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Make Open World PvP great again.


leonlotus

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I've played SWTOR since its first year of release, subscribing a few days after testing. And so it was for many years, my favorite game. I returned about 3 months ago, to play everything I missed, and see if the experience would make me happy. And did. Many of my critics to the Expansions were shriveled up, but that's because I played everything at once. And it is very clear that there will be no content produced in the proportion and quality of those early years. Because quality depends not just on a head and some developers, among other things, fundamentally depends on motivated players. Some content requires entire groups, guilds playing together to make sense, and this can't be limited to WZ or OPs. First because they don't support a "mass" (MMO...) then because it gets repetitive and this is the reason why there aren't many guilds like before playing together. -- So, realistically speaking, what to expect yet? A few possible things. One of them - which could have some impact on the broken economy - is removing LVSync and Flag from PvE on planets. Put the focus on the game itself, and make players buy resources, because they will be busy competing. A return to the model that WORKED. :cool: Simply. Coming with an update pack with world PvP rewards. Are there titles that you need to have killed 1k players? This is impossible today, without incentives for people to do this activity on a daily basis, as many did, running planets in Roleplay and common PvP challenges, dueling, or raiding outposts.

It would certainly bring some players who feel like orphans back to SWTOR.

It would be a good moment, considering that the game has already returned to the old paradigm in the classic script: Republic x Empire.

 

- "TIME TO RAGE!!"

- FOR THE REPUUUUBLIC!

Edited by leonlotus
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Completely agree with you. World pvp is such an important aspect of a healthy mmo. If you guys remember a game called dark ages of Camelot, their open world pvp system kept the pvp community engaged for years, and here's a secret for the devs...it's very easy to maintain.

 

Here's the problem with ur idea tho. Game engine is sus and has been sus since launch. It can't support large scale battles on open world planets...hero engine was outdated 10 years ago.

 

What you might be able to do tho is make instances inside the world's and only allow a certain amount of players in at a time, could be a fix for it idk.

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World pvp is such an important aspect of a healthy mmo.

So Guild Wars 2 isn't a healthy MMO, I guess. It has no world PvP in the normal sense, although I suppose World v World might qualify as a substititute for it. (The same logic applies to ESO, by the way, with Cyrodiil taking the place of WvW.)

 

In both cases, however, the large-battle stuff is in distinct separate maps, and *not* in the main game.

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In spite of what some "PvP'ers" think, open world PvP in SWTOR is definitely not a desired feature. When the game first started you had some 'pvp' servers, and they were among the first to become 'empty'.

Even now there are some 'pvp' areas, such as on Tatooine, that nobody uses except for Seeker Droid quests.

Also, every planet has a 'pvp' instance, which is also mostly empty.

 

The bottom line is that the vast majority of SWTOR players don't want open world PvP. There's little point to suggesting it. 🙂

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The "open world" PvP was most of the time that some high level players hide in some areas where they know single low level players would show up, so they could kill them in 2 seconds. :o Edited by Xhuuyaa
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The problem that used to exist was griefing.

So keep PVE and PVP instances separate - BUT...

 

GIVE REWARDS incentive to go into PVP instances - if people could receive rewards for playing there, there would be reason to go.

Now, nobody uses PVP instances except for when nodes don't show up in PVE instances (like certain things on Onderan missions republic side).

 

And not allowing companions in PVP in Outlaw's den tatooine defeats the purpose when you have such quests as "kill 500 players with HK-51 as your active companion".

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I wonder how many of the players criticizing OWPVP actually played on a pvp server. :rolleyes:

 

Before the merger I had characters on a number of the pvp servers. Like many on the forum I was initially apprehensive about this style of gameplay, worrying about griefers. It did come up occasionally. I remember not being able to complete a minor quest on Alderaan--stealing the medpacs from pub soldiers--because a pub was camped in the area. And yes, there was a fear of being killed by a high level character in bottleneck locations, like the dreadnought on Hoth. The worst was some of the comp missions located in the opposite faction zones, like the mission with Corso to find Jettison on Tat...If you get killed over there you have to start the whole journey over again.

 

But it added a sense of genuine danger that the game does not have on PVE. When I'm at the Dune Sea pubside outpost on Tat and an imp character comes along to attack the champ turrets and guards for conquest/cheevos, I remember being terrified how I was going to get out of there. The solution is not to logout--though i'm sure many of the players responding here would have done that--it's to play the game and have fun, and it was. It was a lot more fun dodging a high level char than doing The Thing That Czerka Left Behind for the millionth time. The Rakghoul Tunnels were particularly intense--if you didn't want to pvp, you had to get in, get your objectives, and get out quick.

