Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Combat styles are death of game

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Combat styles are death of game

Darth-Obvious's Avatar


Darth-Obvious
Today , 03:14 AM | #321
Quote: Originally Posted by ssupercid View Post
Welp, hopefully Bioware rethinks this update.
If you mean rethink it as it not do it, yeah that's not gonna happen. They've already spent too much time on it and it's so much a part of the development build now that they can't just walk it back.

Quote:
This will be the actual game-killer.
No it won't. Even if it's not well received the game will still continue on just like it did after every other bad update people didn't like.

Quote:
If they ruin combat, who will be left?
Because the combat is the best part of SWTOR? SWTOR's combat isn't the game's big draw. It's not something that it does better than the competition out there and when you look at reviews of the game whether it be from players or critics you're not really finding many people (if anyone) praising SWTOR's combat. In many instances it's pointed out as being one of the weaker parts of the game.

Quote:
Maybe their banking on tricking new players and releasing on console, who knows?
Releasing on console would open up the game to a bigger audience but it's very unlikely given the team's limited resources and the mess of code that is the engine. Not to mention if it were coming to consoles that's probably something they would have announced during the 10th Anniversary live stream alongside all the other big news for the game.

SWTOR has its story. That's the one area where nothing else in the genre can compete with it, at least not in terms of production values, but when it comes to things like combat, PVP, raids, frequency of updates, size of updates, quality of content, etc, other games in the genre have it beat.

While it's currently the only Star Wars MMO its not like its the only place people can go to get their Star Wars fix not to mention now that other developers like Ubisoft are allowed to make SW games you're going to start seeing more of them than the limited few EA has released over the last several years.

Voroschuk's Avatar


Voroschuk
Today , 03:52 AM | #322
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
...not to mention now that other developers like Ubisoft are allowed to make SW games....
More than that, Ubi/Massive is going to make an open-world Star Wars game and the reason it's not going to be EA is that Disney people said they wanted to do it "with the right person at the right time" (you can find some YouTubers covering this). So, what can actually kill this game is if Massive will manage to make a super cool open-world SW RPG and everyone will be happy with it and then Disney will ask them to make a new Star Wars MMO. The only thing Combat Styles may cause dying is your nerve cells, but only if you care about it that much.

Savej's Avatar


Savej
Today , 05:11 AM | #323
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
.............


That specific thing you said there isn't true.

Every time I show that to be the case you keep moving the goalposts to avoid admitting fault. "That doesn't count" "If they specifically do X,Y, and Z at these specific times under these specific conditions then they'll get kicked out."

You made a broad/general statement that can be shown to not be the case or not true and again instead of saying "Okay maybe I was exaggerating" you keep trying to fight it tooth and nail.

Why do you feel you can't admit to being wrong about that? Do you think it'll suddenly invalidate you as a person or everything you've ever said or felt?



This is literally not true.

Just one example of her saying something bad about Bioware and/or SWTOR disproves that blanket statement you're making. For exaxmple her saying Bioware was foolish to waste resources on Anthem would be her bashing the company but she woudn't get removed from the creator program for saying that.



Yes, she can and has done so in the past.



If she did that repeatedly maybe but that's not what you initially said nor claimed and I've seen other content creators for other games with similar-sized audiences openly bash the game and devs they're creating content for wihtout any repercussions. Just go look at Warframe's content creators and see how "overwhelmingly positive" they always are about the game.



I already have.



Solely as a content creator and not at all as a fan of the game huh?



And yet plenty of other content creators for other games will openly talk about how bad updates are without getting kicked out of their creator programs.

Content creators like Xam, Swtorista, Kid-Lee, etc, have not always been super positive about the game nor have they completely refrained from bashing it. The real difference is that compared to other games SWTOR only has like 5 content creators. Combine that with the fact that SWTOR updates so infrequently that there's rarely anything to talk about. That's the real reason you don't see a lot of SWTOR hate or doom and gloom from their content creators.

The content creators that exist still enjoy the game and are still making content for it whereas so many others aren't able to stick it out with SWTOR because they either burn out or get fed up to the point where they don't want to make content. Does that mean the creators aren't allowed to bash the game though? No, all it means is that they're either more positive people or there's not enough new information coming out to the point where they have ability to bash the game/company to any significant degree in terms of new news to talk about.

I noticed you also completely ignored the part about how you claimed I agreed with her. Was that because you were very clearly wrong there and didn't want to acknowledge that you made a mistake?
Explain how I was changing the goalposts. I repeated myself several times. Was it the "bashing isn't the same as disagreeing"? LOL! OK... Something else you're wrong about. You haven't "shown" anything.

