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7.0 Changes are NOT what was promised.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
7.0 Changes are NOT what was promised.

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
09.19.2021 , 11:28 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Strathkin View Post
Though I've always been surprised they only recently increased Tech Fragments up to 11,000 (max) up from 10,000. Maybe it's time to rethink 12,000 (max) perhaps...
The increase from 10K to 11K was simply because they added a thing that costs *exactly* 10K, and people rightly complained that buying this thing would inevitably cause them to waste Frags because of the impossibility of hitting *exactly* 10K without going over.

(I say "rightly", but many of the actual complaints were aggressively hyperbolic.)
Something you find difficult is a lesson on how to play better, not a punishment for playing badly.
To go to Belsavis, you must go to Belsavis.
Latest patch notes at http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes

Strathkin's Avatar


Strathkin
09.19.2021 , 04:42 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Aberd View Post
Yes, I do. I actually like and support the separation of the combat style from the class.
In their live stream from July 1st, Charles Wood very very briefly mentioned address class balance...

For example, Jedi Guardian at level 70 has to choose from 3 active abilities. As a tank you choose from Awe, Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz. That is a great big ***. ... And there are fights such as Red in Dxun where I will use at least 2 of those; Saber Reflect is used on a regular basis and Blade Blitz is most useful to get out of Acid Pool. Then for the next two fights, Awe is useful for quick stunning groups of adds.

Then when I play a Vigilance DPS Knight I have to choose between Enure, Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz. This hurts the team also. I have to forego a DCD or two and to a get out stupid quick ability. Those are life saving / ops wipe saving abilities. If you think a DPS "doesn't need" those, consider this:
  • Tanks loose aggro.
  • Bosses drop Aggro.
  • Tanks die.
DPS needs those DCDs.
I mean honestly their problem is more about trying to make Class Balance a thing, it never works in almost ANY environment ever created; and all it manages to succeed at is greatly upsetting users in the process. Because each Class has different advantages/disadvantages, so do little things slower over time! Those also cause far less friction. As you identified they started going down that road, yet again lost focus with maintaining it--takes longer to do yes, yet it also results it better long term results.

However while I was OPEN to Combat Styles originally, now I wish they'd take it back. I'd press the UNDO button if I worked for EA right now... ...especially having to choose between several favorite abilities, that made each class work and also be unique.

"I wished they limited choice to two 2 of the former 3 abilities" --dependant upon which Combat Style you choose!

As you've already stated, this limited choice of popular abilities effects several class of characters, not just one; while one in particular won't even notice change, is it a choice of abilities no one used and is buffed a lot more.

Mostly very disappointed, hopefully they manage to win a lot more of us back before this launches...
A constant supporter of Baby Yoda!

fushnchips's Avatar


fushnchips
09.19.2021 , 05:09 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Strathkin View Post
I mean honestly their problem is more about trying to make Class Balance a thing, it never works in almost ANY environment ever created; and all it manages to succeed at is greatly upsetting users in the process. Because each Class has different advantages/disadvantages, so do little things slower over time, those also cause far less friction. As you identified they started going down that road, yet again lost focus with maintaining it-takes longer to do yes, yet it also results it better long term results.

However while I was OPEN to Combat Styles originally, now I wish they'd take it back. I'd press the UNDO button if I worked for EA right now... ...especially having to choose between several favorite abilities, that made each class work and also be unique. As you've already stated, this choice effects several class of characters, not just one; while one in particular won't even notice choice, and is buffed a lot more.

Mostly very disappointed, hopefully they manage to win a lot more of us back before this launches...
the problem is PvP these are what they are trying to change all the stuns, defense for it's not a PvE thing at all it could have been easily dealt with having a PvE tree and PvP that way they can isolate stuff at a much easier pace instead of hurting the other play type.
Will 7.0 be fun or a flop ?

robwettengel's Avatar


robwettengel
09.19.2021 , 06:40 PM | #24
Separating PVE and PVP is something that should have been done years ago. Can it be done with the existing game engine? If the engine supports it, why hasn't it been done? Is there a lot more infrastructure/programming needed that we aren't aware of? Is there some code that is too delicate that is preventing a separation from being implemented? A two to three sentence explanation would probably suffice.

Separating the two strikes many of us as a no-brainer solution to the balance question. We already have code in the game that prohibits certain abilities and items from being used in PVP (rocket boost comes to mind). Why not keep all of the abilities but have a separate PVP and PVE databases. Power A does X damage in PVE (including HM, Ops), while in PVP Power A could do Y damage. Power B lasts for X seconds in PVE, and in PVP this Power B (pick your DCD) could last for X-Y%. How much would DCDs need to be reduced to reduce TTK in PVP? 25%? 50%? Have any Devs actually done that math?

