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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?

ZenMondo's Avatar


ZenMondo
03.01.2012 , 09:39 PM | #891
It occurs to me that this would be less of an issue if there was a mechanism for player character courtship and partnering. I remember in Star Wars Galaxies you were able to do so by exchanging rings (For Rebel players the ring to use was the Rebel Signet Ring which had nice buffs and if you used it to marry someone it never took damage) (come to think of it I think you could actually marry two people if you wore a ring on each hand).

But the roleplay in this game is not really geared for player to player. They have these (very engaging!) story lines but we are a bit on the rails.

This game feels like a multiclass KOTOR 3 where someone can swoop in and kill your objective before you get there. Ofcourse KOTOR 3 would not have a subscription fee.

I have paid my sixty dollars entry fee and my continued subscription for the privilege of posting in these forums. But why was I given half a game?

Not the only Bisexual in space -- get used to it.

AquaSky's Avatar


AquaSky
03.01.2012 , 09:39 PM | #892
Quote: Originally Posted by Suaine View Post
As for personality, morality and sexuality - what makes you think one is any more flexible or fluid than the other? Personality is actually one of the most stable features of the human mind. Self-defined sexuality can change so much based on life experience and growth. Neither are really comparable. Some people have the most rigid moral principles and attitudes you can imagine and they will not stray from their position even in the face of facts or overwhelming opposition.

The toggle is mechanically unnecessary, but technically challenging to implement, if it should be done well. What you are really asking is not just not to see flirt prompts, a consideration beyond what people who want SGRAs have right now, what you are asking is that the implementation be further delayed so a toggle can be built. This isn't a compromise - we have already been made to compromise by waiting for months, and who knows how much longer - this is asking for special treatment.
As far as personality is concerned, I would argue that there is a great deal of fluidity. If you subscribe to role theory, a person's behavior is very context-specific. You wouldn't behave the same way around your best friend as you would your grandmother, for example. We adapt our behaviors very much to suit our environment - what is appropriate at a frat party isn't so appropriate at Sunday dinner. While some traits are fairly stable, there's a great deal of flux as one develops.

Where morality comes into play, there's also a fair bit of ambiguity. If you've tried to play through entirely light or dark side, it's a real challenge not to gain at least a few points from the opposing faction, because some decisions fall well into the grey area. Good people sometimes do bad things, and bad people can do good as well. Principles are one thing, actions are another.

I agree with you that the way one defines their sexuality can change through their lifetime. People can change or experiment. For the most part, however, by the time they're well into adulthood, people have a fairly set preference (be it hetero, bi, or homosexual). I don't know too many people who (aside from kidding around) would say "You know, I'm really not into guys, but I'll make an exception in this case." People tend to find out what they like and go with that.

I don't think that implementing some means of gender preference would be hard at all. The game already does that based on the opposite gender of the player's character. So instead of automatically assigning your romance options based on your gender, it would instead ask you. I'm not a developer, but if they were working on implementing this new content, it doesn't seem like it would delay the release of that to allow a player choice.

Nozybidaj's Avatar


Nozybidaj
03.01.2012 , 09:46 PM | #893
Quote: Originally Posted by Uluain View Post
I do wonder whether we will come across better as a group of individuals asking for the same thing each in our own ways, or as an obviously aligned cabal. I think the strategy is sound. I am questioning the tactics.
How's that worked out for us the last 4 weeks?

I don't really care it was just a suggestion. Anyone that wants to copy/paste my question or tweak it to their liking feel free. Whatever you do use the quotes from Ray and Greg and link to the interview that was given.

I hope that at least one person on the BWAustin team cringes and fears for his job every time he sees those quotes and that interview linked if for nothing else than to assure me that there is a Karmic balance left in the universe counterbalancing how I feel every time I am presented with flirt options in game knowing I'll never see one I can use.

natashina's Avatar


natashina
03.01.2012 , 09:58 PM | #894
Quote: Originally Posted by Lurkz View Post
It's actually not a US military thing, we say "Ma'am" to senior female members. If someone had said "Sir" to me when I was in the AF I'd have wondered what they were smoking to not realize I was a woman. Note: I'm really, really not doing this to be rude and I hope it doesn't come off that way.
Nah, no offense taken. It must be a local thing; I've heard male officers call female ones "Sir." I live right by BAF, but I've only run into officers off base. /shrug.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lurkz View Post
On to the topic at hand! (or at least one of the several)