I did claim you agreed with the article you linked. If you say you don't agree then you don't. You did apparently think her opinion about the new expac is relevant and/or significant in some way; I don't.

This is all coming from you posting a link to a currently or formerly BW affiliated fan-site. Whether or not she was in fact being totally from the heart in her article (for all I know she was), she had reasons to not be. It was the exact opposite of a credible source for a review or for anything, the same as linking to someone's facebook page but worse because (was/is) affiliated.

And again I don't care about other games. I've watched a few youtubers but not the ones that are part of any obvious programs, especially not the ones being critical. All I know is Anthem's affiliate program was different than SWTOR's is even though they're both EA. If you want to post links to videos of people bashing games they had deals with without losing those deals maybe I'll take a look at one or two.

ssupercid's Avatar


ssupercid
Today , 06:40 AM | #324
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
If you mean rethink it as it not do it, yeah that's not gonna happen. They've already spent too much time on it and it's so much a part of the development build now that they can't just walk it back.
A Combat Styles update that doesn't trim 50% of the ability bar would be better. Still doable, they could make choices 1/2 instead of 1/3. Or even do Combat Styles without trimming anything, just make loadouts save your quickbars and "Advanced Class" 'Combat/Weapon Style'.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
No it won't. Even if it's not well received the game will still continue on just like it did after every other bad update people didn't like.
Oh it will continue on but it will be the death of something Core to SWTOR for the last 10 years. Out of all the simplifications this will kill any player who likes a little complexity in combat.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
Because the combat is the best part of SWTOR? SWTOR's combat isn't the game's big draw. It's not something that it does better than the competition out there and when you look at reviews of the game whether it be from players or critics you're not really finding many people (if anyone) praising SWTOR's combat. In many instances it's pointed out as being one of the weaker parts of the game.
Never said it was the best. SWTOR has an average MMO tab-target combat. However, even with Disciplines, it still gives great freedom in the amount of utilities, unique animations, and abilities a player get. Taking this average combat and making it below-average/piss-poor just diminishes play. Anyone not playing just for cutscenes =

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
Releasing on console would open up the game to a bigger audience but it's very unlikely given the team's limited resources and the mess of code that is the engine. Not to mention if it were coming to consoles that's probably something they would have announced during the 10th Anniversary live stream alongside all the other big news for the game.
Well I mean this Combat Styles simplification is Step 1 towards console release if it really cuts 50% out of the quickbars. Without this it would be mostly unfeasible to play on Console just in terms of game design, without even getting into the technical aspects.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
SWTOR has its story. That's the one area where nothing else in the genre can compete with it, at least not in terms of production values, but when it comes to things like combat, PVP, raids, frequency of updates, size of updates, quality of content, etc, other games in the genre have it beat.
Yes SWTOR has good story, but having an at least average combat system attached makes it that much better, without that, what's the point?
Classic 2.x Swtor pls

Darth-Obvious's Avatar


Darth-Obvious
Today , 11:50 AM | #325
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
Explain how I was changing the goalposts.
......

Quote: Originally Posted by Savej
Whether you've seen ppl bad mouth other games on youtube in the past doesn't really matter
Moving the goalposts.

It does matter because it disproves your claims about content creators getting kicked out of a content creator program for bashing a game or the publisher/developer.

Quote:
I did claim you agreed with the article you linked.
And thus lied to try and make yourself look better and me worse.

Quote:
You did apparently think her opinion about the new expac is relevant and/or significant in some way
She wrote an article about Combat Styles. The thread is about Combat Styles. People have linked to other sites/opinions about Combat Styles. I saw that Xam's was positive compared to the negative outlook people had been posting. That's all it was.

Quote:
I don't.
Just significant enough to keep posting about it over and over again apparently.

Quote:
This is all coming from you posting a link to a currently or formerly BW affiliated fan-site. Whether or not she was in fact being totally from the heart in her article (for all I know she was), she had reasons to not be. It was the exact opposite of a credible source for a review or for anything, the same as linking to someone's facebook page but worse because (was/is) affiliated.
It doesn't ultimately matter if it was from an affiliated site or not. You clearly have an obvious bias against it and her and position yourself to be more relevant or valuable of a person than she is.

I didn't post the article to say that it was right and that everybody else is wrong about it like you keep making the situation out to be.

Quote:
And again I don't care about other games.
Too bad because they matter and disprove your blanket statement about content creators being kicked out of creator programs for bashing the games/devs/publisher of the games they're creating content for.

Quote:
I've watched a few youtubers but not the ones that are part of any obvious programs especially not the ones being critical.
So then how would you have any idea whether or not people could stay in a content creator for bashing a game? If you don't have any real degree of knowledge on that subject why bother?

