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7.0 Changes are NOT what was promised.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
7.0 Changes are NOT what was promised.

ralphieceaser's Avatar


ralphieceaser
09.28.2021 , 06:55 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
I would also recommend you have a look at Warcraft logs. Wow's talent tree for raid content is also cookie cutter for the vast majority of classes. However you can still see major differences in performance between average and great players fairly easily.
I am actively playing WoW rn and I can tell you that gap can be seeing very clearly even to this day, and that is coming from someone who plays the most non meta yet fun legendaries/specs and covenants and does 20s, bad players will always be visible no matter how meta they play because they follow guides and cant understand them.
And you are aware that wow classes have been prunned a lot since WoD, with only few weak flavor abilities returning in the last xpac (Often at the expense of previous utility, cough cough displacement gone for arcane due to alter time)

Yet as you have said, the skill differences are still quite enormous and obvious, most classes dont have 3-4 strong dcds, some barely have 1 good one, yet again skill differences are still there and quite enormous.


Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
Those differences are going to be reduced in 7.0 (not eliminated) - that is what happens when you reduce real time options. These are the PTS forums for swtor, right? I'm really not interested in references to other games unless the current situations mirror swtor's. Warcraft right now does not mirror where swtor's going in 7.0.
I would say wow does mirror where swtor is going cuz wow has gone through a serious amount of prunning yet skill differences are still quite enormous.


Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
The "thinking" part is going to be over in the first month or two of the expac. There's no new required coordination that doesn't happen right now - in fact there will be less because things that people can do now won't be available in 7.0. After a month or two, when people aren't really "thinking" anymore, people are going to get yelled at for not using google.
I am pretty sure he was referring to real time coordination and use of other utilities since dcds did dominate in importance and also extended the duration of pvp matches by a decent amount, some would argue too long.
I understand the value of many dcds and how at the hands of a good player it might make you extremely hard to kill but at the same time it does feel some classes have gone a little out of control in terms of defensives so I can absolutely understand the desire to clear the board and start fresh and try to balance things from there which is what I am ok with this.
A reset is always needed every now and then and it will definitely make the skill differences less in pvp at least since good players will no longer be able to be almost immortal in regs but I feel that isnt such a bad thing, you ll simply have to play better and smarter to survive as much as b4 without depending on some abilities that almost become a crutch for some, the difference might technically be less but it will still be enormous and WoW attests to that.
A wow related example would be how average players for example by playing the most meta broken specs are able to time 20s by brute forcing them with their spec's broken amounts of damage even though they repeatedly fail mechanics and wipe, playing meta for such people becomes a crutch and is what carries them through the content, not their skill.
In pvp obviously things are very different since sadly it means you have to depend on others being good since you no longer will be able to survive as much through good useage of dcds, which i absolutely agree does kinda suck, but I feel the value of a reset is a lot higher than my personal feelings on how much i enjoy being almost unkillable at times as a dps in regs


Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
That's why they made starter PVP gear better and easier and easier to get until they finally removed it completely and bolstered everyone that tries a little to have very comparable stats in most situations. The problem is that when bad players have bad experiences they tend to stop playing, only a few press on to get better especially when lots of people are yelling at them. BW loves their bad players.
Let's not pretend this is about skill when it comes to pvp, thankfully with the amount of dcds and utility this game has skill in pvp becomes pretty clear, good players are very hard to kill.
No offense but this is a little ironic to try to imply skill issues and then complain about swtor's fair pvp system where everyone is equal and skill is what decides a fight instead of higher ilvl.

That is why swtor is known for the far more fun and enjoyable pvp while WoW's pvp has gone to the trash bin since they keep trying to bring back gear>>>skill so now it is all about gear grind because it doesnt matter how good you are, you wont kill a mythic geared characters with your low ilvl set you just started with.

So at least that argument does not stand because if they truly cared about giving low skilled players an advantage so they can have fun and feel strong, they would go the WoW route where they would ask them to grind gear so they can 2 shot the players who are still in the process of trying to get said gear.

WaywardOne's Avatar


WaywardOne
09.29.2021 , 08:34 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by ralphieceaser View Post
And you are aware that wow classes have been prunned a lot since WoD, with only few weak flavor abilities returning in the last xpac [I](Often at the expense of previous utility, cough cough displacement gone for arcane due to alter time)
Much of Wow's pruning has been reversed. My current max level characters in Wow have very similar numbers of action bar buttons to my Swtor characters, some even have more. In 7.0 my level 80 Swtor knights on test right now have fewer buttons than their level max level counterparts had in 2012. And much fewer buttons than my Wow warrior has.