That... would drive me bonkers. o.O Granted, this is the situation with Bowdaar on a smuggler (though you're not trying to romance him either) but for some reason it would throw me off if it was in a romance option companion.
Yeah, as much as the idea is intriguing, I'd rather have a companion that at least spoke Basic. While I can completely understand why some would want that as an option(lookin' at you, Blizz lovers ), it would kinda break the immersion for me if they didn't speak Basic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lurkz View Post
As for toggles of any sort. I could -accept- one at character creation but I would think it very unnecessary. And if it existed it better be the most robust selection possible. If they're going to make people choose there had better be an option for straight, gay, bi, AND asexual. If it was just "You must be straight or gay" that would irritate the hell outta me.
I agree. I think that there IF is a toggle, it should have 4 options. That being said, however, I'm pretty opposed to the idea of a toggle. I'd just prefer to ignore it. It was easy for me to do with Wonderbread(aka Quinn), so ignoring flirts seems like no big deal. Personally, the only toggle I'd like is to shut off my ugly companion helms, but that's another day for another thread.

ZenMondo's Avatar


ZenMondo
03.01.2012 , 09:58 PM | #895
Quote: Originally Posted by AquaSky View Post
I don't think that implementing some means of gender preference would be hard at all. The game already does that based on the opposite gender of the player's character. So instead of automatically assigning your romance options based on your gender, it would instead ask you. I'm not a developer, but if they were working on implementing this new content, it doesn't seem like it would delay the release of that to allow a player choice.
Well you admit you are not a developer. What we have now is a gender awareness in NPCs which allow for any personal pronouns to be correct as well conversation trees on who can [Flirt] with who. From a developer's point of view the conversation trees are probably gender blind beyond the first branch where you can take a flirty response.

So what you propose is not as simple as flipping a switch somewhere in the computer bank. Each character's attributes are stored in some sort of database. Each of these takes a finite amount of space to store. If we were to tack on an orientation field in this database (which in some peoples preferences has 3 possible settings, some 4 but I imagine it can get even more complicated if we added things like "you like Twi'Leks but not Zabraks" but I digress at the least 3 different settings) So we have to have these definitions stored somewhere and then for each and every character and a field holding this value. Now I don't know how they have the character database on the backend optimized but the addition of an attribute may be handled elegantly on one case, on the other end of the spectrum, it could lead to all sorts of balancing issues and latency (doubtful, but worst case scenario) With the number of players times the number of characters this is no small amount of data to be added.

Then you have to add an orientation awareness into all NPCs (a software GAYDAR not even the Force could be so accurate) This would not be a substitute for gender awareness which is already there, but a whole other set of conditional statements to govern the availability of certain conversation trees. When nesting conditionals it does not become twice as complicated per nest it becomes exponentially more complicated per nest. This would likely introduce any number of bugs which all the people who come in this thread and complain that there are more important things to work on will come back to topics in the Story and Lore subboard where we are discussing romance and blame the whole new set of bugs on us.

Now I hope you see why it would be much simpler for NPCs to be orientation-blind and just flirt with anyone.

Not the only Bisexual in space -- get used to it.

natashina's Avatar


natashina
03.01.2012 , 10:00 PM | #896
Quote: Originally Posted by ZenMondo View Post
Well you admit you are not a developer. What we have now is a gender awareness in NPCs which allow for any personal pronouns to be correct as well conversation trees on who can [Flirt] with who. From a developer's point of view the conversation trees are probably gender blind beyond the first branch where you can take a flirty response.

So what you propose is not as simple as flipping a switch somewhere in the computer bank. Each character's attributes are stored in some sort of database. Each of these takes a finite amount of space to store. If we were to tack on an orientation field in this database (which in some peoples preferences has 3 possible settings, some 4 but I imagine it can get even more complicated if we added things like "you like Twi'Leks but not Zabraks" but I digress at the least 3 different settings) So we have to have these definitions stored somewhere and then for each and every character and a field holding this value. Now I don't know how they have the character database on the backend optimized but the addition of an attribute may be handled elegantly on one case, on the other end of the spectrum, it could lead to all sorts of balancing issues and latency (doubtful, but worst case scenario) With the number of players times the number of characters this is no small amount of data to be added.

