I've found reasons to defect. My extremely selfish DS smugglers wanted to defect so that they could do whatever they want without Republic scrutiny. They figure that the Empire is easier to deal with on that part, and its officials easier to manipulate/blackmail/bribe. Both of them were pretty disappointed to end up double agents, I can tell you that. NOT what they had in mind for joining the Empire.

The Smuggler is the only Republic class I would want to defect on and could see working for the same reasons you've given. The only reason I've not had an alt do it are the romance options. Neither Corso or Theron would be cool with it, (if we're ever able to properly switch sides) and a DS smuggler would not let Arcann live. They really should have let Skavak live! He would have been all over defecting with my smuggler (not too late to resurrect Skavak for my Smugglers BW - you did it for Malgus after all. And Zash who was supposed to be gone forever). If they do go further with the saboteur storyline and let people defect, I'll be unlocking more characters slots for a saboteur Smuggler.

The Smuggler is the only Republic class I would want to defect on and could see working for the same reasons you've given.

Tbh you could argue merc works the same way, just takes contracts and is distant from the empire but the truth is in the story you end up being pretty close with the empire, and even then as a non force user you are still seen as subservient to the Sith since there's no real non force users in high places, the dark council is completely force user based and they control the empire.

Main reason i cannot stick to the empire with any non force using characters

I've found reasons to defect. My extremely selfish DS smugglers wanted to defect so that they could do whatever they want without Republic scrutiny. They figure that the Empire is easier to deal with on that part, and its officials easier to manipulate/blackmail/bribe. Both of them were pretty disappointed to end up double agents, I can tell you that. NOT what they had in mind for joining the Empire.

 

My DS Jedi, it was easy, apart from the consular one who still thinks that Jedi (and her, obviously) are better than eveyrone else, they just wanted to be allowed to do what they want without the Masters raining on their parade.

 

The DS trooper got pissed off at the Republic for being hypocrites, with what happened in the story, the Jorgan sub stories, and Saresh.

 

For the other side, I have a couple of LS Sith who just want to follow the light and are tired of Sith BS (but also some LS Sith who are still loyalist, want to change the Empire from within etc).

 

You can really play it in a lot of different ways, but yeah, unfortunately being a double agent doesn't fit what their intent was 90% of the time.

Sure, I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't play some pub characters that could desire to defect, just that I haven't really been interested in playing anyone that's DS, or republican critic I suppose, enough to defect.

My most militant Trooper, propably very similarly to Jorgan I suspect, still prefers republic bureaucracy and hypocrisy to subservience to the whims of the Sith and like I said my neutral Smuggler, who was not above hitting reublican targets, doesn't think the Empire offers anymore freedoms than the republic, if anything her preferece would just be to skirt the boundairy of the two powers and take what she could get while they fought, pressed to choose between them she prefers the republic though.

Have to admit that I've never been able to play a DS Jedi character, I just don't find their vanilla stories supports that route very well, it feels like you're still playing a mostly LS story while you do bad things here and there. So I prefer to be boringly traditional with my Jedi.

Tbh you could argue merc works the same way, just takes contracts and is distant from the empire but the truth is in the story you end up being pretty close with the empire, and even then as a non force user you are still seen as subservient to the Sith since there's no real non force users in high places, the dark council is completely force user based and they control the empire.

 

Main reason i cannot stick to the empire with any non force using characters

I've had no problem defecting/saboteuring on Agents, Warriors, BHs or Inquisitors. My problem is defecting from Republic/Jedi to Empire/Sith. The only Republic class that suits being a saboteur/defector is the Smuggler imo. A dark knight might but I didn't take the option.

 

Have to admit that I've never been able to play a DS Jedi character, I just don't find their vanilla stories supports that route very well, it feels like you're still playing a mostly LS story while you do bad things here and there. So I prefer to be boringly traditional with my Jedi.

I could not possibly agree more with this. Jedi class stories just feel so silly to me as a DS character. I can't ever get through them, I find them too dumb haha

I could not possibly agree more with this. Jedi class stories just feel so silly to me as a DS character. I can't ever get through them, I find them too dumb haha

Oh DS Knight is so much more fun IMO...

Oh DS Knight is so much more fun IMO...

Glad you enjoyed it, I never have. I just don't buy the concept. Each to their own.