Strathkin's Avatar


Strathkin
09.19.2021 , 07:47 PM | #25
----
Edited to include something I added to Guardian (Thread)
----

Quote: Originally Posted by fushnchips View Post
the problem is PvP these are what they are trying to change all the stuns, defense for it's not a PvE thing at all it could have been easily dealt with having a PvE tree and PvP that way they can isolate stuff at a much easier pace instead of hurting the other play type.
Yea I mean I like idea of having a diverse PvP Skill Tree, perhaps even limiting Tacticals to either PvE or PvP (only) as that's the only real way to address this! I just know I'm really not liking the vast majority of changes thus-far; despite Combat-Style seemed appealing previously, now you just have to give up far too much!

Quote: Originally Posted by Wolvel View Post
Not only can they not stand and fight in their current state but they also cannot run from the fight (removal of intercede, mad dash a choice)
Yea, they really hurt Guardian's overly bad... then I was thinking over the weekend, what else could I offer aside from what I wrote (above or before) to try and be constructive. Clearly they need better defensive abilities, yet that is obvious!

Still I think they are just asking too much, not that people can't ADJUST or ADAPT. It's for many classes, those 3 abilities were often CORE to the CLASS. I thought about this a lot this last weekend, then I realized something...

IF ONLY: (Constructive Part for them to RETHINK)

It wouldn't be so bad, if depending on the CLASS selected; you were limited to just 2 of the 3.
╘ it also require DEVs to adapt, just as much as they are expecting us too!
  1. That allow people at least some flexibly to adapt; having a PvP Skill Tree, separate from PvE.
  2. It also allow them to adjust, by limiting (most) Tacticals to PvE, or PvP, etc...
  3. Also giving most classes a choice between 2 of the 3 former abilities!
  4. They could slightly revise Passive's abilities to account for it; or (adapt) changes just to PvE, or PvP.
  5. Allows smaller changes, and seperates the two environments; as what works in each is very different.

Honestly, if they did that people wouldn't likely be as upset, cause right now they are!
A constant supporter of Baby Yoda!

Aberd's Avatar


Aberd
09.22.2021 , 03:14 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by robwettengel View Post
Separating PVE and PVP is something that should have been done years ago. Can it be done with the existing game engine? If the engine supports it, why hasn't it been done? Is there a lot more infrastructure/programming needed that we aren't aware of? Is there some code that is too delicate that is preventing a separation from being implemented? A two to three sentence explanation would probably suffice.

Separating the two strikes many of us as a no-brainer solution to the balance question. We already have code in the game that prohibits certain abilities and items from being used in PVP (rocket boost comes to mind). Why not keep all of the abilities but have a separate PVP and PVE databases. Power A does X damage in PVE (including HM, Ops), while in PVP Power A could do Y damage. Power B lasts for X seconds in PVE, and in PVP this Power B (pick your DCD) could last for X-Y%. How much would DCDs need to be reduced to reduce TTK in PVP? 25%? 50%? Have any Devs actually done that math?
You want to separate PvP from PvE? It was separate long ago. There was a PvP stat called Expertise which affected your defense and damage done to other players. But somewhere around 3.0 or maybe 4.0, BW removed Expertise. All the PvPers from that time can tell you if that was a good or bad idea; PvP is not really my thing so I don't really know if that was a good or bad move.
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

LordCamTheGreat's Avatar


LordCamTheGreat
09.22.2021 , 03:53 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Aberd View Post
You want to separate PvP from PvE? It was separate long ago. There was a PvP stat called Expertise which affected your defense and damage done to other players. But somewhere around 3.0 or maybe 4.0, BW removed Expertise. All the PvPers from that time can tell you if that was a good or bad idea; PvP is not really my thing so I don't really know if that was a good or bad move.
Honestly, PvP shouldn't be affected by your stats at all. Expertise isn't a way to balance PvP and PvE because all it does is make it so that one player with a higher stat does more damage than a player with a lower stat. That isn't balance - that's gatekeeping based on gear.

To actually separate PvP and PvE, passives, utilities/ability tree morphs, availability of certain abilities etc. would all need to be taken into account and balanced separately for each mode. Having a different gear stat doesn't change anything. On the other hand, having a set bonus or tactical that only works in PvE and another that only works in PvP would work.
Jack of all classes, master of some. Always remember that cake is a lie.

Aberd's Avatar


Aberd
09.22.2021 , 04:12 PM | #28
Specifically what I am not liking is the new "tree". Or rather the choices I am being forced to make, especially at higher levels. Reading through the feedback threads so far, this seems to be a common theme and not limited to the Jedi Knight, Agent or Sith Inquisitor (bugged to high heaven as it is).

What I've seen so far on the PTS is a pattern. The first couple "choice levels" (CL) we are presented with a choice between 3 passive (not something to put on an ability bar) abilities that directly affect a previously gained active (put on your bar) ability. I don't mind this.