 

And it allowed you to do the same thing to other players--I vividly remember ambushing a sniper on Belsavis, same level as me, driving through The Scar. It worked better in groups. One of the best experiences I had was a massive fight on Voss near the Shrine of Healing where both faction respawn points were closely located. Note that for the entirety of my experience on a pvp server, I had not yet subbed, meaning I was always below the max level, often 10-15 levels below since 50 used to be the max for F2P. In other words, I am not some veteran griefer reminiscing about the good old days killing players far below my level, it was the other way around and I still had a good time.

 

Yes, bring OWPVP back again. Better yet, don't give players a choice, make certain quest areas default pvp zones, or maybe even do it by time. The devs have made plenty of decisions over the years without bothering to consult the playerbase--7.0 being a perfect example--and none of the naysayers in this thread have left, so their objections to OWPVP don't have much substance either. They'll grumble on the forum about it, but if it were to be implemented, they would eventually adapt.

Edited by Ardrossan
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I wonder how many of the players criticizing OWPVP actually played on a pvp server. :rolleyes:

I was on a PvP server when I first started playing - my 'clan' was there. When most of the clan left to play other games or go back to WoW, one of the first things I did was transfer to a PvE server.

 

Yes, bring OWPVP back again. Better yet, don't give players a choice, make certain quest areas default pvp zones, or maybe even do it by time. The devs have made plenty of decisions over the years without bothering to consult the playerbase--7.0 being a perfect example--and none of the naysayers in this thread have left, so their objections to OWPVP don't have much substance either. They'll grumble on the forum about it, but if it were to be implemented, they would eventually adapt.

Um yeah. Since 7.x hasn't killed the game, forced OWPVP certainly would.

 

If you want "danger" while playing, just go play Call of Duty or Star Wars Battlefront. 🙄

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I was on a PvP server when I first started playing - my 'clan' was there. When most of the clan left to play other games or go back to WoW, one of the first things I did was transfer to a PvE server.

 

 

Um yeah. Since 7.x hasn't killed the game, forced OWPVP certainly would.

 

If you want "danger" while playing, just go play Call of Duty or Star Wars Battlefront. 🙄

 

This is similar to people wanting more difficulty in the game and being shouted down by players, like yourself, who are all too free to suggest others leave and find some other game because they like not being challenged in any way. Our debate is pointless, the devs will do what they want. The difference is that, as I said, for all your grumbling, you won't leave the game regardless of what they do. Opinions are only worth something if you are willing to stake something i.e "make this change and I'll leave". Instead you claim that others will leave, which is the same as every player group, raiders, pvp, story, roleplay etc thinking that theirs is the linchpin for the game's success or failure.

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I have no problems with them giving incentives to the pvp areas but I am not a fan of pvp, in fact the only time I have touched pvp was once in one character and that was with my boyfriend to get a stupid companion back, but only did that on one character out of 14, the rest ignore that mission.

 

Another suggestion: for those that want to pvp all the time, then open another server just for the pvp players and allow them to go there.

 

Give incentives to the pvp zones, but do not force those that HATE pvp to partake of that and regardless of what some will think, some will quit. I have already watched people I knew quit because of some things. I am still here mainly because of my guild but when they stop so do I.

Edited by casirabit
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The Rakghoul Tunnels were particularly intense--if you didn't want to pvp, you had to get in, get your objectives, and get out quick.

 

I remember trying to play the objektives as a lvl 35 trooper, when a group of lvl 55 sorcs on their mounts came along. One of them one-hittet me instant with his deathfield.

On another occasion I remember some high level sorc healer on belsavis, hidden on a roof in a heroic area. He did not attack, but healed all the npcs until the have killed you.

Most of the time it was just silly. :o

Edited by Xhuuyaa
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So Guild Wars 2 isn't a healthy MMO, I guess. It has no world PvP in the normal sense, although I suppose World v World might qualify as a substititute for it. (The same logic applies to ESO, by the way, with Cyrodiil taking the place of WvW.)

 

In both cases, however, the large-battle stuff is in distinct separate maps, and *not* in the main game.

 

Seems like ur arguing over semantics. Both those games have a mode of pvp besides an instanced objective based game or team death match?

 

To everyone's point about getting ganked, if World pvp was a thing there would be ppl actually fighting the other faction as opposed to being bored waiting to gank lowbies. Gotta have a healthy open world pvp population for that tho, which means coming up with an engaging way of making owpvp fun and meaningful.

