6.0 gearing sucked donkey balls because of the extensive RNG everywhere. (You even hint at that by proposing the vendor for specific mod-objects rather than relying on RNG ones.) 5.X wasn't ideal, but significantly less sucky than 6.X.

 

I honestly don't get the hate for the RNG because we have the Tech Fragment path to get gear. I always looked at the tech frag path as the main path and the RNG path as a secondary path where I might get something good but if I got something I couldn't use I would at least get more tech frags or some mods.

 

I do think it would have made sense to have a vendor take a piece of gear and let me exchange it with some credits and/or tech frags to get another piece within the same set. (i.e. take an extra death knell chest piece and exchange for a death knell bracer).

 

This would have solved the entire RNG issue and it would be a minor enhancement as opposed to gutting the entire system.

I think this is important. Yes, it should be emphatically stated that People who do the most difficult content be it NiM Ops or Ranked PvP deserve the rewards for that skill and commitment. Anyone who says otherwise is unreasonable.

 

That said, my issue with this new gearing system is that according to people who played on the PTS (I couldn't get it installed on my PC. the 326 gear is terrible. If the gear isn't going to benefit story players then things need adjusting.

 

Yeah, when solo gear at 326 is worse than 306 gear, it's a problem.

The worst RNG was for set pieces dropping in boxes, especially in the guild CQ boxes - always got junk set pieces except Death Knell and Tacticians. Other classes/specs? JUNK.

 

I dunno, I liked the Precise Targeter set and the Victor's sets.

I honestly don't get the hate for the RNG because we have the Tech Fragment path to get gear. I always looked at the tech frag path as the main path and the RNG path as a secondary path where I might get something good but if I got something I couldn't use I would at least get more tech frags or some mods.

 

I do think it would have made sense to have a vendor take a piece of gear and let me exchange it with some credits and/or tech frags to get another piece within the same set. (i.e. take an extra death knell chest piece and exchange for a death knell bracer).

 

This would have solved the entire RNG issue and it would be a minor enhancement as opposed to gutting the entire system.

 

Because the tech fragment path was just as RNG based to get the correct Mods, and enhancements for BiS gearing. Getting to 306 itself wasn't the problem, getting BiS mods and enhancements was 100% RNG. 6.0 Gearing was horrible.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Toraak

I honestly don't get the hate for the RNG because we have the Tech Fragment path to get gear. I always looked at the tech frag path as the main path and the RNG path as a secondary path where I might get something good but if I got something I couldn't use I would at least get more tech frags or some mods.

Except that most of what you could buy for Tech Frags, unless you're a DPS Shadow/Assassin (Death Knell), is only worth buying on an RNG path. (Think: the only reliable way to get Apex Predator pieces is to buy them on the rare occasions that Kai Zykken has them, and that's not even close to reliable.)

I do think it would have made sense to have a vendor take a piece of gear and let me exchange it with some credits and/or tech frags to get another piece within the same set. (i.e. take an extra death knell chest piece and exchange for a death knell bracer).

Death Knell is a bad example, since it's one of the few good sets that's available from the vendors in the last bay.

This would have solved the entire RNG issue and it would be a minor enhancement as opposed to gutting the entire system.

You're not wrong, but getting rid of the RNG stuff in the first place, but without gutting the *system*, would have been even better.

To get 326 gear it takes 8 characters accomplishing personnel conquest. Even faster, actually much faster with fps or ops.

 

Then I call it a design flaw too. Conquest is easier than fps and ops. What I think would be reasonable if they insist on progression:

Conquest, story ops and vet fps - max-2 rating blue moddable gear, ops - fastest, conquest - slowest.

MM fps, vet ops, GSF and unranked PVP - max-1 rating purple moddable gear, ops faster than fps (I would stop here and be satisfied).

MM ops and ranked PVP - max rating gold gear.

 

Well, that's up to you. For me, 6.0 definitely destroyed any kind of "anticipation", because accomplishing ops awards nothing valuable of any sort. That's why I haven't raided in 2 years and frankly, next to all raiders I know have quit the game early on 6.0.