I could not possibly agree more with this. Jedi class stories just feel so silly to me as a DS character. I can't ever get through them, I find them too dumb haha

I don't know that I necessarily feel they are dumb myself, rather I feel like the story itself doesn't really do enough to differentiate a lot between a LS and DS Jedi, for both classes, besides isolated choices and the lack of cameos when you happen to cause an optional death here and there.

In the Sith stories being LS is much better integrated as a running theme, so much so that for the Warrior you really feel like you are a secret hero hiding amongst the villains, all the while you continously surprise the republicans you encounter and you can even influence a whole companion's alignments, plus Malavai Quinn also comes off as a more shrewd individual. If you could have influenced Ashara, as it had seemingly been intended originally, LS Inquisitor would have a + point there too.

I don't know that I necessarily feel they are dumb myself, rather I feel like the story itself doesn't really do enough to differentiate a lot between a LS and DS Jedi, for both classes, besides isolated choices and the lack of cameos when you happen to cause an optional death here and there.

 

In the Sith stories being LS is much better integrated as a running theme, so much so that for the Warrior you really feel like you are a secret hero hiding amongst the villains, all the while you continously surprise the republicans you encounter and you can even influence a whole companion's alignments, plus Malavai Quinn also comes off as a more shrewd individual. If you could have influenced Ashara, as it had seemingly been intended originally, LS Inquisitor would have a + point there too.

100% agree, I thought I wouldn't enjoy LS Warrior for exactly the reasons I dislike DS Knight, not buying the concept, but nope, they did that fantastically well imo. I really enjoyed it in the end. LS Inquisitor isn't bad either, but yeah, coulda been better with an influencable Ashara

100% agree, I thought I wouldn't enjoy LS Warrior for exactly the reasons I dislike DS Knight, not buying the concept, but nope, they did that fantastically well imo. I really enjoyed it in the end. LS Inquisitor isn't bad either, but yeah, coulda been better with an influencable Ashara

The story focus also differ somewhat between the Warrior and the Inquisitor.

The Inquisitor's story is about the accumulation of power and the prize it requires, a moe outwards-seeking kind of story, while the Warrior story is a more direct look into the intricacies of Sith political workings, plus a journey that takes a more inwards look at the character's role in the Sith hiearchy.

Anyway, we're getting this off topic

DK Knight works if they are more of a twisted Lawful Good person with a twisted view to the Jedi Code.

Like this kill scene:

It's honestly more disturbing than any Sith kill and torture scene because the Jedi Knight snapped that NPC's neck like it's nothing. A Sith will be "lol look at me zapping people for fun" "I kill whoever the **** I want" because they recognize other people, however low they are, are still people. But the Jedi Knight didn't brag because isn't it stupid to be smug about squashing an annoying bug? They have more important thing to do, like the mission to save the universe from the True Evil. They would be a religious zealot who thinks they are the Righteous One and that's honestly very scary.

DK Knight works if they are more of a twisted Lawful Good person with a twisted view to the Jedi Code.

 

Like this kill scene:

 

It's honestly more disturbing than any Sith kill and torture scene because the Jedi Knight snapped that NPC's neck like it's nothing. A Sith will be "lol look at me zapping people for fun" "I kill whoever the **** I want" because they recognize other people, however low they are, are still people. But the Jedi Knight didn't brag because isn't it stupid to be smug about squashing an annoying bug? They have more important thing to do, like the mission to save the universe from the True Evil. They would be a religious zealot who thinks they are the Righteous One and that's honestly very scary.

I just don't see how or why the Jedi would allow such an obviously evil person in their Order.. It's not like this behaviour would remain hidden. And I never buy the whole "well they are powerful so the Jedi deal with it" excuses. THAT Jedi would never have made it to Tython to begin with, theyd have gotten sent off to the farm colonies like the dude who couldn't lift the rock... They clearly don't understand the code. But we can't be punished for any of this like any other character would, because we are the untouchable one? Just doesn't make sense to me. The Jedi never tolerate that kind of outward cruelty in other situations, that's why I don't buy this one.

I just don't see how or why the Jedi would allow such an obviously evil person in their Order.. It's not like this behaviour would remain hidden. And I never buy the whole "well they are powerful so the Jedi deal with it" excuses. THAT Jedi would never have made it to Tython to begin with, theyd have gotten sent off to the farm colonies like the dude who couldn't lift the rock... They clearly don't understand the code. But we can't be punished for any of this like any other character would, because we are the untouchable one? Just doesn't make sense to me. The Jedi never tolerate that kind of outward cruelty in other situations, that's why I don't buy this one.