Quote:
All I know is Anthem's affiliate program was different than SWTOR's is even though they're both EA.
The overall framework of creator programs tends to be the same. Specific elements are of course different from game to game but the idea that a creator can't bash the game or company is ridiculous and those details could/would be made public at which point you'd see lots of criticisms and YouTube videos about how EA or whoever won't allow content creators to speak openly about the game/devs/publisher if/when the game is doing something bad.

Quote:
If you want to post links to videos of people bashing games they had deals with without losing those deals maybe I'll take a look at one or two.
Lilliesims has posted numerous Sims 4 bashing the game/devs most notably and frequently in terms of how terrible and/or lazy many of the prebuilt house designs were that came with the expansion packs. She did it so much and so frequently that eventually let her build/design a lot for one of the expansions. She literally got rewarded for it instead of kicked out.

https://www.youtube.com/c/lilsimsie/videos

Rahetalius was part of Warframe's partner program and he would make multiple scathing videos about the game and how the devs were corrupt, etc, etc, and was still allowed to remain in the program. Know why that is? Because no company wants the bad PR associated with removing a content creator from their program for expressing their views.

https://www.youtube.com/c/Rahetalius/videos

I can find multiple creators who openly spoke about games like this and were allowed to stay in the programs. How many do you think you can find who were specifically kicked out of a program for bashing the game, especially given how you apparently don't care or know about other games.

Finally, I posted this all days ago, the thread had moved on and so had you apparently. Why are you all of a sudden bringing this back up now? Had this been eating away at you for days and you couldn't deal with me getting the last word in or getting the better of you?

Darth-Obvious's Avatar


Darth-Obvious
Today , 12:37 PM | #326
Quote: Originally Posted by ssupercid View Post
Oh it will continue on but it will be the death of something Core to SWTOR for the last 10 years. Out of all the simplifications this will kill any player who likes a little complexity in combat.
Because removing skill trees and simplifying companions didn't already do that and people didn't make the same or similar claims about the game dying as a result back then either?

Quote:
Never said it was the best. SWTOR has an average MMO tab-target combat. However, even with Disciplines, it still gives great freedom in the amount of utilities, unique animations, and abilities a player get. Taking this average combat and making it below-average/piss-poor just diminishes play. Anyone not playing just for cutscenes =
And if their metrics, market research, etc, all show that most of the people who play the game or come to the game are playing it for the story?

Is SWTOR's combat and what it currently is any kind of big draw for the game to bring new players in or keep existing new players invested?

It's a pretty safe assumption that people aren't coming to SWTOR for the combat. The people who are currently playing the game that's harder gauge however if SWTOR's combat isn't bringing people to the game and it's not the thing or even one of the biggest things keeping people engaged with the game Bioware Austin isn't going to have to have many reservations about changing it right?

In other words, if the combat isn't what's keeping the game alive, generating money, etc, they're gonna view whatever people they'll upset with this as a necessary loss.

Quote:
Well I mean this Combat Styles simplification is Step 1 towards console release if it really cuts 50% out of the quickbars. Without this it would be mostly unfeasible to play on Console just in terms of game design, without even getting into the technical aspects.
FF14 has a ton of quick bars and is playable on console. FF14 I would say has a pretty busy/messy interface for a console game.

I doubt this is a situation like Star Trek Online where it's PC version had a bunch of quickbars but then the console version reduced it all down to like 3 buttons. In that specific case though you've got to wonder how necessary STO's quickbar set up was for the game if they could simplify it to that degree.

SWTOR has a similar problem in some regard in that it's never done a great job justifying why its combat system is the way it is other than they copied WoW. For example, how many skills are people using when playing Solo PVE content? Generally very few compared to the volume of abilities they have right? Now if the solo PVE content or story is what Bioware finds that a majority of their player base is doing or spending the most time in then it begs the question of why does the game have so many skills, especially to the people who are just playing the story.

If SWTOR can't make that clear or more easily justify that to players then they're doing a bad job with their combat system. Note that WoW and FF14 like SWTOR have lots of skill bars but they do a better job of making those skills feel useful and/or making players understand why there are so many buttons.

I've posted this thread already but I'll do so again.

https://imgur.com/a/Tgt5sF2

https://imgur.com/a/WiLcryg

If somebody hasn't played either game and looks at these two setups and displays of abilities it's easier for them to comprehend why FF14 is the way it is vs SWTOR. At just face value you're seeing the character in FF14 move around more, use more abilities, display a wider range of abilities, etc. The character in SWTOR by comparison seems much more locked off, rooted in place, repeating the same couple of moves, etc.