 

The biggest exodus happened around 5.0 I believe. And most of those raiders won't come back. Those who will come back will see that they get one new ops and quit after gearing up and mastering it because there will be nothing for them to do.

I don't even want to entertain the thought that their plan was to turn casuals into raiders because come on, it's not going to happen and I would not expect BW to be so out of touch with their own game and community.

 

(Think: the only reliable way to get Apex Predator pieces is to buy them on the rare occasions that Kai Zykken has them, and that's not even close to reliable.)

 

Wrong. You were meant to get it from MM Duxun operation. So now this is the only way you can get good gear in the game. No RNG, no Zyken, only MM ops.

Edited December 5, 2021 by juliushorst

The problem with pvp gear is unmodable stats. A stat cap didn't matter to pvp. It's where those stat points are put. Right now certain classes can hit break points others can't because of where the stat points are on non modable gear. Simple fix give a stat pool for pvp to assign whever and do away with gearing for pvp. Frankly we don't pvp for gear. Gear is just used

to be put on a level playing field.

Edited December 5, 2021 by TmoneyTime

I understand all the complaints listed here by everyone. Yet with all this taken into account, still, 50% of the people I encounter and talk about these specific changes to the loot system find them appealing. And not just the "I'm okay with it" type of response, but more towards the "Jesus Christ they are finally scrapping the 6.0 **** and finally making different tiers of gear from different activities." Honestly, I usually tend to see what exactly will be happening when the expansion comes out to throw out my opinion on new gearing systems. From what I've read, I don't find it that unappealing myself. But maybe when actually experimenting with it, I'll find out the error of my thinking.

My god, is it so hard to realize the basics of the compulsion loop?

 

What loop? the one that was proven to never work because casuals choose to leave a game rather than be forced to raid for decent gear?

 

Countless games including WoW has been desperately trying to make casuals raids yet it continuously fail because casuals often choose to leave rather than stay in a game where all the decent gear rewards are locked behind raiding.

The only people you are hooking are raidloggers which would raidlog anyway and they are a minority.

 

If your entire strategy is aimed at a minority of players that cant keep the game alive financially, it is a terrible design philosophy.

 

Stop moving the goalposts Sareth.

 

1) You DON'T need the best gear to clear NiM raids.

 

2) You DON'T spend the most time in your activity, that would be crafters or PvPers.

 

3) You DON'T spend the most money, that would be crafters. (By a WIDE margin)

 

4) You DON'T participate in the "most difficult" activity, that would be PvPers.

 

So tell me again why raiders "deserve" the best gear?

That is how the truth is revealed, when all the excuses are debunked you are realize this is about them having access to the best gear and everyone having inferior gear thus feeling special due to that fact.

 

Obviously nobody can admit that, even consciously for a decent person so they have to invent ways to justify this feeling without openly saying the reason, even to themselves, which is why we had so many flimsy and easy to debunk excuses about them deserving the best gear and how everyone else doesnt and how this is totally not about them.

 

The truth is when someone says they dont like that others get to have the same gear rating as them, there's an issue here because they care a lot about what others have, and the only reason to care is because it destroys their feeling of being special.

Edited December 5, 2021 by ralphieceaser

Stop moving the goalposts Sareth.

 

1) You DON'T need the best gear to clear NiM raids.

 

2) You DON'T spend the most time in your activity, that would be crafters or PvPers.

 

3) You DON'T spend the most money, that would be crafters. (By a WIDE margin)

 

4) You DON'T participate in the "most difficult" activity, that would be PvPers.

 

So tell me again why raiders "deserve" the best gear?

 

I already addressed every single one of those, i'm not moving goal post lol.

 

1) Nobody needs it, its a reward for completing challenging content that helps with challenging content. It is a crucial part of progression and invites others to attempt it.

2) Time spent doing menial stuff isn't the same as time spent busting your bum. Already addressed ranked pvp getting the best rewards.

3) Are you actually a crafter? I am.. I make 4X the amount through crafting than I spend on it, you're doing something wrong.

