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PvP Guard Damage Mitagation


GHoppa

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Hi guys.

 

Looked around alot for an explanation, and thought i would ask those that know best when i couldn't find anything. Switching from dps to tank for pvp, and wanted to know exactly how damage from gaurd was allocated and mitagated?

 

Is half the raw damage number taken and given to me, and then mitagated by my armor? Is the damage mitatgated through my gaurded targets defense's, then given to me and i can't do anything with it other than have a high hp and cop it on the chin?

 

From the little i have played, It feels as if my defensive cooldowns (warding call etc) help to mitagate gaurd damage, but not my armour. Is this correct?

 

I have a few ideas i would like to try with gear, but it all depends on how guard damage is assigned and then mitagated.

 

Thanks for any help!

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Let's say an enemy player deals 5000 raw, unmitigated damage from Smash. If the receiving player had Guard, 250 damage (5%) is automatically removed. Of the remaining 4750 damage, the player will take 2375 damage and the tank will take 2375 damage (50% split). Once the damage is split, both players will apply their damage mitigation to the incoming attacks separately and individually.

 

http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/05/swtor-tanking-specific-interview-with.html

Edited by xGBox
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Let's say an enemy player deals 5000 raw, unmitigated damage from Smash. If the receiving player had Guard, 250 damage (5%) is automatically removed. Of the remaining 4750 damage, the player will take 2375 damage and the tank will take 2375 damage (50% split). Once the damage is split, both players will apply their damage mitigation to the incoming attacks separately and individually.

 

http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/05/swtor-tanking-specific-interview-with.html

 

The only problem is that it does not work (unless fixed already) I have been testing this and have never shielded or defended damage received via guard.

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I was referencing hard damage mitigation from Energy/Kinetic and Internal/Elemental damage but I don't believe D/A/S stats will be calculated into guard damage, sadly.

 

EDIT: See below

Edited by xGBox
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Guard damage split comes after armor mitigation AND damage-reducing cooldowns, that's why most tanks would prefer guarding a Commando rather than a Sage

Hmm, that would mean that 50% of the damage would be funneled twice through two players' armor mitigation, unless you're saying that the tank does not factor in its own armor mitigation when splitting the damage. In your words, it would go like this:

 

5000 raw Smash

4750 raw Smash after 5%

3562.5 damage after 25% damage reduction on targeted player

1781.25 damage split to player and tank

Targeted player receives ~1781 damage

890.625 damage after 50% damage reduction on tank

Tank receives ~891 damage

Total combined damage: 2672

 

I'll be doing some tests involving Guard inside the Outlaw's Den sometime today unless someone can chime in with a more definitive answer.

Edited by xGBox
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Firstly thank you for the quick replys.

 

xGBox that article you referenced was interesting. It specificly states shield comes into play, but according to your own and Darth Dreselus' testing, defense and shield do not apply to guard damage, only armour resistances from kin/eng/int/ele, which includes the buffs from some defensive cooldowns. Is that correct?

 

RendValor, are you suggesting that guard damage is then mitigated twice, once by the target, after which it is spilt and then mitigated by the tanks armor? Because from my own personal albeit breif experience, using defensive cooldowns certainly appears to help mitagate this damage.

 

I just find it interesting that within a few hours there were posts from several conflicting viewpoints, which goes to show that this is not a widely understood mechanic.

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I'm hoping to try and answer the rest of the questions later today or until someone else can chime in:

 

1. When does the split occur? Is it:

  • Half of the base damage from enemy player with individual mitigation?
  • Half of the mitigated target damage with additional tank mitigation?
  • Half of the mitigated target damage without additional tank mitigation?

 

 

These are the stats I used for my calculations.

 

Tank damage reduction: 35.31%

Tank Defense Chance: 24.07%

Tank Shield Chance: 36.62%

Tank Shield Absorption: 45.02%

Targeted player damage reduction: 26.95%

Enemy player Surge: 67.42%

All players: 551 Expertise

 

I will be using Hidden Strike for this test. Hidden Strike is one-tick Tech damage and cannot be mitigated by D/A/S stats even without guard.

 

Normal unguarded attacks to targeted player from Hidden Strike:

1428 average normal damage or 1812 raw damage

2390 average critical damage or 3034 raw critical damage

 

Non-crit Hidden Strike:

Tank: 638 / 863 raw

TP: 681 / 864 raw

Raw damage after 5%: 1727

Raw damage before 5%: 1813

 

After about 15 non-crit Hidden Strikes, the tank consistently takes less damage than the targeted player due to its increased damage mitigation from armor.

 

Crit Hidden Strike on targeted player:

Tank: 630 / 852 raw

TP: 1134 / 1439 raw after surge

Raw damage after 5%: 2308

Raw damage before 5%: 2423

 

Critical and surge rating are calculated after transfer. Great news for tanks: Only half of the damage from an enemy attack will count towards a critical.