Edited by Samcuu
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This is similar to people wanting more difficulty in the game and being shouted down by players, like yourself, who are all too free to suggest others leave and find some other game because they like not being challenged in any way. Our debate is pointless, the devs will do what they want. The difference is that, as I said, for all your grumbling, you won't leave the game regardless of what they do. Opinions are only worth something if you are willing to stake something i.e "make this change and I'll leave". Instead you claim that others will leave, which is the same as every player group, raiders, pvp, story, roleplay etc thinking that theirs is the linchpin for the game's success or failure.

Actually, I'm one of those people who appreciates more 'challenge' in the game, which is why you don't see me complaining about nerfing companions or having 'hard' OPs. People like you need to stick to the discussion at hand without resorting to ad hominum attacks.

 

But, when I want a challenge, it doesn't involve looking over my shoulder constantly for some Sith kid to attack me.

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The game has had open world PVP available since launch. At first it was whole servers that were pvp, now each planet (except starter ones) has a pvp instance. These areas have always been devoid of activity (I used to have many characters on PVP servers before they closed them because you could do all your questing without interference). If you think it needs more incentive to play in those areas, then what really is the incentive you think it should have. Forcing PVP just empowers griefers. "Incentives" have never brought about vibrant play because anyone "forced" into doing that type of content is going to gravitate toward the lowest effort option, like they have done currently with gearing by PVP and GSF.
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Seems like ur arguing over semantics. Both those games have a mode of pvp besides an instanced objective based game or team death match?

For sure, but you ignored the key point in my post.

 

In both GW2 and ESO, the mass "open" PvP mode is in separate zones that are completely separate from any levelling planet. What happens in WvW or Cyrodiil stays in WvW or Cyrodiil, and ordinary casuals who aren't interested in being whacked just for taking a walk(1) don't have to worry about it.

 

A mass-PvP mode like that probably wouldn't work well with SWTOR's Franken-engine, but would avoid the issues that you discuss below.

To everyone's point about getting ganked, if World pvp was a thing there would be ppl actually fighting the other faction as opposed to being bored waiting to gank lowbies. Gotta have a healthy open world pvp population for that tho, which means coming up with an engaging way of making owpvp fun and meaningful.

You seem to have completely missed the point of the "ganking lowbies" thing. Back before the servers were flattened into "servers with instances" rather than "PvP servers and PvE servers", there were endless problems on the PvE servers (which had a "PvP flag" feature(2)) with highbies hiding in stealth groups in the largely effective hope that a lowbie would inadvertently hit one of them with an AoE or a direct attack, and as a result flag himself for PvP so they could gank him.

 

(1) If you haven't read Glen Cook's Garret novels, you won't recognise the reference.

 

(2) At least it didn't have an equivalent of Allods Online's "War Banner". It dropped from ordinary mobs in each zone, and if you had one and used it, you could attack enemy-faction players even if they weren't flagged for PvP. (It also flagged you for PvP, so if there was an enemy-faction highbie around and you weren't in Asee-Teph, you had to be ready to run like (...) to get away.)

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Actually, I'm one of those people who appreciates more 'challenge' in the game, which is why you don't see me complaining about nerfing companions or having 'hard' OPs. People like you need to stick to the discussion at hand without resorting to ad hominum attacks.

 

But, when I want a challenge, it doesn't involve looking over my shoulder constantly for some Sith kid to attack me.

 

Yes, perhaps we could stick to the discussion at hand and avoid conversational gambits like "if you don't like this game go play xyz".

 

Sticking to the discussion, the only difference between the kind of difficulty you want and the kind I want is that yours is predictable: you do an op, you know it's going to be hard, you work out the mechanics and power through it. Yes, my way you have to look over your shoulder. But with level sync you avoid the problem of high level players coming to low level planets to grief.

Edited by Ardrossan
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For sure, but you ignored the key point in my post.

 

In both GW2 and ESO, the mass "open" PvP mode is in separate zones that are completely separate from any levelling planet. What happens in WvW or Cyrodiil stays in WvW or Cyrodiil, and ordinary casuals who aren't interested in being whacked just for taking a walk(1) don't have to worry about it.

 

A mass-PvP mode like that probably wouldn't work well with SWTOR's Franken-engine, but would avoid the issues that you discuss below.

 

You seem to have completely missed the point of the "ganking lowbies" thing. Back before the servers were flattened into "servers with instances" rather than "PvP servers and PvE servers", there were endless problems on the PvE servers (which had a "PvP flag" feature(2)) with highbies hiding in stealth groups in the largely effective hope that a lowbie would inadvertently hit one of them with an AoE or a direct attack, and as a result flag himself for PvP so they could gank him.

