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7.0 putting out Fear not Hope.


TheVoyant

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Bah, yet another thread mouthing off... this is getting really old.

 

Most of those i talk to are really interested in it. I for one am really excited for it.

 

It's like the PVP (and lesser extent OP) crowd have Stockholm Syndrome or something. They've gotten so used to a bloated and clunky system we've had for so long, they've grown attached to it.

 

Its a thread trying to base a discussion around a larger perception. Trying to gather all these aspects into one, my position is coming from a marketing background thus the biggest thing that stands out to me is the effect this is having from that position. Its odd to release a new product to entice customers to it actually seem to be having an adverse effect on your already existing consumer base. That is the initial point. Not doom and gloom but essentially trying to gather more information towards the general player consensus without assuming ones position in arrogance or through egocentric means.

 

Second, your stockholm syndrome analogy makes little sense. I play all content in game, there's not a lot of it so I try and do it all. I play a Sorc which doesn't rely too heavily on defensives (though the few we have via utility are a blast to utilize.)

 

The current set up allows strategy due to having more abilities. Akin to a game of football where because you have so many moving parts where and when you move them creates openings. It makes the game exciting and yes a thousand times I've said the game does a terrible job of teaching players to be good at the game itself.

 

But reduction of abilities and openings for strategy is not akin to being held down or prisoner until you submit into compliance via admiration for host. One might say thats precisely what is happening to those who comply with the changes a large majority feel negatively about... But still I think this approach of trying to talk down on a group of people you disagree with is crass and something we should eliminate as adults.

 

Nowhere in here am I shaming those who are optimistic or cheering on those who are worried. It is quite simple the majority of people I play with are going to other games or completely disenfranchised with the current direction to the point they're ready to look elsewhere. All I am doing is searching for other views and experiences to collect intelligence for personal curiosity.

 

Aka don't have to agree with me, but don't have to assume a bunch of negative things because we're of different points of view.

Edited by TheVoyant
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I knew my sentinel could do Spirit of Vengence since I did it on live and that was the big test for me because if I couldn't do it with the new changes that is going to be a big problem for me.

 

Yeah, that’s a good test considering it’s the latest. I didn’t think to try that one. I tried veteran uprising (landing party) and veteran Korriban and Tython. All of which I can do on my Sent and Guardian on live. None of which I could complete on the pts with the changes. My concern is there is so much pve content they will need to rebalance that I don’t see it being done properly.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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The only thing that will bring about significant change will be cancelled subscriptions after it drops.

 

Honestly, how many people does it take for that to work?

And then what happens when everyone unsubs and the game hasn’t got enough income?

It’s better if Bioware listen to feedback before a mass protest because we don’t have the population we used to have and I fear a mass protest this time would make EA shutter the game instead of giving Bioware a chance to fix it.

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Honestly, how many people does it take for that to work?

And then what happens when everyone unsubs and the game hasn’t got enough income?

It’s better if Bioware listen to feedback before a mass protest because we don’t have the population we used to have and I fear a mass protest this time would make EA shutter the game instead of giving Bioware a chance to fix it.

There is no "this time" about it. The game has had a constant sword of Damocles hanging above it, if it didn't make enough money. And the thing is, BW does listen to feedback, but it's kind of a case of Chinese whispers.

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Yes, they sure do and every time they don’t listen we lose more players.

 

It's okay because this time it will be the magical expansion that brings all of those new players and keeps them for more than a month without alienating the people that like the game how it is now. /s

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Yes, they sure do and every time they don’t listen we lose more players.

 

I feel like the lack of updates and time between updates is what results in the most significant amount of drop-offs.

 

Elder Scrolls Online has made many changes that fans haven't liked and at a times too frequently players/fans feel, ie an update hits that makes crafting worse, then 3 months later an update hits that makes one class worse than all others, then 3 months after that something that makes group content worse, etc, there are of course good things in those updates too but part of what keeps a number of players around or coming back are the frequency and size of the updates ESO puts out.

 

With SWTOR it's a bit easier to parse things out in a way due to the game's lack of frequency in updates and (limited) variety it offers. So for instance we know there are people who just play for the story, there are people who just play for PVP, people who just play raids, etc. We don't the numbers or percentages of those players but we do know that there are players who will just play through the new story content and leave. We know that there are players that will continue to re-roll and replay through the existing stories. We know that there are PVP players that only want to do Ranked PVP and so on.

