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hargrave

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Open Pvp should be only for the fun of it. it means, puting the oposing faction out of the area...nothing else..... basic objectives

 

u PvP because u find it more exciting than killing Npc's not to gather stuff and u "daylies"

 

Some ppl dont care about them....

 

You have other controlled enviroments to do another kind of compettive pvp

 

Sadly, most ppl cant forget about grinding, ask for incentives etc....

 

Sadly they pay for a game and cant find the way to enjoy it but they trully can find a way to complain

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Cool, a post from BW...

 

As for ideas about how to make open world pvp better... A third faction, period.

 

Ask anyone that played WAR how well open world pvp works with just two imbalances factions.

 

Beyond that it'll obviously need good incentive, not something you can get any other way. But if you have the incentive and the populations stay imbalanced then the weaker faction is just going to whine and quit.

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I had a random thought, this is not remotely fleshed out, I literally just had it, but what about a sort of RvR system similar to what existed in DAoC (I played this a long time ago so maybe it changed since I quit but this I what I remember)

 

Each faction (true there were three) faction had their own back yard. They had bases, artifact keeps, and choke points (wall).

 

What if you change that into a sort of Massive fleet battle. You battle across various ships to gain control of their systems (maybe need to control bridge, engineering, and weapons) to turn auto mated defenses to your side. You have to hop ship to ship (like different taxi point, maybe a choke point). Have a ship that is unreachable, basically your safe spawn point. Make controlling your ships easier to gain control the close to your main ship they are.

 

Example. Republic Spawn Ship - Republic Main Ships - Small Republic Ships - Repub Merc Ships - Imp Merc Ships - Small Imp Ships - Imp Main Ships - Imp Spawn Ship.

 

 

Could be there are more than one in any teir. Gaining control of systems on a Merc Ship is equally hard for either faction. Small Ships are easier to own faction, Main Ships are very easy to gain control for own faction.

 

I have no idea if this works, but could it be refined to work?

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I like the DAOC model myself

1. have a relic base, capture relic for small 3% bonus to healing or dps,

2, defend relic at our base.

3. cut taxi ride to relic bases buy taking small outposts that can be defended buy small groups.( this draws out small groups to farm )

4. choke points a must.

 

what make this work so well is the 3% bonus to heals or dps also help in PvE.

This brings out the people that just PvE to help get the relic ( then they go do a flash point on hard mode.) they have some skin in the game to come help defend relic.

Edited by SirRowdy
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Of course world PvP is being thrown out - nothing about the game was designed with world PvP in mind.

 

I disagree completely. If you look at most of the videos from the show season last year, it is clear that Bioware was marketing PvP a great deal.

 

The problem that Bioware has is that they fail to deliver.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the BW lead design team meant to include a fully fleshed out and immersive pvp experience since the very beginning of the game. They even hired the Mythic team who's experience revolves around pvp-centric games (DAOC, Warhammer).

 

They just flat out failed, especially with Ilum. What we see now is an admittance that Ilum is horribly flawed and a resolution to improve it at some future date. I doubt anyone is holding their breath.

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I had a random thought, this is not remotely fleshed out, I literally just had it, but what about a sort of RvR system similar to what existed in DAoC (I played this a long time ago so maybe it changed since I quit but this I what I remember)

 

Each faction (true there were three) faction had their own back yard. They had bases, artifact keeps, and choke points (wall).

 

What if you change that into a sort of Massive fleet battle. You battle across various ships to gain control of their systems (maybe need to control bridge, engineering, and weapons) to turn auto mated defenses to your side. You have to hop ship to ship (like different taxi point, maybe a choke point). Have a ship that is unreachable, basically your safe spawn point. Make controlling your ships easier to gain control the close to your main ship they are.

 

Example. Republic Spawn Ship - Republic Main Ships - Small Republic Ships - Repub Merc Ships - Imp Merc Ships - Small Imp Ships - Imp Main Ships - Imp Spawn Ship.

 

 

Could be there are more than one in any teir. Gaining control of systems on a Merc Ship is equally hard for either faction. Small Ships are easier to own faction, Main Ships are very easy to gain control for own faction.

 

I have no idea if this works, but could it be refined to work?

 

This is a cool idea, would take a lot of thought to make it combat-ready, but I like it.

 

I was thinking something like this - Central Space Station Grants Buff. Ops must dock with the space station and access something to achieve the buff. They start spawning on a cruiser a good distance away. Once they have the buff, they must defend both the central location, and their ship, which is now docked with the station and can be attacked by the enemy by planting bombs on the docking tubes, sending them back to the far away start point on their main ship with no chance to respawn in the center.