Warning, some spoilers for JK below:

Sometimes it's the necessity of war. The JK is one of their greatest and most powerful weapons on the frontlines and later on their only hope to defeat the Emperor. They have the choice of muzzling you and by that risk that the Emperor wins or turn a blind eye for now and deal with this later. And I don't think you can ever be outright cruel in front of the Jedi Council. It's not as if they know everything you do. The only thing they can sense is the dark side growing within you and that leads to you not being made a Master. One gripe I have is the fact that after SoR you become the Battlemaster, no matter what, which should never been the case for a DS Jedi.

Playing as a DS Jedi just showed the hypocrisy of the Jedi Order and made it actually easier to justify turning my back on them later on and thus becoming a saboteur. Being DS does not mean automatically that you have to play a crazy murder hobo. Maybe you think that the ends justify the means, that the needs of the many exceed the needs of the few, that the Jedi should lead the Republic instead of the Senate because they know better or that Sith are a blight on the galaxy, can't be redeemed and have to be stamped out without prejudice whenever you deal with them. Also, you don't have to be DS from the start. Make it a slippery slope.

Warning, some spoilers for JK below:

Sometimes it's the necessity of war. The JK is one of their greatest and most powerful weapons on the frontlines and later on their only hope to defeat the Emperor. They have the choice of muzzling you and by that risk that the Emperor wins or turn a blind eye for now and deal with this later. And I don't think you can ever be outright cruel in front of the Jedi Council. It's not as if they know everything you do. The only thing they can sense is the dark side growing within you and that leads to you not being made a Master. One gripe I have is the fact that after SoR you become the Battlemaster, no matter what, which should never been the case for a DS Jedi.

 

Playing as a DS Jedi just showed the hypocrisy of the Jedi Order and made it actually easier to justify turning my back on them later on and thus becoming a saboteur. Being DS does not mean automatically that you have to play a crazy murder hobo. Maybe you think that the ends justify the means, that the needs of the many exceed the needs of the few, that the Jedi should lead the Republic instead of the Senate because they know better or that Sith are a blight on the galaxy, can't be redeemed and have to be stamped out without prejudice whenever you deal with them. Also, you don't have to be DS from the start. Make it a slippery slope.

Still doesn't work for me personally, like I've said, I've tried it, and I haven't bought it. And yes, I did try to RP it properly I wasn't just being a "murder hobo", slippery slope just like you said, I wasn't just smashing every DS choice for the heck of it. I still didn't buy it. There was no moment big enough to justify a true DS turn for me personally. And of course, that's mainly due to the fact that we cannot leave our faction.

What I found works better is playing neutral, leaning towards darkness for the first 2 chapters, overconfident, classic Anakin in AotC stuff, sprinkling in some DS choices that are understandable to make in war etc. But the Emperors fortress I find is a good point to have a redeeming moment, it doesn't work as well imho for you to continue or worsen your fall to the darkside after escaping the Emperors grasp considering you end up winning against him anyways and never see any real consequence for your fall. Like, if this was a movie, we'd see the consequence, and it'd be the best part of the story. We all love the Mustafar duel right?

It can work I guess, you can say his influence just made you worse in the end and all that, but the story just fizzles out kinda then, you don't get the satisfaction of watching yourself actually fully fall to the darkside for real. You are always still just another Jedi and treated as if you are as LS as the next guy, they never make you FEEL the consequences of the story, because they can't. I just think the idea of being scared straight by the experience and recommitted to the LS works better for me. If the story skipped all of Makeb, SoR, KOTxx and just went right to the saboteur stuff next, MAYBE I'd like it better. But it's too disjointed for me as it stands.

Still doesn't work for me personally....[...]

Totally valid. I just wanted to give another perspective that you can find ways to make it work if you really want to. And IMO the story gives you wriggle room to do that - doesn't automatically mean that it works for you personally. Either it feels right for you or it doesn't. I found just as much satisfaction in the story as LS and DS depending on the character's background.

it doesn't work as well imho for you to continue or worsen your fall to the darkside after escaping the Emperors grasp considering you end up winning against him anyways and never see any real consequence for your fall[...]