 

The thing is though none of it really gets updated much or frequently and none of it is particularly strong (aside from the vanilla story content) and over time it seems/feels like each section of SWTOR (story, group content, etc) has gotten worse outside of Quality of Life improvements.

 

There's also a difference between not listening and not doing anything. So for example, if PVP needs more content, variety, etc, but Bioware isn't focusing on anything related to PVP at that time it's not that they're not listening but more that they're not doing anything with or about it at all and sometimes that can be a bigger detriment to an ongoing game than the perception of a developer not listening.

 

I know some people will/might say "Not doing anything is the same thing as not listening." but that's not always the case and generally that statement is just validating their frustrations which is why the two things can or do become conflated at times.

Edited by Darth-Obvious
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I feel like the lack of updates and time between updates is what results in the most significant amount of drop-offs.

 

Elder Scrolls Online has made many changes that fans haven't liked and at a times too frequently players/fans feel, ie an update hits that makes crafting worse, then 3 months later an update hits that makes one class worse than all others, then 3 months after that something that makes group content worse, etc, there are of course good things in those updates too but part of what keeps a number of players around or coming back are the frequency and size of the updates ESO puts out.

 

With SWTOR it's a bit easier to parse things out in a way due to the game's lack of frequency in updates and (limited) variety it offers. So for instance we know there are people who just play for the story, there are people who just play for PVP, people who just play raids, etc. We don't the numbers or percentages of those players but we do know that there are players who will just play through the new story content and leave. We know that there are players that will continue to re-roll and replay through the existing stories. We know that there are PVP players that only want to do Ranked PVP and so on.

 

The thing is though none of it really gets updated much or frequently and none of it is particularly strong (aside from the vanilla story content) and over time it seems/feels like each section of SWTOR (story, group content, etc) has gotten worse outside of Quality of Life improvements.

 

There's also a difference between not listening and not doing anything. So for example, if PVP needs more content, variety, etc, but Bioware isn't focusing on anything related to PVP at that time it's not that they're not listening but more that they're not doing anything with or about it at all and sometimes that can be a bigger detriment to an ongoing game than the perception of a developer not listening.

 

I know some people will/might say "Not doing anything is the same thing as not listening." but that's not always the case and generally that statement is just validating their frustrations which is why the two things can or do become conflated at times.

 

Yes, good points. Lack of content definitely contributes. I do t think anyone, not even Bioware would argue against that.

 

But there are also times when they are working on something specific and they don’t listen. Aka, most expansions seem to have some baked in elements that Bioware will not change no matter how bad the feed back. It’s those baked in elements that often cause the most distress to the players who end up leaving the game or unsubscribing,

 

I think all of us here want the game to succeed and have more players. It’s why we are so passionate in our discussions and feed back to Bioware.

 

Sadly, it often feels like there are elements in Bioware who don’t care either way and all they care about is their next job placement in EA and so they make funky changes to swtor that no one asks for so they can buff their resumes or get a promotion at the expense of destroying parts of the game or people unsubbing in protest.

 

Look at the last producer. He had his eyes on Anthem promotion and F’d over swtor by taking it in a direction away from being an MMO and then Anthem failed anyway and he left. Half the stuff he put into Anthem he’d trialed in swtor and he still didn’t learn his lesson.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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Yes, they sure do and every time they don’t listen we lose more players.

Well here's thing: they do actually listen, however, they then try to combine as much of that as they can and then come with one solution to ruin them all.

 

I'll give you an example:

 

Some people ask for a new zone to do more dailies

Some people ask to give more story

Some people ask for more group content

Some people ask for more challenging content.

Some people want more explorable planets.

 

BW thinks about this and then creates an FP that is part of the main story, on a new planet, with bonus quests and it's harder than most FPs. So now we have an FP that is avoided in the GF (people quit when they get this one), the bonus quests are sort of annoying and avoided after the first time. People play it in VM or SM for the story but it's actually challenging for casual players and it's still not an explorable planet in spite of the layout.

 

So that's what I mean with "one solution to ruin them all" and you know which FPs I'm referring to because there are multiple ones like this. And then I haven't even touched forced companions...

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Guild Wars 2 was created because the developers fell in love with their villains, the charr and as a result they turned the lore upside down and inside out. I hate GW2 as much as I loved the original. Apparently not enough of uswho feel that way around though. Not just the story the mechanics are terrible.