Wow also has a gear ladder that separates players/character's abilities, swtor's gearing is much easier unless you want the 300 augments that don't do much anyways.

ralphieceaser's Avatar


ralphieceaser
09.29.2021 , 07:16 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
Much of Wow's pruning has been reversed. My current max level characters in Wow have very similar numbers of action bar buttons to my Swtor characters, some even have more. In 7.0 my level 80 Swtor knights on test right now have fewer buttons than their level max level counterparts had in 2012. And much fewer buttons than my Wow warrior has.

Wow also has a gear ladder that separates players/character's abilities, swtor's gearing is much easier unless you want the 300 augments that don't do much anyways.
Bringing back pointless useless abilities like fire blast for frost/arcane mages did not add anything because you never use them because they dont fit with the spec, they ve done this with many specs just to create the illusion of bringing up old abilities and de-prunning. Most specs cuz maybe 1 useful ability from old, later time being one for mages, they havent done any major deprunning.

More importantly design wise WoW has nothing like swtor's ultra strong defensives we have right now so you cant really compare them in swtor's current form.
Mage for example has a strong immunity that doesnt let him attack, ice block, has a minor 20% damage reduction and a weak barrier, you can argue alter time is a defensive but anyone decent will spam purge it.
Hunters have again a strong immunity which doesnt let them attack in the form of turtle, a minor 20% damage reduction
Warlocks the most immobile class only have a baseline 40% damage reduction on a 3min cooldown which is why they often get trucked in pvp against melee
And so on for many other specs

Meanwhile merc and other classes have defensives that make them nigh immortal for the duration while also letting them attack, so as of right now, swtor has the far bigger and stronger dcds which can often be rotated because some specs have multiple of those god tier defensives.

So in 7.0, it would rly be turning more into wow, than less, well WoW with actual good pvp since wow's pvp has been a dumbsterfire for a while now.


And you seem to confuse skill with gear, there's a ton of bad players who get high in ladders simply because they abuse broken specs or bought gear while their skill is very clearly lacking, pvp in wow is very gear>>>skill exactly because the devs have failed to understand that skill should be the determining factor in pvp thus forcing scaling just like swtor.

Swtor has the superior pvp experience because there's no major gear advantages because nobody DESERVES to have gear advantages in a PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER mode where skill should be the defining factor.

WaywardOne's Avatar


WaywardOne
10.05.2021 , 01:33 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by ralphieceaser View Post

More importantly design wise WoW has nothing like swtor's ultra strong defensives we have right now so you cant really compare them in swtor's current form.
That was my argument - 7.0 swtor is not going to be similar enough to current Wow. Saying that current Wow requires skill and allows some players to shine vs others is not relevant to an argument about massive pruning in swtor since current Wow is not a recently/massively pruned game. But my guardian will still have focused defense, most classes are keeping their "ultra strong dcds", they're just losing some of the extras that take skill to use well.

<<
Mage for example has a strong immunity that doesnt let him attack
>>

That is a bad example. Barrier and Block are almost identical abilities. Also mages can have 20 second damage shields just like sages. But I'm not going to get into an argument about how the game's aren't identical because they aren't.

<<
So in 7.0, it would rly be turning more into wow, than less, well WoW with actual good pvp since wow's pvp has been a dumbsterfire for a while now.
>>

I heartily disagree about 7.0 turning into Wow. SWTOR pvp is suffering from: healing is too good, guard is too good, dps is too low, there's too much cc, certain tacticals and set bonuses are problematic. From what I can see so far in 7.0 cc isn't really changing, there's still much too much for most classes, dps is going up (maybe), guard isn't changing, set bonuses and tacticals are a ?. Except for a couple standouts, DCDs are not why swtor currently sucks.

In many respects lowbie pvp in swtor is better than 6.0: cc is less, healing is much less, damage is much easier to get higher, no tacticals or set bonuses, tanks don't out-dps anyone, everyone can die, etc.. But the game involves less skill than endgame pvp and more of the fights are very rock-paper-scissors.