 

(1) If you haven't read Glen Cook's Garret novels, you won't recognise the reference.

 

(2) At least it didn't have an equivalent of Allods Online's "War Banner". It dropped from ordinary mobs in each zone, and if you had one and used it, you could attack enemy-faction players even if they weren't flagged for PvP. (It also flagged you for PvP, so if there was an enemy-faction highbie around and you weren't in Asee-Teph, you had to be ready to run like (...) to get away.)

 

Well ya missed my initial point anyways which is that the engine of swtor can't handle open world pvp...see Ilum and the lag fest that ensued. The first post I made here was the suggestion that there should be open world pvp areas on each planet that are instanced, which sounds a lot like what u mentioned GW and ESO do.

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Every server and every planet has a PVP instance that you can live in and kill unsuspecting low level players with your level 80 toon to your hearts content....

 

Only problem is NOBODY likes PVP except a SMALL few. So those PvP instances are ALWAYS EMPTY that is except for the level 80 gankers waiting for an easy kill.

 

PvP = P rick vcs Punk..... the only problem is figuring out which one is the Punk....

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Well ya missed my initial point anyways which is that the engine of swtor can't handle open world pvp...see Ilum and the lag fest that ensued.

Yeah, I totally didn't say this:

A mass-PvP mode like that probably wouldn't work well with SWTOR's Franken-engine, but would avoid the issues that you discuss below.

The first post I made here was the suggestion that there should be open world pvp areas on each planet that are instanced, which sounds a lot like what u mentioned GW and ESO do.

There already are instanced open world PvP areas on each planet - the PvP instance of each planet is like that, capped at 100 players per instance, I believe. Lowering the cap would help against the Franken-engine problem, but might make it hard for players to find each other on an ad-hoc basis.

 

On the other hand, it *isn't* quite what GW2 (not GW1, mind) and ESO do. They have large OWPvP maps with large caps on population, and it's quite something to see two groups of about forty players each going at it. https://i.imgur.com/qCrntfJ.jpg shows the extent to which the "spell effects" lightshow can get ridiculous in mass action in GW2 - it's from early in the game's life, and is only about a dozen players in a normal PvE map (Caledon Forest, if memory serves).

 

The key, though, is that those maps are completely separate from adventuring maps, and they aren't there just for fighting. There are actual objectives, and WvW/Cyrodiil players are expected (by each other) to support those objectives in some way. It would be like, say, setting up an OWPvP activity, with "domination" modes or something, in a planet-sized area (Quesh-sized, perhaps, and definitely not Hoth/Tatooine/Alderaan), with capturable bases, etc.

 

But they'd need to do something about the Franken-engine first.

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Thank you for repeating all my initial points for emphasis 👍👍😂😂

 

Only thing you seem to not understand is when I say instanced areas. I'm not talking about a pvp instance that includes the entire map of a planet. I'm talking about a smaller area within the main map. Kinda like when u go through the green door for a story mission within the confines of the main map but only u are allowed inside that area because u have the mission. I guess that's my mistake because that's called a "phase". Without an engine upgrade that's about the only way to mitigate the lag issues I'd imagine.

 

Finally, just having a pvp instance isn't enough to make owpvp interesting. As I was saying before it need to be fun, engaging, and meaningful and as the OP said, revitalized with rewards to incentivize ppl for playing it.

Edited by Samcuu
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Finally, just having a pvp instance isn't enough to make owpvp interesting. As I was saying before it need to be fun, engaging, and meaningful and as the OP said, revitalized with rewards to incentivize ppl for playing it.

Well, that's the problem isn't it. It's not fun, it's not engaging, and it's certainly not meaningful. And no 'rewards' are going to change that. 🙂

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Well, that's the problem isn't it. It's not fun, it's not engaging, and it's certainly not meaningful. And no 'rewards' are going to change that. 🙂

 

No its definitely not at this point, again this is the op's point it needs to be reworked. So someone who's a creative GAME DESIGNER should be able to come up with a system that checks all those boxes...I mean it's kinda their job right?

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No its definitely not at this point, again this is the op's point it needs to be reworked. So someone who's a creative GAME DESIGNER should be able to come up with a system that checks all those boxes...I mean it's kinda their job right?

No, it's definitely not at any point. 😉

(At least, not for the vast majority of SWTOR players) 🙂

Edited by JediQuaker
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Well ya missed my initial point anyways which is that the engine of swtor can't handle open world pvp...see Ilum and the lag fest that ensued.

 

There were a heck of a lot more players back in the day. These days the engine might be able to handle Ilum :confused:

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