I felt the same way. I could not believe that they didn't move the story along to restore Ascalon to humans (possibly even to a descendant of King Adelbern.) Not to mention things like removing click-to-move. I didn't buy it when it came out and I didn't pick it up even after it went F2P.

 

Last time SWTOR proposed changes I didn't like, I gave a lot of feedback on the forum; I was not the only one either. BW - as usual - went ahead. I let my subscription lapse for 2 years during which time the changes were slowly - and unceremoniously - undone. (No, I'm not claiming my action had anything to do with it.) I resubscribed. Once again, so far, I don't like what is on PTS (for Guardian) and what I'm reading from others about Sentinel (*). If this goes onto production servers, it is likely (who knows at this point?) that I will be unhappy enough to unsubscribe for a while.

 

One person's subscription is not material enough to change a developer's direction but that is all I can do - vote with my wallet and go play something else. Fortunately, there are alternatives.

 

(*) I am choosing to not waste any more of my time "testing" Sentinel on PTS as I believe - based on JackieKo's post - that BW has made up its mind.

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Well here's thing: they do actually listen, however, they then try to combine as much of that as they can and then come with one solution to ruin them all.

 

I'll give you an example:

 

Some people ask for a new zone to do more dailies

Some people ask to give more story

Some people ask for more group content

Some people ask for more challenging content.

Some people want more explorable planets.

 

BW thinks about this and then creates an FP that is part of the main story, on a new planet, with bonus quests and it's harder than most FPs. So now we have an FP that is avoided in the GF (people quit when they get this one), the bonus quests are sort of annoying and avoided after the first time. People play it in VM or SM for the story but it's actually challenging for casual players and it's still not an explorable planet in spite of the layout.

 

So that's what I mean with "one solution to ruin them all" and you know which FPs I'm referring to because there are multiple ones like this. And then I haven't even touched forced companions...

 

IMO this is a perfect example of what went so wrong.

 

One size does not fit all. And trying to make one size fit all or even reducing or simplifying how the game is played will only further divide us. Kind of sad really.

 

BTW .. until now I really had not put thing together the way you did. And IMO you are 100% right on target.

 

We really do need: ( I hope borrowing the list is not offensive)

 

** Some people ask for a new zone to do more dailies: A solid request. Many of us have ran the current list of dailies for quite some time now.

** Some people ask to give more story: IMO this is the basis from which the genre of SWTOR has been based and should continue to be so.

** Some people ask for more group content : Without more content this game ( like most others) will flat die !

** Some people ask for more challenging content. We still need this and the multi-level difficulty is STILL the best answer !

** Some people want more explorable planets. Again ... a valid point and a SOLID request.

 

The simple fact is that the FP you are referring to me is a good FP (for the most part and still has a couple bugs). It is not the only one in which the story and the FP were merged. I can see both good and bad in that idea.

 

IMO one of the problems we're facing right now is that there is an obvious shortage of resources for this game (regardless of who or what is the blame) . Consequently we have seen things began to unfold ( and subsequently unravel ) as they have. Which is why some of us are really confused as to why we see the priority list unfolding as it is right now. You can see the frustration setting in right now on the average post being made. (not good).

 

The list you have provided as you also have already noted is just the tip of the iceberg. And that is even more unfortunate. IMO the team works hard at what they are doing. And from what I can see .. wow !! Just wow !! (not in a good sense). I guess that is why I've decided to post less (until now).

 

Add to your list:

** PvP issues (which are about to get even more complicated)

** Non-interactive companions ( pretty much a dead issue now) so that they don't compete with the CM companions. ( I think there are what ... about 20 now that a player can purchase plus other "non-interactive" companions. I'm certain that it's only a matter of time when those that are non-interactive have special abilities (something that is also being requested) ... that the old INTERACTIVE companions will NOT have. This will also be billed as something that players have requested.

 

Again as it has already been pointed out: this is just a very small part of what could be listed and discussed.

 

Tsillah ... I do believe that you are on the right track on this one. We might not agree point for point ... but over all this is what is happening.

 

For me personally ... all I can do is sit and watch. People who are in my demographic will be the LAST group that will be listened to ! And that will never change. I know that at least one person will read carefully what I have posted. ( And I appreciate it very much). They are doing their job as well as anyone could ask for ! What actions are taken to heart ... that's in the hands of someone else. ( I also get that too).

 

So here is to one of the few last ditch efforts to offer a flame of hope that is beginning to flicker a bit. Kind of hard to stay focused on a more positive note right about now !!

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IMO this is a perfect example of what went so wrong.

