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Vanguard Feedback Thread

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fenrir-zs's Avatar


fenrir-zs
11.27.2021 , 12:36 AM | #21
Hello,
Here is my feedback/recommendation on the current state of VG/PT's. Any constructive discussion is more than welcome.

Discussion points:

Defense:
- The class overall feels that it's missing something at max level. I feel they are missing a defensive active cooldown that wouldn't impact the class balance a lot. Therefore I would like to propose to make "Decoy" baseline for both VG-Commando and PT- Merc. This way you could give a slight buff (absorb 2 attacks) and give a more complete feel to the VG and PT.
- The ability already exists, so it only needs to be added to the shared ability list.

Mobility
- Every melee class has a default mobility ability even before considering the skill tree (leap, speed,roll). VG/PT's only have harpoon (which has a 45 sec cd) and both "Storm/Charge" and "Hold the Line/Torque Boosters" are on the skill tree.
- I propose "Hold the Line/Torque Boosters" (6sec version) become baseline for VG/PT's, and the skill tree place be swapped for the "+4 sec duration".
- This way you can have a more meaningful choice at that skill tree level on whether you want to control (stun), a little survivability (healing), or more mobility. As it stands currently, the ability (hold the line) is so important that no one will choose the other 2 options in either PVE or PVP, so the choice is pretty much irrelevant.
- Making it baseline will keep the current mobility level and a more meaningful decision in the skill tree.

Animations
- This is more of a pet peeve of mine than a bigger issue, but as everything is being worked on, I thought I would bring it up: VG animations.
- Shooting: as it stands today the VG blaster rifle shoots: Hammer shot, High Impact Bolt, Tactical Surge, Cell Burst, Flak Shell, Ion Wave,Harpoon. This always felt awkward compared to its imp counterpart.
- Proposed solution: High Impact bolt and harpoon use the PT wrist-mounted gun animation. This way we can have a little variety with no huge overhaul. The animation already exists, colors are the same (physical attack, so no energy shot needs to be recolored) and could be swapped with little effort.
- Storm animation: speed up the animation. Playing both VG and PT I always noticed how sluggish the "Storm" animation looked compared to "Jet Charge". I wouldn't even mind if the "Jet Charge" animation is applied, instead of "Storm".

And overall that was it. VG/PT feels okay, just missing that little piece, but overall I like the new changes.
Really hope any of my inputs get seen and considered. Cheers!

Zarmi's Avatar


Zarmi
12.06.2021 , 04:56 AM | #22
Very late to the party of providing feedback - probably too late in reality.

However, it occured to me yesterday, while I was theorycrafting for 7.0, that with the Veteran Ranger being a potential legendary in 7.0, there might finally be merit to the shoulder cannon heal utility.

However, the final state of the PTS had you choose between Guard Cannon / Cryo Grenade / Hold The Line...

This talent tier seems to be extremely unfavoured, since the only real choice to go for is Hold The Line / Hydro Override, when it comes to PvP.

Without an on-demand movement boost and slow purge, Vanguard would essentially be the only class in the game that is unable to disengage from a melee fight at will, or, at the very least, the only class unable to purge a slow from itself. Vanguards are already very squishy when tied up, and if we can no longer deal with being slowed, we will have to turn even more to a playstyle of 'fire and forget' akin to 6.x.

I feel that Hold The Line / Hydro Override should either be baked into the Vanguard kit by default, or at least not compete with Guard Cannon if the Shoulder Missile build is ever to become viable.

Maybe Guard Cannon should be moved to the level 80 tier instead?
Stop complaining/worrying about something you haven't tried or played. It's meaningless.

Setta's Avatar


Setta
12.19.2021 , 06:19 AM | #23
Finally got around to testing things out.

1) First and foremost, Storm & Impact Charge. While Impact Charge is given to tanks, Storm needs to be baseline for dps also. This is a melee class. It needs to close the gap with what ever it's fighting and be allowed to use it's abilities. You can not rely on a movement increase from abilities like Hold the Line to be a gap closer. The cd on that is to high and we lose our movement ability for when we need it. Something like Harpoon isn't ideal either. As some mobs like bosses can't be pulled, nor do you want to reposition mobs away from where the tank has them so you can start your dps a few seconds earlier. If you're insistent on it being an ability to select as a choice understand that this is a must pick ability then, and we don't really have a choice at level 35.