 

Keeping your ship docked by defending the docking tubes would keep you able to respawn on the space station to defend your buff. It would help combat the "Zerg" mentality by making whoever controlled the buff have to split their force in two, or risk losing the buff. It wouldn't completely prevent it, but hopefully would be enough to discourage it.

 

This central space station would be very large - possibly even a ship-killing/planet razing sized weapon capable of doing something more than a buff.

 

I was thinking having the faction in control of it slowly move in range of the enemy fleet (very Star Warsy) the longer they held it. If they could hold it for a long time, say, an hour straight, they blow up the enemy fleet, making the zone reset, but also providing a small faction-wide buff to something, and a broadcast message in chat stating that the Republic or Empire has won the battle of XXXX.

 

Of course, ideally, you'd have to have a third faction or have factional balance better addressed, and/or remove any and all gear ties from it, or else it would just become another Ilum.

 

Ilum didn't work mainly because it was tied to gear acquisition, IMO. Since gear acquisition is currently the only point of the game until we get fun RvR, people were more inclined to figure out ways to exploit it to get the best gear than to actually fight each other and care about who wins or loses.

Edited by AstralProjection
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This is a cool idea, would take a lot of thought to make it combat-ready, but I like it.

 

I was thinking something like this - Central Space Station Grants Buff. Ops must dock with the space station and access something to achieve the buff. They start spawning on a cruiser a good distance away. Once they have the buff, they must defend both the central location, and their ship, which is now docked with the station and can be attacked by the enemy by planting bombs on the docking tubes, sending them back to the far away start point on their main ship with no chance to respawn in the center.

 

Keeping your ship docked by defending the docking tubes would keep you able to respawn on the space station to defend your buff. It would help combat the "Zerg" mentality by making whoever controlled the buff have to split their force in two, or risk losing the buff. It wouldn't completely prevent it, but hopefully would be enough to discourage it.

 

Of course, ideally, you'd have to have a third faction or have factional balance better addressed, and/or remove any and all gear ties from it, or else it would just become another Ilum.

 

Ilum didn't work mainly because it was tied to gear acquisition, IMO. Since gear acquisition is currently the only point of the game until we get fun RvR, people were more inclined to figure out ways to exploit it to get the best gear than to actually fight each other and care about who wins or loses.

 

If the fleet idea were only for PvP, nothing else, no daily PvE at all, what if the time to complete objectives, scaled with how many people of your faction were there. Since the zone is only PvP, the more people you have, the longer it takes, or the harder it gets for objectives to complete.

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You can disagree all you want. They said one thing and did another. They did NOT design for world PvP.

 

I think you missed my point. In the software world you have a designer. And then you have a developer. Two different people/teams.

 

The game designer says, "Make an immersive pvp experience that has the following elements."

 

The game developer codes and says, "Here you go, I hope you like it."

 

The game player says, "Ilum failed miserably and you should fire your game designers and developers. You should have also chosen a more robust software engine. Hasta la vista."

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If the fleet idea were only for PvP, nothing else, no daily PvE at all, what if the time to complete objectives, scaled with how many people of your faction were there. Since the zone is only PvP, the more people you have, the longer it takes, or the harder it gets for objectives to complete.

 

Yeah, that could work as well, though the key to not pissing people off is always minor buffs/adjustments. Enough to feel like you get an improvement, but not so much that it makes it unfair or exploitable somehow.

 

I added a couple ideas to my post above as well that I didn't properly articulate. The broadcast message I mentioned usually is surprisingly helpful in shoring up people for world PVP.

 

It evokes that "Oh Crap, those Imps (Pubes) are at it again!" response, and anyone feeling "bored", heads over to stop it.

 

Very basic stuff. Telling the people on Ilum that one side controls Ilum with an annoying RW style message doesn't help.

 

Most of the Ilum messages that lag you to death could've been summed up with a big red "DERP!" that comes over your screen periodically.

 

Tell the people in a defense channel that someone controls a planet who are elsewhere, offplanet and a lot of times they start caring and come to join the fight.

 

The people engaged in battle already know how it's going, you don't need to tell me my side owns, or doesn't own, all five points.

Edited by AstralProjection
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Well heres the thing like my post said not many people were even aware of an ilum revamp...

 

There has been over 2 months of feedback and the majority of people want a warhammer/daoc type open world pvp set up.