<<
And you seem to confuse skill with gear, there's a ton of bad players who get high in ladders simply because they abuse broken specs or bought gear while their skill is very clearly lacking, pvp in wow is very gear>>>skill exactly because the devs have failed to understand that skill should be the determining factor in pvp thus forcing scaling just like swtor.
>>

In Wow gear matters a lot, gear can make up for skill in many fights. A mediocre player with great gear can beat a good one without it, all else being equal. In swtor that's also true but it's far easier at the moment to get enough gear that, with bolster, there won't be much difference. Except for the tacticals and set bonuses which are very game changing in the right hands.

<<
Swtor has the superior pvp experience because there's no major gear advantages because nobody DESERVES to have gear advantages in a PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER mode where skill should be the defining factor.[/QUOTE]
>>

That's one point of view, I don't agree. I would argue that Wow's pvp is a bit better than SWTOR's in many respects even at the moment. But this is a different argument/conversation.

loadmasterAF's Avatar


loadmasterAF
10.10.2021 , 10:08 PM | #45
Ok so for some background I love Star Wars and I'm a fairly new player to the game, like it hasn't even been a month since I started, nor have I put as much effort into any MMOs until this one, in fact I even decided to sub after just a couple days I was enjoying it that much! When I saw the update for 7.0 in the launcher and read the brief snippet they gave here on it I was actually looking forward to it because it made it seem like they were just going to lift the class restriction on the weapons you used.

But as I started to play the game more, gaining more abilities, joining a guild and doing activities with them, reading up on more detailed info for how to play my class to better support my friends and guildmates. I came to this understanding that having all of these abilities whether I used them frequently or not is to my benefit. So when I started to delve more into the 7.0 info coming out of the PTS and seeing how all the classes are getting abilities cut from them in order to simplify it for the user and especially newcomers like myself, I felt like that was such a disrespect to this game and others who enjoy and more importantly me as I put in my own time to learn how to play this MMO more effectively. Essentially what I'm understanding from the devs is that I'm too stupid to manage my own abilities so they are going to limit what I can and can't use in their game.

Now I don't know what they could do to improve the game besides reading the posts of veteran players in this area of gaming so I can't really add much input there. Now saying that I do think there are other areas of they game they could improve on like the menu's.....now some those I think could be consolidated down to where they are just tabs along side each other in the same context menu. For example I would personally like the guild menu merged into the logs menu, much like how the inventory menu has the different tabs at the top and but also has quick pop outs attached to the left side, that's brilliant and reduces clutter for me! I also think the UI could be more modernized but still keeping it themed in the style and feel of Star Wars.

Wilsu_Addar's Avatar


Wilsu_Addar
10.13.2021 , 06:56 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by loadmasterAF View Post
Ok so for some background I love Star Wars and I'm a fairly new player to the game, like it hasn't even been a month since I started, nor have I put as much effort into any MMOs until this one, in fact I even decided to sub after just a couple days I was enjoying it that much! When I saw the update for 7.0 in the launcher and read the brief snippet they gave here on it I was actually looking forward to it because it made it seem like they were just going to lift the class restriction on the weapons you used.

But as I started to play the game more, gaining more abilities, joining a guild and doing activities with them, reading up on more detailed info for how to play my class to better support my friends and guildmates. I came to this understanding that having all of these abilities whether I used them frequently or not is to my benefit. So when I started to delve more into the 7.0 info coming out of the PTS and seeing how all the classes are getting abilities cut from them in order to simplify it for the user and especially newcomers like myself, I felt like that was such a disrespect to this game and others who enjoy and more importantly me as I put in my own time to learn how to play this MMO more effectively. Essentially what I'm understanding from the devs is that I'm too stupid to manage my own abilities so they are going to limit what I can and can't use in their game.