Then you have to add an orientation awareness into all NPCs (a software GAYDAR not even the Force could be so accurate) This would not be a substitute for gender awareness which is already there, but a whole other set of conditional statements to govern the availability of certain conversation trees. When nesting conditionals it does not become twice as complicated per nest it becomes exponentially more complicated per nest. This would likely introduce any number of bugs which all the people who come in this thread and complain that there are more important things to work on will come back to topics in the Story and Lore subboard where we are discussing romance and blame the whole new set of bugs on us.

Now I hope you see why it would be much simpler for NPCs to be orientation-blind and just flirt with anyone.
Ah yes, another QFT.

ZenMondo's Avatar


ZenMondo
03.01.2012 , 10:05 PM | #897
Quote: Originally Posted by natashina View Post
Ah yes, another QFT.
I was just riffing on back of the envelope for that scenario. I am a programmer by trade, with 34 years experience (Its a bit of a cheat I wrote my first computer program when I was 6 years old) But you would be surprised at just how difficult what someone would think is an easy task is. Then there is the old trap of any good programmer of giving a customer exactly what they asked for instead of what they really wanted.

Not the only Bisexual in space -- get used to it.

AquaSky's Avatar


AquaSky
03.01.2012 , 10:06 PM | #898
Quote: Originally Posted by ZenMondo View Post
Now I hope you see why it would be much simpler for NPCs to be orientation-blind and just flirt with anyone.
At the same time, without knowing exactly how the TOR dialogue mechanism works behind the scenes, all we can do is speculate as to the relative difficulty of allowing for orientation. Having a character that's heterosexual is the default as-is, so unless they're revamping the mechanics entirely, it shouldn't be difficult to opt for opposite gender flirts. I would think the more difficult proposition is opting exclusively for same-gender content, due to the pronoun issues and such.

Again, without being on the BW dev team, all of this is speculation anyhow.

ZenMondo's Avatar


ZenMondo
03.01.2012 , 10:11 PM | #899
Quote: Originally Posted by AquaSky View Post
Again, without being on the BW dev team, all of this is speculation anyhow.
That reminds me, think they are hiring?

Not the only Bisexual in space -- get used to it.

MusedMoose's Avatar


MusedMoose
03.01.2012 , 10:37 PM | #900
Quote: Originally Posted by AquaSky View Post
At the same time, without knowing exactly how the TOR dialogue mechanism works behind the scenes, all we can do is speculate as to the relative difficulty of allowing for orientation. Having a character that's heterosexual is the default as-is, so unless they're revamping the mechanics entirely, it shouldn't be difficult to opt for opposite gender flirts. I would think the more difficult proposition is opting exclusively for same-gender content, due to the pronoun issues and such.
While I obviously haven't worked with whatever dialogue system they use for TOR, I did apply for a BioWare writing job several years back. (If it had worked out, I'd probably be a writer on TOR, since the job was in Austin, go figure, eh?) To apply, I had to write dialogue in the NWN module creation program.

Writing dialogue in that thing could get ridiculously complicated. You could set flags for other interactions, check the PC's bags for items to trigger different conversations, so on and so forth. I can't speak for the devs, but if I was working with a similar system and someone told me I had to create a new kind of flag that would affect a significant number of conversations in the game, including the companions who probably have more dialogue per character than any other NPCs, well... My reaction would get censored in this forum to the point where no one would be able to figure out what I'd said, let's leave it at that.

My long-standing guess is that the currently existing companions will be made hero-sexual, because that requires the least work on the devs' part. I'm guessing that the current romance dialogues are set to trigger only if the PC's gender is marked as different from the companion's. Therefore, the dialogue-programming part of adding in the SGRs would be a simple task of having a similar set of dialogues set to trigger if the PC's gender matches the companion's.

Not that I'm discounting the amount of work that creating those dialogues would take, but...

Quote: Originally Posted by ZenMondo View Post
That reminds me, think they are hiring?
As a matter of fact...

http://www.bioware.com/careers/austin