1A) Reserve Cables the 2 charges is good for pvp. Pull an enemy of a squishy, they gap close back and pull them again. Or pull an enemy out of position. They force speed back, or get pulled back themselves, and you pull them back again. Sure this works for pvp. However I would not take this over Storm. This is a good choice for a tank who already has Impact Charge. The Extraction Plan portion feels odd on tanks. Sure you can pull someone to safety, however I feel like this would have been a better option for dps. Here's why. As a dps you can also use this in PvE and pull a friendly who is out of position to you. A tank can not or should not do so in PvE, because there's a good chance that squishy will just get cleaved by the mobs on the tank. Unless you're into trolling your team mates. It would have been a better option for a dps in my opinion.

Blazing Harpoon, the Plasmatech's other Harpoon utility. *** is this? Why is it here? Negligible 4k damage and a 6s slow. Compared to Tactic's Pull & Pummel, which does 10.5 to 11.2k damage 20% kinetic Stock Strike damage increase and has a 3 second stun. I mean again I wouldn't take either one over Storm, but if that ever became baseline again, someone needs to look at balancing the two abilities against each other cause this is sad. Truly, truly sad.

2) Pulse Canon for Shield Tech. Please explain this to me. What was the thought process here? What does the channel offer? More damage? That's cool, however in the time to finish the channel you can fit an extra ability in there, so you're not really gaining anything. Maybe slightly better aoe damage, but overall you're not really gaining anything from this, while giving up the other options that this tree offers.

3) Paralytic Aug another thing I'm not really following. This last tier talent essentially relies on the fact that you took Cryo Grenade on the talent before it. If you didn't, it's worthless as an option. Meaning that technically we have 2 options in our last tech tree as opposed to 3. An ability tree should be independent of the previous talent. I understand that someone will say Efficient Tools also affects Cryo Grenade but at least it does other things as well. Where as Pralytic Aug, only increases Neural Surge stun duration by .5 seconds for a last tier talent if you don't have cryo grenade.

4) Shield Tech This feels very barren in terms of abilities to use. It always has, but for some reason even more now. Losing Cryo Grenade Power Reserve giving up Stealth Scan (hardly used but still) for either of the other 2 options, transpose is also situational enough to where I took the extra grapple but will experiment with this, and my bar feels so empty. Especially when you're used to playing with 3 full bars that are hot keyed and 2 other bars that were there.

5) Armor Piercing Round I want to bring this up, because I don't want to be completely negative on the changes we've had. I will give credit to where credit is due, and credit is definitely due here. See this here, this right here is an amazing choice for an ability in a tier tree. It's an ability that changes a dot to slightly less powerful burst damage ability. You give up the dot spread of Incendiary Round and Ion Wave spreading it by taking Armor Piercing Round, and you do slightly less damage, but you gain burst and put a debuff on the target. This right here is how, meaningful options should be done. (Not we're taking away Storm and giving you two useless Harpoon options that you'll never take, can you tell how annoyed I am at that still?)

This is a choice to consider even without looking at the other options in the same tier. Because it changes how you play all by itself. While some will bring up other abilities that change as well I.E Tactical Strike which changes Shock Strike from single target damage ability to an AoE damage ability, it's not the same thing. Tactical Strike just buffs Shock Strike. Nothing more nothing less. You compare that buff to other buffs in the talent tree for the same row, and you decide if the aoe buff is worth it or not compared to the other options. APR completely changes an ability, with it's own up sides and downsides irrelevant of the other options in the tree. Don't get me wrong you're still going to consider the other options as well. However APR having downsides of it's own, means you consider if they're even worth it to start wtih, and then if so, then you compare it to the other abilities in that tier tree.

Pick the ability and you no longer have the dot spread capability, your damage goes down a bit, but again you gain burst & a debuff on an enemy. You can no longer even fire of Incendiary Round on an immune boss prematurely because once the immunity goes away in a second or two, they will take damage and you save yourself a GCD thus increasing your dps. Where as APR has to be used after the immunities go away. These are all minor things to be considered and I love it. I love what this change does. I get not all options can be like this, and in fact only a few should be, however it's just really well done and I want to stress that. A++ here in my onion. The one thing I noticed is that the animation seems to be bugged as there's no animation that I notice here. They just take damage and that's it.

6) Not Vanguard specific, but the white outlines on the abilities you've chosen could be better visually shown. The white outline while can be seen, I imagine is going to be a pain in the butt for those with visual problems or smaller monitors, or even just new players. I would suggest at least graying out the ones that are not picked.