 

Personally this is what i think will fix open world pvp

 

1. Put pvp bases on different planets. This will thin out the base camping and make pvp more fun both sides (the reps especially)

 

2. We need base bosses and the ability to capture bases (from the inside) base bosses need to have like 120k morale (the base boss should drop champ bags and or tokens.You can even have a daily of taking bases like this

 

retake ilum

 

Capture and kill ilum base bosses (0/10)

bonus kill attacking/defending players inside the base (0/50)

 

3. Large scale fights I.E gabes 100vs100 comment. Ilum is way to laggy and low fps (this is bieng worked on as far as i know}

 

Ilum needs to be fixed/redisgned in 1.2 people have waited for years for this game and are tired of waiting. Myself included i do understand that things take time to do but we have gw2 around the corner and its offering realm vs realm and daoc type pvp in "beta" i might add. Sure its possible it could tank but if it offers that pvp people are screaming for here what do you think will happen? Ilum was advertised as having 100vs100 and large scale epic battles this is not the case.

 

If this isnt adressed in 1.2 and i hope it is i see myself quitting and bieng done with mmo's to be honest and i know your saying the quit card doesnt work with bioware well maybe not but when you have a large playerbase quit that is on here giving you endless feedback not here anymore and gone to gw2 or just flat out left it may not mean much but thats 15 bucks less a month that you will be getting from a player base that is looking for open world pvp.

 

Look at it from our view stephen this game has been in development for years people have been waiting for years and now we get the game and we have gabe up on stage saying 100v100 and ilum is what it is. We then have james ohlen saying we have the best pvp team and then we have 1.1 and ilums current state...I apreciate that its bieng looked into but i sure hope this eta is 1.2 and i sure hope this rework/redisgn is what people have been asking for the last 2 months

 

Thanks for posting stephen lets hope this "eta" is soon....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ilum is being deprecated in Game Update 1.2. The Open World PvP area on Ilum will still be present in 1.2, but rewards previously gained in Ilum will be available in Warzones and that's where we expect the bulk of PvP to take place for now.

 

As we said during the Guild Summit, the PvP team is 'going back to the drawing board' with Ilum. That means they want to rework it to be fun and engaging. We accept there are issues with the current design and want to ensure that what we end up with is enjoyable for PvP fans. We have no ETA on when a redesigned Ilum might be available, but when we do have more news, we'll share it.

 

The PvP team definitely monitors these Forums and would love to see constructive feedback on Open World PvP and how you feel it could be improved. They have their own ideas, of course, and they've read many of the posts here but more feedback is always welcome.

Edited by hargrave
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Ideas for Open world PvP: Completely stolen from that *other* game---- Original Alteraac Valley.

 

Why AV? I'm sure the majority of old school people who played the original AV can already agree that it was wow's finest battleground achievement for massive battles. It wasn't until they bled everything out of it (Dumbed it down) that it became non-fun and just another place to get honor.

 

The original AV contained:

1)Interaction of PVE npcs that helped in the battle at hand and offered group buffs. There were multiple layers of this that players had to fight for all over the map.

-Each side had to farms scraps of metal/armor from player kills to bolster their defenses/offenses.

-You also had to send players to the far reaches of the enemy base to farm specific animals that would eventually lead to a calvary of sorts that would -charge- to the enemy stronghold (worg riders/ram riders)

-Air support. If I remember correctly, this was when you saved certain npcs who were locked up at the bases of towers. Freeing them allowed for aerial bombardments at certain locations.

-God Summonings. Easily the most fun (and usually meant the alliance QQ'ing about their stupid tree god being kited by a solo hunter). A major boss fight for the other side to have to reckon with.

-Holding the mines and killing the "boss" in there lead to a bonus as well.

-Class specific adventures: Only people that played the original AV knew about this one, but the horde base entrance // alliance bridge used to have land minds in front of them that only rogues could disarm. Trying to charge through them usually meant instant death for everyone so rogues had specific purpose aside from animal slayings for mount harnesses.

 

All of the above were PvE elements mixed into a PvP environment which -encouraged- pvp'ers to slay each other.

1)Take the guy farming the harnesses for example: The other team would always have to leave a few behind to ensure that this advantage didn't occur. This lead to small skirmishes between the tiny farm groups.

2)Take the air commanders. After they were "rescued", those commanders then needed an escort back because the enemy team could just kill them so they never made it back to base. Those protection patrols always saw opposition until the commander was safely past your front line.

3)The God Summoning area: This was a huge spot of PvP battles on both sides. The summoning took a specific amount of players so if a group went to challenge them, there was a good sized fight.