If somebody starts playing both games though there's a chance that not much changes those perceptions because FF14 still does a better job justifying all those abilities in ways that SWTOR doesn't. FF14 also has a smoother flow of gameplay, movement, transitions between animations, giving it a better overall feel than what SWTOR has and you can say the same about modern WoW vs SWTOR as well which is a shame given how much SWTOR borrowed from WoW's design.

Quote:
Yes SWTOR has good story, but having an at least average combat system attached makes it that much better, without that, what's the point?
Still the story.

ssupercid's Avatar


ssupercid
Today , 05:36 PM | #327
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
Because removing skill trees and simplifying companions didn't already do that and people didn't make the same or similar claims about the game dying as a result back then either?
But they did, the long Post 4.0 became a barren wasteland by how many players left the game. So yes, messing up the core combat system and not rebalancing content will cause another die-off just like those other changes did.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
It's a pretty safe assumption that people aren't coming to SWTOR for the combat. The people who are currently playing the game that's harder gauge however if SWTOR's combat isn't bringing people to the game and it's not the thing or even one of the biggest things keeping people engaged with the game Bioware Austin isn't going to have to have many reservations about changing it right?

In other words, if the combat isn't what's keeping the game alive, generating money, etc, they're gonna view whatever people they'll upset with this as a necessary loss.
However thats just blatantly wrong, Combat keeps the game alive by making sure it's not mind-numbingly boring. Story may be the seller, but combat holds it all together. Good gameplay justifies Story, unless you just want to watch a movie.

Bio-ware takes a long time to release story content and Combat is the main thing people do in the meantime, you do Combat DURING the Story, everything in the game revolves around COMBAT. Endgame gearing is COMBAT grind.

If Combat gets messed up SWTOR will have even bigger ghost-towns between content updates and need to find even MORE new players to make up for the loss of existing players quitting over this change.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Obvious View Post
SWTOR has a similar problem in some regard in that it's never done a great job justifying why its combat system is the way it is other than they copied WoW. For example, how many skills are people using when playing Solo PVE content? Generally very few compared to the volume of abilities they have right? Now if the solo PVE content or story is what Bioware finds that a majority of their player base is doing or spending the most time in then it begs the question of why does the game have so many skills, especially to the people who are just playing the story.

If SWTOR can't make that clear or more easily justify that to players then they're doing a bad job with their combat system. Note that WoW and FF14 like SWTOR have lots of skill bars but they do a better job of making those skills feel useful and/or making players understand why there are so many buttons.

I've posted this thread already but I'll do so again.

https://imgur.com/a/Tgt5sF2

https://imgur.com/a/WiLcryg

If somebody hasn't played either game and looks at these two setups and displays of abilities it's easier for them to comprehend why FF14 is the way it is vs SWTOR. At just face value you're seeing the character in FF14 move around more, use more abilities, display a wider range of abilities, etc. The character in SWTOR by comparison seems much more locked off, rooted in place, repeating the same couple of moves, etc.

If somebody starts playing both games though there's a chance that not much changes those perceptions because FF14 still does a better job justifying all those abilities in ways that SWTOR doesn't. FF14 also has a smoother flow of gameplay, movement, transitions between animations, giving it a better overall feel than what SWTOR has and you can say the same about modern WoW vs SWTOR as well which is a shame given how much SWTOR borrowed from WoW's design.
First of all, 2 comparisons of fighting target dummies is no to way capture the complexity/player agency when fighting multiple mobs or a boss.

That SWTOR player cannot show off Stuns, Defensives, Openers, or Closers which add a whole lot of animations making it feel much more varried.

I assume the same of FF14 but havnt played it, but my criticism for that small snippet is it looks like most of the abilities are just spinning the PC with some gfx, maybe that's just a martial arts class lol.

SWTOR players who can Leap, Saber Throw, Choke, etc in actual combat look just as varied, if not more.

And for SWTOR not justifying it's combat through difficulty, that's the developers purposely putting the Leveling process on ez mode since 4.0 so players are pushed to max level.

Taking away combat abilities to supposedly make it more difficult/justified is in no way an excuse since combat had already been in a balanced state with the current sets for leveling but was purposely nerfed.

Moreover Casuals have always praised this change, THEY DO NOT WANT the combat system to challenge them, and that's why we have veteren mode for anyone who wants originally-designed challenge.

Removing combat abilities will not justify combat, just diminish it and mildly annoy casuals with a slight difficulty increase or notice of flashy buttons being gone/mildly make happy casuals who don't have to go through the so hard effort of not putting abilities in their hotbar that they don't use.

But it will greatly enrage everyone else who enjoyed their class and combat, causing them to leave.

I main a Jugg and PTS changes for mirror class guardian are just terrible.

*Edit- Lol, Sentinel PTS is just as bad.
Classic 2.x Swtor pls