NormericanEagle's Avatar


NormericanEagle
12.22.2021 , 11:49 AM | #24
1. Mobility. Vanguards need both Storm/Impact Charge and Hold the Line. These abilities should be granted to all players by default, and are not remotely equivalent to grapple in gameplay. They are so important that I cannot imagine taking a different choice on the level 35 or 73 choices in any scenario. Vanguards also need some form of gap closer at lower levels. On live, they get Hold the Line somewhere around level 25. But on the PTS, Hold the Line is only an optional ability at level 73. So Vanguard DPS get no mobility until level 35, and tanks have to wait even longer, to level 51. This really, really, needs to be changed. I know other people have said this, but it needs to be said again.

2. Low level ability granting. While I was able to kill most enemies, the combat at low levels is exceedingly dull. Stockstrike and High Impact Bolt have long cooldowns, resulting in me using Hammer Shot about 75% of the time from level 1-14, because I simply had no other attacks off cooldown. From level 15+, when I got Explosive Surge, story mobs were not as bad. But heroic mobs and story bosses still required the boring rotation until I got Ion Pulse at level 35.

3. Endgame rotation (Tactics). On live, the Meteor Brawler set's energy reduction after Battle Focus, Recharge Cells, and Reserve Powercell, are all very important to energy management. They can be rotated to fix energy management mistakes or increase damage at several points during the rotation. On the PTS, the more powerful Recharge Cells is nice, but it doesn't make up for losing both the set bonus and Reserve Powercell, and it is considerably more difficult to manage my energy cells. I would suggest making the Meteor Brawler version of Battle Focus available in some way.

Other than these things, most of the changes to the class seem to be fine. I don't have a full set of max level gear and augments on the PTS, so I was unable to test damage output.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
12.29.2021 , 09:27 PM | #25
So this is probably beyond the scope of this particular patch, but I believe this separation of combat styles from their classes is the perfect time to begin divorcing the Advanced Classes from one another. In this case the Vanguard utilizes the same resource as the Commando and plays very similarly to the Power tech when they could be very different. Their could be a spec that has a greater focus on melee weapon combat, their could be a spec that is a "grenadier" that focuses on tossing grenades and of course the tactical spec can still mix the two in some way. With tech characters all able to choose between the 8 freely we do not need 4 of them to mirror each other any more.

Araberen's Avatar


Araberen
12.31.2021 , 07:32 AM | #26
PTs and Vanguards are broken in 7.0 in PVP.

They have CRAZY burst, like 100k single hit damage in 306 irating??? That's great. 2pts can kill team of 4 almost by them alone. They have stuns, better dcdc than in 6.0 and CRAZY dmg. Give them on top of that legendary item with 5mil dmg absorbtion and you have unstopabble machine.

klizilii's Avatar


klizilii
01.01.2022 , 11:04 AM | #27
Playing Advanced Prototype from level 1, currently at level 23

As you’re beginning from level 1, do you feel you have enough abilities that keep gameplay interesting?
Not really, as I noted in a feedback thread on levelling I feel like at level 23 I have one big cool AoE ability, a couple of single target hits with long cooldowns and then I spam one ability 80% of the time.
Are you able to defeat enemies at a reasonable rate?
Nothing is even challenging this early in the game. It's a little annoying the lack of early AoE and mobility on this class when on a planet with lots of ranged enemies spread out.
Do all your abilities feel like they’re working together?
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean but it feels like "just hit buttons and hurt things" Energy burst feels real useless with how infrequently you build up stacks.
SWTOR content @ youtube.com/draemn

klizilii's Avatar


klizilii
01.03.2022 , 12:11 AM | #28
Something is really broken about my shield-specialist vanguard at level 80.

I get zero extra shield or absorb rating from my stats. I just get the base stats from the shield and my passive, nothing extra. I'm also really confused at the fact that I can't use ion pulse as a regular filler as I quickly run into energy issues.
SWTOR content @ youtube.com/draemn

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
01.03.2022 , 12:29 PM | #29
Combining Thermal Sensor Override and Vent Heat is something I'd really like to be scrapped. Having them seperate is just so much better, especially now that the heat reduction from Meteor Brawler is gone. (Very noticeable when opening with double Energy Burst on AP). Now you just get this one ability which is massive overkill on heat. It is much more managable with two moderate heat reducing options.

As for number of abilities. Powertechs already don't have that many abilities (they already lost Rocket Blast and Unload in earlier purges), so you can totally get away with keeping them seperate.

I'd also like for Hydraulics to be basline for all PTs. It's just such a vital ability, both for mobility and class identity. Make Deadly Onslaught and optional choice instead, that ability is much less vital to class identity, but is an ability you'd like to pick for AoE damage.