Now I don't know what they could do to improve the game besides reading the posts of veteran players in this area of gaming so I can't really add much input there. Now saying that I do think there are other areas of they game they could improve on like the menu's.....now some those I think could be consolidated down to where they are just tabs along side each other in the same context menu. For example I would personally like the guild menu merged into the logs menu, much like how the inventory menu has the different tabs at the top and but also has quick pop outs attached to the left side, that's brilliant and reduces clutter for me! I also think the UI could be more modernized but still keeping it themed in the style and feel of Star Wars.
This is a great post from a new player. Ability pruning is not the answer in making the game easier. Very small pruning is fine, but not losing core abilities on each class.
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CoraxTechnica's Avatar


CoraxTechnica
10.26.2021 , 08:35 AM | #47
Getting back to the promises made, I was so irritated with the lack of choice on PTS that I went back through every announcement.
This is exactly what was said in July:

Quote:
More Choices in How You Play

Introducing Combat Styles! Players can now separate their Class Story from gameplay style for an even greater customization experience. This frees up Advanced Class options as characters can choose any Advanced Class within the Tech or Force playstyle! Play as a Trooper wielding a Sniper Rifle, or a Sith Inquisitor with a lightsaber in each hand, or even secretly use Dark Side powers while posing as a member of the Jedi Order. Loadouts will increase your ability to customize, allowing you to swap between playstyles and gear with a click.
August 6 Announcement:
Quote:
While the current array of Class and Advanced Class options allows you to create characters resembling many of your favorite characters, they donít cover all of the most popular character/combat combinations from other Star Wars media. Boba Fett is a bounty hunter who primarily uses a rifle, Captain Rex is a soldier who fights with two pistols, and so on. Wouldnít it be great if SWTOR let you create and customize these awesome characters, and more?

For Legacy of the Sith, our goal is to do just that. By separating your combat gameplay choice (Advanced Class) from your storyline choice (Class), you can make characters with new story and gameplay combinations that allow you to create your own personal Star Wars characters. In order to make the new options clearer, weíve updated the names:
Classes will become Origin Stories, embodying your characterís voice, background, and where their story begins in the Old Republic.
Advanced Classes will become Combat Styles which determines how your character fights from level 1 and beyond.

There are still two limitations on which Combat Styles are available to which Origin Stories:
If your character has a blaster-wielding Origin Story--Trooper, Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, or Agent--they will have access to only the ďTechĒ Combat Styles: Vanguard, Commando, Powertech, Mercenary, Scoundrel, Gunslinger, Operative, and Sniper.
If your character has a Force-based Origin Story--Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular, Sith Warrior, or Sith Inquisitor--they will initially only have access to other Force-based Combat Styles that match their factionís overall alignment:
Jedi Knights and Jedi Consulars will be able to choose between Guardian, Sentinel, Sage, or Shadow Combat Styles at level 1.
Sith Warriors and Sith Inquisitors will be able to choose between Juggernaut, Marauder, Sorcerer, or Assassin Combat Styles at level 1.
If your characterís choices lead them away from their factionís alignment and down the path of light side or dark side, they will eventually unlock the option to pick the other factionís Combat Styles in addition to their own.
And then nothing for months on that. The PTS doesn't reflect this at all.
So unless I can actually play a trooper with a sniper, this was a completely empty announcement, if not an outright lie.
Nobody has addressed this yet, they're just quietly letting the community forget about what was actually announced
If you're playing like a subscriber, you should be paying like a subscriber.

WaywardOne's Avatar


WaywardOne
10.26.2021 , 06:51 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by CoraxTechnica View Post
...
So unless I can actually play a trooper with a sniper, this was a completely empty announcement, if not an outright lie.
Nobody has addressed this yet, they're just quietly letting the community forget about what was actually announced
That's not what we've been testing - they've been clear about what specific parts of 7.0 we're supposed to test. The testing on the PTS is revolving entirely around how much nerfing players can tolerate. Presumably there are many things in 7.0 that we're not going to see until it gets released. I have no doubt that Troopers will be able to use sniper rifles when 7.0 goes live (and I'm equally sure Powertechs won't be using sniper rifles).

Nee-Elder's Avatar


Nee-Elder
10.27.2021 , 01:58 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
. Presumably there are many things in 7.0 that we're not going to see until it gets released. .
Wellllll, it looks like BioWare has other ideas about that---> https://www.swtor.com/community/show...94#edit9975594
Never tell me the odds! - (Fix SPACE! 4.0ur *Community*)

WaywardOne's Avatar


WaywardOne
10.28.2021 , 07:32 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Nee-Elder View Post
Wellllll, it looks like BioWare has other ideas about that---> https://www.swtor.com/community/show...94#edit9975594
I'm sure we'll have a list of features (I really hope we get more than what they mentioned in that post) but I doubt that these are on PTS or ever will be which was what my post and the post I responded to was about.