 

Crit Hidden Strike on tank:

Tank: 1069 / 1446 raw after surge

TP: 678 / 860 raw

Raw damage after 5%: 2306

Raw damage before 5%: 2421

 

Tanks can also be victim of a critical even though the targeted player will not be. Does that mean that the attacker has twice the chance for a critical? Technically, yes, but remember that it's calculating Surge from the split damage. The chances of a dual critical will be half of the enemy's critical chance just to deal the same damage unguarded.

 

With these numbers, I can conclude that the enemy attacker will first have its damage reduced by 5%, then split in half as two attacks between the two players. Each player uses their individual damage mitigation resources (e.g. armor, cooldowns) to absorb the resulting split damage. Each attack has its own chance to critical but will only calculate its own split damage.

 

2. Are D/A/S stats factored through Guard damage?

 

For this portion, I will be using Overload Shot. Overload Shot is one-tick energy damage and is mitigated by D/A/S by normal means.

 

Normal unguarded attacks to targeted player from Overload Shot:

831 average normal damage or 1054 raw damage

1350 average critical damage or 1713 raw critical damage

 

Non-crit Overload Shot

Tank: 344 / 465 raw

TP: 380 / 482 raw

Raw damage after 5%: 947

Raw damage before 5%: 994

 

As stated in the previous question, tanks consistently take less damage than their targeted player because of their armor.

 

Possibly Shielded Overload Shot 1

Tank: 190 / 279 after absorption, 377 raw

TP: 407 / 516 raw

Raw damage after 5%: 893

Raw damage before 5%: 937

 

Possibly Shielded Overload Shot 2

Tank: 193 / 280 after absorption, 378 raw

TP: 368 / 467 raw

Raw damage after 5%: 845

Raw damage before 5%: 887

 

Possibly Shielded Overload Shot 3

Tank: 196 / 284 after absorption, 384 raw

TP: 410 / 520 raw

Raw damage after 5%: 904

Raw damage before 5%: 949

 

The last three shots indicate that some form of shield/absorb chance may be in effect. We can see that the targeted player takes normal damage but the damage to the tank is almost halved. This would lead me to believe that shield and absorb does work, counter to my previous statement, but it will not indicate it as being successfully shielded or absorbed anywhere in the game. This is proven as shielding Guard damage does not reduce charges of Dark Ward.

 

I can also confirm that Defense chance will be calculated through Guard damage so long as the originating damage could've been mitigated (i.e. Melee/Ranged but not Force/Tech). You can easily prove this by dealing damage to the targeted player and see that, occasionally, damage towards the tank will not be applied at all. One caveat: This will not show up on a parser, and you will not see text indicating that you have dodged a guarded attack.

Edited by xGBox
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Good to know, shows that all the confusion has come from not being able to tell if shielded or not. I have always been looking for the shield/defend animations or flytext, since I did not know the incoming damage I could not have guessed how much I should be getting.

 

BTW in your calculations what do you mean by before 5% and after 5%? 5% of what?

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Guarded players take 5% less damage from all sources but is not explicitly shown as additional damage reduction from E/K and I/E damage. Damage shown before 5% reduction would indicate the raw damage you would deal to an unguarded player before damage mitigation from armor. Edited by xGBox
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Wow, awesome job!

 

I was going to round up some sucke... err i mean friends myself and do some of my own testing, but what you have done is alot more comprehensive than i would have.

 

So, we now know that all our own mitigation sources apply to gaurd damage, and you will take the same damage weather or not you gaurd a commando or a sage. We also know dark shroud does not affect guard damage.

 

This is another definitive reason for tanks to be in tanking gear if the role they are assigned is to help their teammates survive.

 

Thanks again!

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Can you test with an attack that is melee/ranged but yellow (internal/elemental) damage?

 

Shield mitigate based on attack type, while armor mitigates based on damage type. Melee/ranged + internal/elemental should be migitated by shield but not armor (if shield works for guard damage).

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Can you test with an attack that is melee/ranged but yellow (internal/elemental) damage?

 

There are none of those in game atm. M/R I/E attacks are a theoretical possibility but not practically present. If it's yellow damage, it's a Force/Tech attack, not M/R so you're never going to see an M/R attack that throws up yellow numbers.

Edited by Kitru
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I

 

I can also confirm that Defense chance will be calculated through Guard damage so long as the originating damage could've been mitigated (i.e. Melee/Ranged but not Force/Tech). You can easily prove this by dealing damage to the targeted player and see that, occasionally, damage towards the tank will not be applied at all. One caveat: This will not show up on a parser, and you will not see text indicating that you have dodged a guarded attack.

 

Again, great work! If you need help testing and you are on Bastion or Harbinger, let me know. I'd love to help.

 

I think my guardian tank has a significant resistance percentage, so unless the attacker (e.g. sage) is stacking accuracy, some of his attacks should miss me.

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There are none of those in game atm. M/R I/E attacks are a theoretical possibility but not practically present. If it's yellow damage, it's a Force/Tech attack, not M/R so you're never going to see an M/R attack that throws up yellow numbers.