4) pvp is not the most challenging, you can literally just get points for queueing up and playing half-booty, it takes what 15 mins you got 50/50~ chance of winning or losing and you queue up for another one. You get tokens just for playing. Same can't be said about nim ops. it requires much more time, takes hours to complete instead of minutes, it requires a bigger team and people making their schedules meet. It requires more coordination and usually comms. Solo queue ranked requires none of this, and not near as much effort. And like I've said I've already addressed all these questions, ranked players do in fact get the best rewards out of the whole game. You keep repeating stuff that I've already countered, please go back and read what I said.

Edited December 5, 2021 by SaerethDL

But does the new 326 gear have to be utter bantha dung?

What loop? the one that was proven to never work because casuals choose to leave a game rather than be forced to raid for decent gear?

 

Countless games including WoW has been desperately trying to make casuals raids yet it continuously fail because casuals often choose to leave rather than stay in a game where all the decent gear rewards are locked behind raiding.

The only people you are hooking are raidloggers which would raidlog anyway and they are a minority.

 

If your entire strategy is aimed at a minority of players that cant keep the game alive financially, it is a terrible design philosophy.

 

 

That is how the truth is revealed, when all the excuses are debunked you are realize this is about them having access to the best gear and everyone having inferior gear thus feeling special due to that fact.

 

Obviously nobody can admit that, even consciously for a decent person so they have to invent ways to justify this feeling without openly saying the reason, even to themselves, which is why we had so many flimsy and easy to debunk excuses about them deserving the best gear and how everyone else doesnt and how this is totally not about them.

 

The truth is when someone says they dont like that others get to have the same gear rating as them, there's an issue here because they care a lot about what others have, and the only reason to care is because it destroys their feeling of being special.

 

Putting your fingers in your ears and screaming LA-LA-LA doesn't mean you're right. I have already addressed his concerns repeatedly, and have been given no counter to them. Asking the same questions over and over again doesn't mean you're right.

Edited December 5, 2021 by SaerethDL

But does the new 326 gear have to be utter bantha dung?

So people who have 330-334 can feel special, if 326 was just 1% away from 334 they would hate that because it would mean that number is meaningless since they dont have unfair gear advantages over everyone else.

 

Hence why max gear ilvl should ALWAYS be attainable by everyone and through multiple ways rather than locking it away behind one specific type of content.

Edited December 5, 2021 by ralphieceaser

So people who have 330-334 can feel special, if 326 was just 1% away from 334 they would hate that because it would mean that number is meaningless since they dont have unfair gear advantages over everyone else.

 

Hence why max gear ilvl should ALWAYS be attainable by everyone and through multiple ways rather than locking it away behind one specific type of content.

 

Man you sure do hate raiders with a passion, I'm starting to ask myself what raiders have done to you, must have been pretty horrific.

Edited December 5, 2021 by SaerethDL

To get 326 gear it takes 8 characters accomplishing personnel conquest. Even faster, actually much faster with fps or ops.

 

 

That will take 3 weeks with the CQ limits. Are you sure it's 3 weeks though? Someone on PTS did the math and it was 6...

 

With ops/FPs, even if there are limits, you still get a piece of gear in the end, so it would probably be faster if you ran a lot of them.

I think this is important. Yes, it should be emphatically stated that People who do the most difficult content be it NiM Ops or Ranked PvP deserve the rewards for that skill and commitment. Anyone who says otherwise is unreasonable.

 

That said, my issue with this new gearing system is that according to people who played on the PTS (I couldn't get it installed on my PC. the 326 gear is terrible. If the gear isn't going to benefit story players then things need adjusting.

 

I can agree here, the gear may need to be adjusted.

I admit I'd be happy if I could go... 326, 326,326, 326 at least I'd know I was actually improving!

My god, is it so hard to realize the basics of the compulsion loop? There is a reason why ALL of the MMORPGs are following it, and it has nothing to do with raiders - it's all about getting the highest neurochemical reward.

Anticipation->Action->Reward. And SWTOR is no exception to it: the game has essentially 3 difficulty modes: story, hard, nightmare.