 

One size does not fit all. And trying to make one size fit all or even reducing or simplifying how the game is played will only further divide us. Kind of sad really.

 

BTW .. until now I really had not put thing together the way you did. And IMO you are 100% right on target.

Hehe, well thanks. I do appreciate it.

 

We really do need: ( I hope borrowing the list is not offensive)

 

** Some people ask for a new zone to do more dailies: A solid request. Many of us have ran the current list of dailies for quite some time now.

** Some people ask to give more story: IMO this is the basis from which the genre of SWTOR has been based and should continue to be so.

** Some people ask for more group content : Without more content this game ( like most others) will flat die !

** Some people ask for more challenging content. We still need this and the multi-level difficulty is STILL the best answer !

** Some people want more explorable planets. Again ... a valid point and a SOLID request.

Well, I'm actually glad you did this. By themselves each request is very valid. I do think that BW listens, but somehow I feel they lose it in the execution because they try to combine too many things in one. But the requestors of each thing are not the same and that's why they end up pleasing very few people. I think a lot of people will put up with it but that's not the same.

The simple fact is that the FP you are referring to me is a good FP (for the most part and still has a couple bugs). It is not the only one in which the story and the FP were merged. I can see both good and bad in that idea.
Well there are multiple FPs like this such as Copero and Nathema. But they already started this deal with telling the MAIN story with the 3.0 prelude. I didn't care for it much because it felt tedious putting all my characters through it. A main gripe I have with that format is that it feels very much the same each playthrough because of the format and because you can't stop half-way and pick it up later. You must finish it or lose your progress.

IMO one of the problems we're facing right now is that there is an obvious shortage of resources for this game (regardless of who or what is the blame) . Consequently we have seen things began to unfold ( and subsequently unravel ) as they have. Which is why some of us are really confused as to why we see the priority list unfolding as it is right now. You can see the frustration setting in right now on the average post being made. (not good).
Well I think that the team is small but could be bigger if they chose to. But they don't have to because the margin between revenue and cost is fine for them. But that's a management decision, even already within BioWare management. You've got to question their judgment when they put a team on a lost game (Anthem) and stop investing into their known franchises (ME:Andromeda). SWTOR could use more investment of resources because at the core it's a good game. But BioWare has lost their sense of pride into what they're creating in my view.

The list you have provided as you also have already noted is just the tip of the iceberg. And that is even more unfortunate. IMO the team works hard at what they are doing. And from what I can see .. wow !! Just wow !! (not in a good sense). I guess that is why I've decided to post less (until now).

 

Add to your list:

** PvP issues (which are about to get even more complicated)

** Non-interactive companions ( pretty much a dead issue now) so that they don't compete with the CM companions. ( I think there are what ... about 20 now that a player can purchase plus other "non-interactive" companions. I'm certain that it's only a matter of time when those that are non-interactive have special abilities (something that is also being requested) ... that the old INTERACTIVE companions will NOT have. This will also be billed as something that players have requested.

 

Again as it has already been pointed out: this is just a very small part of what could be listed and discussed.

All fair points. When it comes to PvP though and also GSF. Well it could've been in a much better position but I fear that they can no longer create a business case for investing into those. And it's sad really but I do believe that's their bottom line. EA/BioWare are not Square Enix after all. SE stands by their products. I miss that in the BW of today.

Tsillah ... I do believe that you are on the right track on this one. We might not agree point for point ... but over all this is what is happening.
Well and we don't need to agree point for point but I do take it as a compliment that you can agree with my general thought process on this.

For me personally ... all I can do is sit and watch. People who are in my demographic will be the LAST group that will be listened to ! And that will never change. I know that at least one person will read carefully what I have posted. ( And I appreciate it very much). They are doing their job as well as anyone could ask for ! What actions are taken to heart ... that's in the hands of someone else. ( I also get that too).
Haha, well I read anything through when I believe it's worth reading. You may have a decade or two on my but I still read books and so these "walls of text" aren't daunting for me lol.

So here is to one of the few last ditch efforts to offer a flame of hope that is beginning to flicker a bit. Kind of hard to stay focused on a more positive note right about now !!
I'd like to say it's a more realistic note. It speeds up the process of acceptance and from there it's a lot easier to go back to the positive :)

 

As Bertrand Russell said: The secret to happiness is to face the fact that the world is horrible.