It might be a wake up call, or just drag you deeper if you are a Jedi with overinflated ego for example. Being told that you are special for resisting the Emperor's influence would give you enough fuel for that (might also make you think that the other Jedi were weak for not resisting him). Falling to the dark side is not something you choose. You might not even be aware of it until it's too late. But I can understand that playing an unreasonable character is not everyone's cup of tea.

Glad I read this, My Two new Merc AGent and Trooper I had planned to make them Saboteurs. After reading this I think I will pass at least till they make it better.

For the agent it should work well and fit nicely if you actually chose a certain outcome in the class story. For the trooper it might work reasonably well.

Glad I read this, My Two new Merc AGent and Trooper I had planned to make them Saboteurs. After reading this I think I will pass at least till they make it better.

I'm still planning to make a Saboteur Agent I think, it could work for that class, so maybe don't give up on that one just yet!

I haven't reached this content yet, but I really hope they continue it in a sensical way.

My BH had a "well, crap" moment back on Hoth when the GenoHaradan told her they were too late in contacting her before she joined the Great Hunt. She's really tired of being given jobs by petty Sith lunatics.

What I'm not sure about is how Mandalore feels about the saboteur choice. And Torian, since in his bio it says that his dad was considered a traitor because he defected to the Republic. From what I understand from playing the story, he was made a traitor because he went against Mandalore's decisions.

I've enjoyed the Saboteur storyline thus far, but until we see what the conclusion of that storyline is it's hard to say whether it's worth it or not. It is more fun than just being a loyalist lackey however.

Yeah basically what I would say is that, if your character is leaning that way anyway, it works well enough. I definitely feel that it's better than nothing.

But I wouldn't choose the saboteur story lines for their own sake.

Yeah basically what I would say is that, if your character is leaning that way anyway, it works well enough. I definitely feel that it's better than nothing.

 

But I wouldn't choose the saboteur story lines for their own sake.

I hope we'll get to defect eventually. Since classes effectively become "origin stories" and "combat styles" in 7.0, there's no reason for BioWare not to allow us to defect if we want to. It would be the most logical end for the saboteur storyline and players have wanted a faction change option basically since release.

I just don't see how or why the Jedi would allow such an obviously evil person in their Order.. It's not like this behaviour would remain hidden. And I never buy the whole "well they are powerful so the Jedi deal with it" excuses. THAT Jedi would never have made it to Tython to begin with, theyd have gotten sent off to the farm colonies like the dude who couldn't lift the rock... They clearly don't understand the code. But we can't be punished for any of this like any other character would, because we are the untouchable one? Just doesn't make sense to me. The Jedi never tolerate that kind of outward cruelty in other situations, that's why I don't buy this one.

The JK story itself really doesn't fit the narrative of a "fallen" Knight that well even though the writer(s) did put a lot of moral dilemma choices to set up the toon you want to play.

I won't think a DK JK is fallen from the beginning. They are more like those smart kids who are always no.1 in school exams, everyone thinks and expect they are the model good student. But then, reality hit them. Real life is not just about doing great in exams. And the smart kids start to feel frustrated because things are not simple as they were before. Eventually they snap a the pressure rises. In real life, those smart kids have two extreme outcomes: they either pick a roof and jump down, or they become the most manipulative people in the society.

And I think that's exactly what happen to the JK. They start as the best student. They solves the crisis on Tython. But the Jedi Order overlooks the lack of sympathy the JK is toward the Twi'leks but they never think that's an issue because the Jedi Order is not being sympathetic to the Twi'leks themselves. Illegal immigrants or not, the Jedi Order watches them brutally killed by the fresh eaters and do nothing until the fresh eaters are at their door.

Then the JK is sent to deal with real life crisis. And boy, are the Republic a bunch of ****-ups. They beg the JK to take care of their ****-ups and the JK take care of it. The JK makes some morally questionable decisions but those decisions save a lot of time. Crisis over. The JK hand in their homework with perfect score once a gain.

The JK starts to think they are the solution to everything. They take in Kira's view about how the Jedi Order (the JK) is more important than the Republic. They are the judge, jury, and executioner and they are on the Light Side. There's no way they could be wrong.

The Jedi Order starts to feel wary, but the war breaks out and they don't have the *********** time to question every detail in the JK's mission. The JK could skip over a lot of the more morally questionable decisions. The JK tell the Order that they have no other choices but to make those morally questionable decisions. And they work. A planet is saved. People, lives are saved. The JK is still the Order's Poster Boy/Girl.