 

Hmmm, now I want to start drawing pictures of all the classes, their abilities and which quadrant they fall into. Of course spec affects this so that means more variations on same pictures.

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I think my guardian tank has a significant resistance percentage, so unless the attacker (e.g. sage) is stacking accuracy, some of his attacks should miss me.

 

Guardian tanks actually have no resistance chance. Shadows get 2% from the Shadowsight talent, and VGs get 2% from their 4 pc. set bonus.

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Guardian tanks actually have no resistance chance. Shadows get 2% from the Shadowsight talent, and VGs get 2% from their 4 pc. set bonus.

 

there is avoidance and mitigation. Resistance is avoidance? What is the yellow damage mitigation? I'm pretty sure my guardian tank has a fair amount of one of those. Now that you mention it, yeah, I think resistance is 0% and force/tech mitigation is 20%?

 

EDIT: my guardian has significant internel/elemental damage reduction. So yeah, force/tech attacks will always hit. Thanks for reminding me I need to review these mechanics.

 

EDIT2: these discussions are so much easier when I can login to the game and review my character sheet.

Edited by funkiestj
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Now that you mention it, yeah, I think resistance is 0% and force/tech mitigation is 20%?

 

Resistance is avoidance and applies to Force/Tech attacks. Since Force/Tech attacks can be either I/E *or* K/E damage, both of your DR varieties are used against it. In addition, Guardian tanks actually have middling DR on both counts (as far as tanks are concerned, compared to all other roles, tank DR always wins out in both categories): for K/E DR, a Shadow will have ~40%, a Guardian will have ~50%, and a VG will have 56%; for I/E DR, a Shadow will have 21%, a Guardian will have 20%, and a VG will have 19%.

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Let's say an enemy player deals 5000 raw, unmitigated damage from Smash. If the receiving player had Guard, 250 damage (5%) is automatically removed. Of the remaining 4750 damage, the player will take 2375 damage and the tank will take 2375 damage (50% split). Once the damage is split, both players will apply their damage mitigation to the incoming attacks separately and individually.

 

http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/05/swtor-tanking-specific-interview-with.html

 

I can confirm that !

We tested it on Tatooine. The incoming damage is reduced by 5% and is then split into two separate parts. Both players (the one guarded and the tank) apply their own mitigation. This considers armor as well as defense (avoiding the dmg at all) and shield/absorb. Which also means that the attack can crit on both targets individually.

However, the "best" conclusion for me is that guarding a sage-healer or a merc-healer doesn't make any difference since it often felt that way.

 

Anyway, tanks are still too weak in PvP considering the amount of tech/force attacks in the game.

 

Thanks at OP and especially at xGBox for bringing this up and coming around with some actual facts :D

Edited by MaDwurschT
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By the way, what we forgot testing is how taunt actually affects this process. If I taunt someone and he attacks my guardet mate, does only my mate get the 30% less damage or do we both benefit from it? Because if my own mitigation is applied to guard damage, does this count exclusively as an attack to my teammate (and therefor is aswell reduced by 30% to me) or as an attack to both me and him (in which case he'd get the -30% and I don't).
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  • 2 weeks later...

MaDwurschT, I went back to Tatooine to test your query:

 

3. Where are Taunts factored into Guard damage? Is it:

 

  • 30% less damage to both the targeted player and the tank?
  • 30% less damage to the targeted player only?

 

 

I will be using Shiv for this test. Shiv is one-tick Tech damage.

 

Normal unguarded attacks to targeted player from Shiv:

979 average normal damage

1661 average critical damage

 

Taunted, unguarded attacks to targeted player from Shiv:

671 average normal damage

1169 average critical damage

 

There is about 30% damage reduction across the board. The tooltip of Taunt is indeed accurate!

 

Non-crit, Shiv on targeted player without Taunt:

Tank: 427 average

TP: 468 average

 

Standard split damage reduction. Tanks have more armor, thus less damage, etc.

 

Non-crit Shiv on targeted player with Taunt (1):

Tank: 427

TP: 331

 

Non-crit Shiv on targeted player with Taunt (2):

Tank: 419

TP: 319

 

Non-crit Shiv on targeted player with Taunt (3):

Tank: 428

TP: 322

 

These three attacks are where it gets interesting: It shows that the tank does not benefit from the damage reduction of Taunt through Guard damage, but the targeted player definitely does to the point where it consistently takes less damage than the tank. This means that Taunt damage reduction is calculated after the initial raw damage has been split.

 

Math shows that it has an additional damage reduction of around 30% as well when compared to a guarded attack without Taunt, which is consistent with the averages earlier in the post.

Edited by xGBox
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Nice, I really appreciate it :)

 

Another thing came to my mind which you might already know:

Is the 5% damage reduction from guard applied only if you're in guard-range (15m) or is it independent from range?

It's not that much of a deal but there'd be some ways of using this usefully. : P

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