The problem is that there is only one type of content that has the highest difficulty - ops. Thus only one type of person is eligible for the highest kind of reward - raider. Story mode ops award you the first tier of the current end game gear so that you could progress to hard mode. By progressing harder difficulty ops you get even better gear so that you could take on the highest difficulty. Completion of each cycle award you that pesky dopamine.

And it's exactly how it should be: if you don't bother spending countless hours wiping on the hardest content in the game - why on Earth should you get the best gear for no reason?

 

Yup simple concept really, the problem here I think is that bioware has given them a sense of entitlement with 6.0, where they feel they should be given the same participation trophy as everyone else, and now bioware has taken that away they aren't liking it, they don't want to go back to the old ways, which in a sense is understandable but not from a business sense, their 6.0 progression failed them, it likely shows in their metrics that we can't see. People will get used to 7.0 or they will leave, bioware will be the first to know the actual statistics, not us.

He never does. He just keeps regurgitating the same talking points over and over again.

 

 

 

You're wasting your time dude. Concepts such as risk vs reward are completely foreign to him. In his world, players who do nothing more than popping in and playing easy content should get the same rewards as groups doing hard content that has an actual possibility of failure.

 

Yeah I started seeing this a few pages back.. I guess I'm just bored enough to entertain him for now lol.

Yeah I started seeing this a few pages back.. I guess I'm just bored enough to entertain him for now lol.

 

I love the part where he keeps mentioning WOW, a game that was the MMO king forever and only recently lost the spot due to the sexual harrassment suit and the bad press that came with it . He actually thinks that all the streamers and content creators, along with their audience, just picked up and left because they finally decided that after 16 years they no longer liked the gearing system. I guess all those players I saw in game doing protests didn't realize the REAL reason they were angry and neither did all the people that left RIGHT AFTER IT ALL WENT DOWN. That's the REAL reason oribos became a ghost town so quickly...The gearing philosophy that has been in the game from the very start.

 

Delusions of grandeur indeed.

Edited December 6, 2021 by oslek

What is the genuine appeal of this notion of "progression" in an Op? I am genuinely puzzled at Raiders fascination with this desire to fail to accomplish an objective--possibly repeatedly--and referring to this as "progressing" through content. Especially when you can only run a single Op to get it? At least under 6.0, you had a choice of anything to run to get better gear.

 

Any content is at its most difficult when it is first run, after each subsequent run, player's performance should improve each time; after a couple runs on a particular mode, any content should be quite simplistic to run once the player learns how NPC enemies behave on attack and defense and should have deduced tactics to employ against them. The only difference on each run is the quality of the team you have with you. A team of vets will typically fare far better than a pug because the vet players know how their individual playstyles and how they mesh collectively. How soon will it be before the R4 Op turns into mindless button mashing? After a half dozen runs on each mode?

So people who have 330-334 can feel special, if 326 was just 1% away from 334 they would hate that because it would mean that number is meaningless since they dont have unfair gear advantages over everyone else.

 

Hence why max gear ilvl should ALWAYS be attainable by everyone and through multiple ways rather than locking it away behind one specific type of content.

 

I agree, why I wished they approached it more like this!

 

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

I'm OK they removed RENOWN, despite it will produce far less drops of Gear each week; especially Higher Level.

 

Really wished they would revise Weekly Missions to include (only) 75 - 80 newest Content!

╘ then at least offer one Item Level appropriate Gear Crate for each weekly done.

 

♫ It also allow QUEUE to focus players on more the RECENT 75-80 content, could still Queue for older stuff tho...

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

 

There's just going to be too little 80 Level Content at first, that will allow progression especially with Renown gone!

 

What is the genuine appeal of this notion of "progression" in an Op?

...

Especially when you can only run a single Op to get it? At least under 6.0, you had a choice of anything to run to get better gear.

 

Any content is at its most difficult when it is first run, after each subsequent run, player's performance should improve each time; after a couple runs on a particular mode...

 

How soon will it be before the R4 Op turns into mindless button mashing? After a half dozen runs on each mode?

