anyone mention how great the gearing is. I have seen the debate back and forth of whether to return to gating the top tier or not.

If you played 10 years ago you would have recalled all the green crap dropping during leveling and then having the next tier gated by flashpoints, and the next tier gated by operations. Plus grinding even more so your companion wasn't crap. You could get some artifact items from heroics, but they were actually heroic then and you actually needed a group to do them. There is no comparison between then and now. They even had to reduce the effectiveness of companions because people were using them instead of human healers. It is just balls out turn the brain off easy now.

My issue is the hypocrisy of calling a portion of the players "entitled" when they themselves want to jump to the very best gear by just logging in.

I tried some of the new gear and you could mix and match to increase stats. It is not optimized of course, but I did not notice any degraded performance from what we have now. We sure will not feel overpowered for a fe wmore patches though.

Just a reminder of the original system where gear was even more gated that 7.0

Gear progression at level 50:

https://imgur.com/a/s55GjDT

If you played 10 years ago you would have recalled all the green crap dropping during leveling and then having the next tier gated by flashpoints, and the next tier gated by operations.

This is not entirely true. You could craft purple gear, even mods. I did that on my second character, every 5 lvls or so i had crafted purple gear to my jugg so he had "up to date" gear. It was the worst mods, enhancements and armourings, typ a if i recall correctly. My artifice assassain could craft purple off-hand..

you could also by rakata implants and earpice for daily tokens on belsavis daily area.

You could also by rakata mods at the GTN. (the god ones)

Years ago, when I first started doing operations, the powers that be introduced focused hard mode operations that allowed for nim tier gear for hard mode completions of the weekly op. This decision actually got me started in doing HM.

Now for some context - flashpoints were rarely worth doing as the gear rewards were too low and vendor trash for anyone beyond the casual. Storymode operations provided 216s, which were at least high enough to justify augmenting. Hard modes normally dropped 220s, and Only certain Nims offered 224. As the gap between 216 to 224 was pretty small, the main motivation for nim then was achievements and challenge. We also still had pvp gear and expertise then.

But as time went on - they made best in slot gear available to everyone eventually. A gearing system was introduced that was criticized heavily (on pts restricted forum) for being so rng based. Most gear was readily grindable and a few key sets were restricted. But ultimately they let the entire playerbase have a taste of enjoying best in slot gear regardless of content.

Now they want to take that away from players. I've grinded out BiS Gear three times, 224s through operations, 248s almost exclusively through pvp and the current 306 with primarily flashpoints and operations.

Personally, I'm not seeing a lot of incentive to do it again for the latest and greatest. The vast majority of the content will still be what I started with and the general player base now can struggle even with basic story mode. If it wasn't for the (now delayed) expansion and potentially missing my 999 renown forever, I wouldn't have resubbed. Having seen what's on PTS, there's no reason they couldn't have announced the delay sooner.

I have not seen anyone mention how great the gearing is. I have seen the debate back and forth of whether to return to gating the top tier or not.

 

If you played 10 years ago you would have recalled all the green crap dropping during leveling and then having the next tier gated by flashpoints, and the next tier gated by operations. Plus grinding even more so your companion wasn't crap. You could get some artifact items from heroics, but they were actually heroic then and you actually needed a group to do them. There is no comparison between then and now. They even had to reduce the effectiveness of companions because people were using them instead of human healers. It is just balls out turn the brain off easy now.

 

My issue is the hypocrisy of calling a portion of the players "entitled" when they themselves want to jump to the very best gear by just logging in.

 

I tried some of the new gear and you could mix and match to increase stats. It is not optimized of course, but I did not notice any degraded performance from what we have now. We sure will not feel overpowered for a fe wmore patches though.

A couple of things here.

I am not 100% sure, but I know we've been able to craft purple second tier gear since at least Makeb. Likely it was before but I can't remember. I do remember modable gear has never been hard to get ahold of. Having not just top tier gear but modable end game being content locked is more restrictive than it has ever been.

If they come out and announce that the purple modable gear that drops from Veteran Ops is craftable, then we will getting back to how it was before renown and all that.

As to entitlement, we are customers complaining that a company is providing less of what we want. Most of us want the gear system like it is now. Complaining that I am going to be given a worse deal for my money than I am now is not entitlement. Entitlement, in this context, is a desire for something you didn't earned. If I pay for the video game, I earned to get the game I want.

In a game full of carries in one way or another, the nobility of group content rings hollow. Farming Op bosses is not so different than farming flashpoints.