Then comes Scourge. The JK might not like him at first. But Scourge is useful. And he supports the JK's view. He compliments the JK whenever the JK does something that's efficient: leave the wounded, ignore anything that's not directly about the mission, kill all their enemy in case they are future troubles, using violent on the ones who don't cooperate. Scourge is right. Saving everyone is more important than saving one. The Jedi Order is getting more and more annoying in the JK's eyes. The JK doesn't think he needs the Order, not the other way around, but the Order is still useful because, well, the JK needs the Order's resources to fulfill their destiny: defeat the Emperor. So the JK will work with the Order, for now.

The JK at this point is already delusional (about them being the destined one) and basically just a killing machine who thinks they are the law. But what could the Jedi Order do? Do they even see how far the JK has gone? There are so many other Jedi having a mental break down (Normen Kass) or are obviously corrupted by war (Ardun Koth), they are just glad that the JK is still willing/able to kill the Sith Emperor. They are still the 10/10 student in their eyes.

I can totally see a JK's downfall in the class story even though most of the dialogue aren't really made to fit a DK scenario. Most of the time they just sound silly lol

The JK story itself really doesn't fit the narrative of a "fallen" Knight that well even though the writer(s) did put a lot of moral dilemma choices to set up the toon you want to play.

 

I won't think a DK JK is fallen from the beginning. They are more like those smart kids who are always no.1 in school exams, everyone thinks and expect they are the model good student. But then, reality hit them. Real life is not just about doing great in exams. And the smart kids start to feel frustrated because things are not simple as they were before. Eventually they snap a the pressure rises. In real life, those smart kids have two extreme outcomes: they either pick a roof and jump down, or they become the most manipulative people in the society.

 

And I think that's exactly what happen to the JK. They start as the best student. They solves the crisis on Tython. But the Jedi Order overlooks the lack of sympathy the JK is toward the Twi'leks but they never think that's an issue because the Jedi Order is not being sympathetic to the Twi'leks themselves. Illegal immigrants or not, the Jedi Order watches them brutally killed by the fresh eaters and do nothing until the fresh eaters are at their door.

 

Then the JK is sent to deal with real life crisis. And boy, are the Republic a bunch of ****-ups. They beg the JK to take care of their ****-ups and the JK take care of it. The JK makes some morally questionable decisions but those decisions save a lot of time. Crisis over. The JK hand in their homework with perfect score once a gain.

 

The JK starts to think they are the solution to everything. They take in Kira's view about how the Jedi Order (the JK) is more important than the Republic. They are the judge, jury, and executioner and they are on the Light Side. There's no way they could be wrong.

 

The Jedi Order starts to feel wary, but the war breaks out and they don't have the *********** time to question every detail in the JK's mission. The JK could skip over a lot of the more morally questionable decisions. The JK tell the Order that they have no other choices but to make those morally questionable decisions. And they work. A planet is saved. People, lives are saved. The JK is still the Order's Poster Boy/Girl.

 

Then comes Scourge. The JK might not like him at first. But Scourge is useful. And he supports the JK's view. He compliments the JK whenever the JK does something that's efficient: leave the wounded, ignore anything that's not directly about the mission, kill all their enemy in case they are future troubles, using violent on the ones who don't cooperate. Scourge is right. Saving everyone is more important than saving one. The Jedi Order is getting more and more annoying in the JK's eyes. The JK doesn't think he needs the Order, not the other way around, but the Order is still useful because, well, the JK needs the Order's resources to fulfill their destiny: defeat the Emperor. So the JK will work with the Order, for now.

 

The JK at this point is already delusional (about them being the destined one) and basically just a killing machine who thinks they are the law. But what could the Jedi Order do? Do they even see how far the JK has gone? There are so many other Jedi having a mental break down (Normen Kass) or are obviously corrupted by war (Ardun Koth), they are just glad that the JK is still willing/able to kill the Sith Emperor. They are still the 10/10 student in their eyes.

 

I can totally see a JK's downfall in the class story even though most of the dialogue aren't really made to fit a DK scenario. Most of the time they just sound silly lol

Wow, gotta say, you gripped me with THAT scenario, however like you said, the thing that spoils it for me is how the DS dialogue is written and performed. Silly, exactly like you say. They don't have a suitable VA for it imo as well as the poor writing around some of the choices.