4) The riders: This usually turned the battle back towards an enemy base, players would mount up and ride with the train of death and of course, more battles would occur.

 

The battles of AV lasted for days on most servers and were loads of fun. (And then they changed the format and everyone hated it to the point that it was only played during *bonus* weekends)

 

In order for Bioware to make Ilum work, they'd need to incorporate more REASONS for the world pvp. If the imperials or the Republic hold a certain area, they should get buffs or bonuses for having them. Something that will give specific purpose to actually go there and fight. Wintergrasp/tol barad had raid instances that were only available to whomever controlled the areas, this is an example of a bonus/reason for winning.

 

At the same time, having multiple "side pvp areas" that inevitably lead to your factions victory is absolutely essential. Have each of these massive wars start every 2 hours from when the last team won its victory. While the "Winning" team holds the area, give objectives for the losing team to still be able to accomplish. Something like sabotage missions that slow the resource creation or valor gains from the opposing faction. This would encourage the losing team to stick around, even though defeated, to be a thorn in the winners sides and have to be guarded against.

 

An example: Say PVP raid bosses are spawned for the "winning" team to go at which drops some form of pvp loot. The enemy team could have missions that will bolster the PVP raid boss so it's not easily farmable. (Or you could just let the losing team be able to heal/protect the boss... that way they have to be dealt with) The respawn area for the enemies would have to be a good distance away to prevent respawn zergs from allowing the winning team to accomplish the kill, but still. It gives reason to still PVP and be there for some kind of End Game purpose.

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Given BioWare's responses to faction imbalance so far (making more Warzones multi-faction, and thus increasing whatever imbalances already exist), I don't see how open world-PvP will ever work. They're basically going to have to do some kind of instancing in order to keep the more populous side from dominating any sort of PvP they can come up with.
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you cant same faction open world pvp and even if they wanted to we have outlaws den already.

 

The faction imbalance is all about wookies/alien races pvp is paying for that oversight. They claim it would cost to much to make wookies playable and no one would relate to playing as a wookie LOL. I wish thier was a poll about how many people would play wookies if they could. That was a huge screw up and its whats causing the faction imbalance i think. They could improve the storylines for rep side but even still

 

The legacy system is going to piss off people more then its going to be positive. Thier not looking at long term solutions for it

 

Everyone is already ************ about same faction warzones already and were supose to go this way for months? On top of it were getting a new one that we still cant choose...

 

I dont know i have bad feeling about all this but my guy tells me 1.2 will be worse then 1.1. Just wait till everyone has force choke and pureblood sith jedis lolz. Sigh...to say the least

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I knew things would be tough when StephenReid posted earlier in a post that they were surprised how popular pvp was. As for fixes, its not rocket science.

 

1) Make open world kills have a reward. anywhere. on any planet. (if need be within 5 lvls) (Absolutely the stupidest thing about this game currently)

 

2) Have weeklies that send all players to a planet under contention. ie this week Hoth. next week Corelia. Have drops as rewards, valor as rewards, gear drops, coin drops, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

 

3) Have drop ships in the fleets that take you straight to the staging area.

 

4) Use NPCs like WAR that control and hold objectives so they aren't easily traded.

 

ITS NOT THAT FRICKING HARD FOLKS. Could be up and running within a month.

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I knew things would be tough when StephenReid posted earlier in a post that they were surprised how popular pvp was. As for fixes, its not rocket science.

 

1) Make open world kills have a reward. anywhere. on any planet. (if need be within 5 lvls) (Absolutely the stupidest thing about this game currently)

Not as simple as you think. If this were the case, you'd have Battlemasters farming Correlia and Voss. That, of course, would be terrible for the 45-49 crowd.

 

The single biggest problem BW has with their pvp design is that it's all gear based.

 

PvP in SWTOR should be renamed Gear vs. Gear.

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Ilum is being deprecated in Game Update 1.2. The Open World PvP area on Ilum will still be present in 1.2, but rewards previously gained in Ilum will be available in Warzones and that's where we expect the bulk of PvP to take place for now.

 

As we said during the Guild Summit, the PvP team is 'going back to the drawing board' with Ilum. That means they want to rework it to be fun and engaging. We accept there are issues with the current design and want to ensure that what we end up with is enjoyable for PvP fans. We have no ETA on when a redesigned Ilum might be available, but when we do have more news, we'll share it.

 

The PvP team definitely monitors these Forums and would love to see constructive feedback on Open World PvP and how you feel it could be improved. They have their own ideas, of course, and they've read many of the posts here but more feedback is always welcome.