The middle CLs you are given a choice between 1-2 active abilities and 1-2 passive abilities. Now you're forcing me into choices I don't like. I'm almost always going to go for an active ability for the control it gives me.

Then there are the high level CLs where you have to choose between 3 active abilities. I really don't like this. For every class BW has put on PTS so far, I currently use all three abilities I'm having to choose from. They may not be "core rotation" abilities, but I assure I use them all. When having to choose between active abilities it makes me feel like a low level character again, despite being max level.

My recommendation is to basically leave the discipline system as it is. Maybe give us new high level abilities that replace early game abilities to help prevent ability bloat. Review and modify the current utility tiers if we are to get another utility point(?). If anything needs a major overhaul I would say it is our current utilities. I've said it before that there are utilities that everyone takes (speed boosts) regardless of activity, and others that no-one takes. Take these low level choices being presented and work those into the current utility tree system. Change out some utilities to be more PvP centric and other more PvE focused.

Bright idea:
  1. Leave the number of utility points at 9
  2. Between each Tier add a passive ability choice
  3. After Tier 3 add another 3rd passive ability choice

At least with the current utility system we can choose which active abilities get buffed and to a limited extent how. For example: for my PT, there are certain fights in which I will go with all the utilities that buff Hydraulic Overrides (I call it my "super hydraulics" build, this includes reduced CD, longer duration, and increased speed utilities).

At the current rate of progress BW is not going to have time to develop and implement the "Load Out" or Advanced Class Choice system they promised, not if they want to release during the holidays (I'm sure EA is pressuring them into this time frame). At least not without having a dozen bugs in each.
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

ralphieceaser's Avatar


ralphieceaser
09.23.2021 , 06:51 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Aberd View Post
Then when I play a Vigilance DPS Knight I have to choose between Enure, Saber Reflect and Blade Blitz. This hurts the team also. I have to forego a DCD or two and to a get out stupid quick ability. Those are life saving / ops wipe saving abilities. If you think a DPS "doesn't need" those, consider this:
  • Tanks loose aggro.
  • Bosses drop Aggro.
  • Tanks die.
DPS needs those DCDs.
The solution in that problem is for the tank to play better and not die or lose aggro like that, not for the player to refuse to choose if they want mobility or survivability (that is a good choice because it asks the player what they value more, do you feel you need more mobility or you are good in that area without it so more survability is the way better choice for you)

Also you do realize by saying certain utilities are needed IN CASE those things happen, this means you are asking devs to design the game around the many many many ways, tanks or healers or even dps fail so you have an appropriate response to their failure?

That is simply something you cant do because those cases can be endless, so you focus on designing around each person performing their role to a DECENT level based on the difficulty of the content,(DECENT, never perfect level)and base the class design around that.

When stuff like that happens when a tank fails and you manage to kite or survive long enough through the DCDs that is not the design intend of the skills you are using, if you are using dcds to survive boss aggro or speed cds to kite, yeah you could have saved the raid by giving enough time for a brez but that was never the reason those skills exist in pve, dcds are created to deal with high burst situations and movement abilities exist to help you avoid mechanics.

You cannot go and say you want something to remain the same because of the unintended use of those skills, if anything that is a sign it should be removed to stop the unintended use from being normalized. Players always find ways to use skills in ways people dont think, its a great skill and I absolutely love the ability to be able to do some great plays and save a wipe but that does not make some skills MANDATORY or needed because that is not the reason they exist.

And please, people need to keep in mind that pve content is never balanced for perfect performance and that goes for pretty much all high end content in all mmorpgs, so you are rarely """forced""" to pick something for it, because the community, raid or raid leader BELIEVES it is mandatory, doesnt make it mandatory encounter wise, that is social pressure that sadly many people are not capable of ignoring.

As a person who likes both pve and pvp(Because of scaling being a thing unlike some other gear based pvp games) I agree that a reset in balance is kinda needed with some classes having a ridiculous amount of dcds and ways to survive, the current ability trees definitely need some work if they are to have a decent choice instead of (1 good for pvp, 1 good for pvp, 1 irrelevant or 1 great ability vs 2 meh abilities) but I completely support the idea behind it.

It is understandable that people who had and enjoys a lot of strong cds are not pleased, I am awaiting merc on pts to see how things are gonna go but I would not be surprised if some complain a lot about losing one of their many strong defensives, but this is done for a reason, to reset the advance class balance so in a sense you start new with a better base for the future

CraigOnXD's Avatar


CraigOnXD
09.24.2021 , 03:27 AM | #30
7.0 is a longterm step in the right direction. tweaks are still to come even tho i hope they dont change their direction just cuz some kids are crying their eyes out in these forums...honestly either adept or just leave the game
http://www.swtor.com/r/4K28JN

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