 

Yea, it's why I think they went way overboard with how they are approaching this thing with 80. Hence the suggestion I made above! That wouldn't be so bad, and give each character a bit more to do; with a focus on more recent content too!

Edited December 6, 2021 by Strathkin

What is the genuine appeal of this notion of "progression" in an Op? I am genuinely puzzled at Raiders fascination with this desire to fail to accomplish an objective--possibly repeatedly--and referring to this as "progressing" through content. Especially when you can only run a single Op to get it?

I don't think it's a fascination with failing. It's a fascination with achieving a difficult goal.

 

Any content is at its most difficult when it is first run, after each subsequent run, player's performance should improve each time after a couple runs on a particular mode, any content should be quite simplistic to run once the player learns how NPC enemies behave on attack and defense and should have deduced tactics to employ against them. The only difference on each run is the quality of the team you have with you. A team of vets will typically fare far better than a pug because the vet players know how their individual playstyles and how they mesh collectively. How soon will it be before the R4 Op turns into mindless button mashing? After a half dozen runs on each mode?

 

Usually once you've done it once, it becomes second nature.

 

I haven't done a group op since release, but in WOW I kept at it until I cleared normal mode and then I stopped. I had no interest in running the same content over again even at a higher level. Once I've seen the content once on my character I'm done. But that's me.

Edited December 6, 2021 by oslek

I honestly don't have any issue if people doing MM Ops get gear faster. That's fair! However, it truly galls me that I'm gonna be stuck with bantha gear for an undefined time. They haven't explained how the gear improves for story players.

 

Suppose it takes me 6 weeks to gear a toon to 326 I have 10 toons so if I have no major health hic-ups {I don't hold my breath for that} it'll probably take me six months if I really work at it. Ok fine, but then what? I'm stuck with bantha gear unitl I get 228? Do I have to deal with bantha this whole expansion?

Man you sure do hate raiders with a passion, I'm starting to ask myself what raiders have done to you, must have been pretty horrific.

 

Yeah..this guy really really really hates raiders. Outside of calling all of us spoiled rotten babies who potentially eat babies he also is upset about groups selling runs to which he BiS gear is really for. Nigtmare raiders are the swtor version of "the coporate overlords".

 

He doesn't want to understand, or accept, that his ideas are not 100 percent facts as he wishes them to be. He continually quotes WoW as the primary example of why BiS for top end content is an outdated philosophy yet ignroes that FF14 has 22 million players and is...you guessed it...primarily a raiding game.

 

He doesn't want to understand, or accept, that nightmare raiders don't give two hoots if someone "beneath" us can acquire gear. We are simply pointing out that being really upset about not being able to get BiS gear for solo play will not negatively affect their experience. Which is absolutely true. It doesn't matter at all that NiM raiders don't need the gear either.

 

He just REALLY wants to trash the nightmare raiding crowd as best he can. His reasons are his own. But, as I watch his assault daily I just laugh at him. He's become the clown of the forum.

 

Speaking of gearing systems this is what I would love to see:

 

The daily areas (all of them) get updated vendors that sell the PvE base gear (green, blue, purple or whatever color who cares as long as its upgraded), and crafting schematics for mods enhancements armorings etc. and you unlock it via reputation and credits. This gear helps you clear the next tier of content (vet fps, vet uprisings if you have green or blue, story mode operations for purple). Story mode operations drop tech frags and one actual unassembled piece per boss that everyone rolls on and this gear is gold moddable, and gear to clear hard mode operations and master mode flashpoints. In hard mode its rinse repeat except the gear is for nightmare. In nightmare you get exclusive titles, mounts, gear sets, weapon sets, color crystals, pets, companion unlocks, dyes, decorations, and materials for nightmare crystals (so that content becomes easier as they progress and clear as well as being able to really anger that guy who hates sales runs). Tech frags can drop from...everything still...so that there's a buffer and people can all get to their desired level.

 

PvP would have two vendors who sold specifically PvP gear. Moddable. Ranked still has Girradda's rewards etc.

 

That's what I would love to see.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Shwarzchild