 

The emphasis is on face in that. Face the facts, deal with them, get over them and then any positive will make you happy again ;)

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then maybe you should test pvp, its all i do and i am losing two definsive abilities due to utilities being removed, this is galaxies all over again, cater to the softies and dumb it down so hardcore players leave.

 

I have tested the sentinel (combat) and even though there are a few abilities I would like baseline, most of the changes were fine for my playstyle. I am not a pvp player, never have and never will be, so the changes I tested were fine. I did a variety of things but I also went and updated my gear to what it is in live to give it an accurate test for my playstyle.

 

I did not have any problmes with killing the npc, even though doc was at rank 1 when he is actually at rank 50 on live, so I figured if I can survive and kill what I need to and do the activities I normally do, then there is a big chance it is not as bad as some are claiming and even some of those that are not happy, have actually stated they did not test it, they just read the changes and just assume how bad it was.

 

As I said, there are a few abilities, that might need to be baseline but there are also some abilities people claim everyone uses but yet there are some I rarely use so for me it was not a big deal. And before anyone gets bent out of shape and tells me to learn how to play or something in that regard, I know how to play and have done some operations, but I don't do pickup groups.

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then maybe you should test pvp, its all i do and i am losing two definsive abilities due to utilities being removed, this is galaxies all over again, cater to the softies and dumb it down so hardcore players leave.

 

Then maybe instead of asking someone else to test pvp that never pvp, you go test it on the PTS and then make a report of what is missing on the forum post (https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9960719#post9960719) like some of the other pvp players, such as Trixxie, and others instead of suggesting a non-pvp player test something they never play.

Edited by casirabit
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Sure you can potentially play a Trooper that uses the entire Bounty Hunter ability-set, or a Bounty Hunter that uses the Trooper ability-set, but to achieve this they are going to cut/gate away 4-6 abilities from every class.

Very bad if you actually know how/when to use certain utilities or just enjoy the freedom of trying different types of rotations.

 

Its like oh wow I'm really just the Bounty Hunter spec with the trooper story. Death-from-above in the trooper story wow so much new choice.

There has to be a way they could untie class-set from story-choice without pruning our abilities.

 

I'm sure the ability to use any tech combat style on any tech class, is unrelated to the ability pruning. The ability pruning could just as easily have happened without the proliferation of combat styles.

 

Though, I don't see how anyone could hate Commando's playstyle but like Mercenary playstyle. They're the same playstyle except with different weapons.

 

I can understand not liking using certain weapons though. I love Sniper Class, but hated using Sniper Rifle on my Agent. Didn't like Operative Playstyle as much and didn't like Blaster Rifle on my Agent.

 

I'd be more happy to play Gunslinger, Scoundrel (Operative playstyle with a pistol) or Mercenary (Dual Pistols and gadgets) on my Agent.

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An expansion where the big draw is the opportunity to play as a class that has been in the game for ten years, through a class story that has been in the game for ten years. When you consider what percentage of the game is made up of this class specific content, and what percentage is now available to everyone, and the same for everyone, it becomes even more ridiculous. You could put Mando armor on your Sniper and already have ~80% the same experience that they're advertising.

 

All this because they wanted to expand the number of people they could sell cartel market rifles to from The Mandalorian, but didn't want to bother creating new animations, many of which could have simply been transferred from the appropriate classes to begin with. How exciting to see where my sub dollars go.

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I agree to some degree. But I believe that we are going to get another small expansion like Onslaught and there will be content draught for another year or two which will make me unsubscribe again. I talk to friends and they also think this is not enough to keep them going for another dry year. Maybe the scailing of old content will be good, maybe not. I am not excited about doing EV and KP ever again. I know for some people this is the stuff, but for someone who was there when it came out, is nothing at all exciting. We are getting only one new planet/ daily area. One! How long before you are bored of exploring and getting rep? 2/3 months? One operation that will keep us for maybe half a year. And one flashpoint, which i just don't even count as they conditioned us to wait for these in onslaught like its godsend. One week excitement, clear it quick 25 times for cc and move on, dead again for 3 months. Plesse devs, we need more, we deserve more. Do with this money we give you something that we will want to give you more. Not this what we get now.
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I have no fear or hope, just apathy........:confused:

 

Yeah, pretty much. There's no point getting hopeful or fearful.

 

I download the PTS and give a little feedback on what there. I just don't expect anything to change because of that feedback. Bioware is gonna do what Bioware is gonna do.

 

It's worth checking out the PTS though, just so you know what will be coming and aren't caught by surprise when 7.0 drops.

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