 

See Dark Age of Camelot frontiers. The closer to that it is, the better it will be.

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I avoid pvp for a few reasons:

 

1. Often due to my own misunderstanding of proper technique/method. Please understand, many players are new to the MMO genre. Is it possible a tutorial is appropriate? ...huttball for example is rather unique for MMO's.

 

2. Some classes are rather impervious to damage; this is working as intended. Others that don light armor and spec as healers are easily sliced-thru like warm butter. Is there balance missing?

 

3. I will make a short reference to hunter-class from the World of Warcraft for this next reason. Hunters have a companion that taunts mobs away from the player in pve; in pvp, the hunter was expected to be able to slaughter most enemies, which due to skillset was easily accomplished versus most pvp players.

 

Essentially, that concept was converted and used to create all the player/companion combinations in SWTOR. With slight nudges still needed here and there, it seems to work great. So, why drop companions for pvp? Light/medium healing players/companions seem to be a bit too easy to gang up on i.e. they are not tanks, but I almost always become so in pvp. (Look its a healer/easy target, everybody attack him first.)

 

4. PvP Gear sets take a very, very long time to acquire. Comparatively, rakata gear drops like candy in EV/KP ops. Expertise is likely the most glaring of issues; though I seriously doubt expertise is the primary issue I am experiencing.

 

It could be for any one of the reasons above or a combination of all why I do not succeed in pvp. But I enjoy pvp when winning, which only happens on the rare occasion (i.e. once per month).

Edited by Holytoe
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Warhammer got guild keeps right and public quest right.

 

Agreed, pvp in warhammer taking a keep was fun, exciting, and almost always a challenge... due to the timers the defending forces had time to rally troops, so to speak.

 

Somehow, the skill/ability design allowed a healer to be more successful in warhammer online pvp than in swtor pvp.

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I think it is shameful that they are basically shutting Ilum down, transitioning to WZs and not fixing Ilum. People are sick of the 3 WZs. And you want to make them the focus of pvp? Even adding one more isnt going to cut it when you still cant pick which one you want...

 

THis is very disappointing. About as disappointing as the faction imbalances and BWs cluelessness, as reflected by Zoeller, as to why its such a problem and why it should have never of happened in a star wars IP MMO the way BW has allowed it to happpen.

 

The republic stories sux compared to the sith side. Its like BW cant write a story with a hero and make it engaging. They can only write for antihero's. THen you have the ridiculous consular animations of rocks and pebbles. And the lame species choices on the rep side. Mirialans? Who cares. And Miralukans are nice, except most of their masks look like they were made by a caveman and belong on a shaman, not a jedi. There is not one thing that is cooler or more interesting on the republic side.

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I like the DAOC model myself

1. have a relic base, capture relic for small 3% bonus to healing or dps,

2, defend relic at our base.

3. cut taxi ride to relic bases buy taking small outposts that can be defended buy small groups.( this draws out small groups to farm )

4. choke points a must.

 

what make this work so well is the 3% bonus to heals or dps also help in PvE.

This brings out the people that just PvE to help get the relic ( then they go do a flash point on hard mode.) they have some skin in the game to come help defend relic.

 

Agreed -

 

Giving a global PvE incentive to the faction that currently controls an open-world PvP objective (or majority of smaller objectives) is a good way to get people out into the open.

 

The global buff is a good one. But need not be the only incentive. Personally, my favorite incentive was the ability to gain access to a special PvP-enabled PvE area with higher-than-average yields on resources from farming various monsters and NPCs and special boss-NPCs with end-game-level loot. DAOC called this area Darkness Falls.

 

One of the best things about Darkness Falls was that each faction always wanted to have access to it to PvE in. However, the PvPers also wanted to get DF back to their faction so that they could enter it themselves and clear out all the carebear PvE people who were just farming. Whenever the area changed hands, many people currently PvE'ing inside would quickly run back to their faction's entrance area, gathering to mount a defence against the first wave of opposing forces. At times, these "stair defence" battles would go on for hours. Many of my favorite memories of this game are of these moments.

 

But that's not all -

 

Logging out inside of Darkness Falls was always a gamble, because one would never know if their faction would still own it when they logged back in. For the solo-pvp'er, this presented a unique opportunity to engage in guerilla-style PvP against potentially unweary opponents. Typically, only one would only be able to gank one or two people before word got out that an opposing player was in the area and a posse formed to get them. But still, heck of a lot of fun.

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