Otherwise it's got nothing to do with "get off my lawn" but everything to do with "stop trying to completely lobotomize my character for no legitimate reason."

Do you have actual argument for streamlining the gaming experience for people who cannot handle 30 buttons, sometimes physically, or do you not? Because I brought it up twice now towards you posts. You ignored it both times.

I have friends with disabilities of upper limbs that play SWTOR. I personally suffered due to medication that caused me lowered reaction time and situational awareness that made it borderline impossible to play high level PVE and PVP in its current states. I've known people who suffered from depression and anxiety, and found it incredibly hard to play the game at the high level due to how much management it requires.

You have, across all threads that you have been active in thus far, provided no arguments for what should be done to make the game more approachable to people, other than "Yeah, it's all their fault because they don't do research, when it's really simple". Because it's not, and no amount of "Git Gud" will fix that.

Do you have actual argument for streamlining the gaming experience for people who cannot handle 30 buttons, sometimes physically, or do you not? Because I brought it up twice now towards you posts. You ignored it both times.

 

I have friends with disabilities of upper limbs that play SWTOR. I personally suffered due to medication that caused me lowered reaction time and situational awareness that made it borderline impossible to play high level PVE and PVP in its current states. I've known people who suffered from depression and anxiety, and found it incredibly hard to play the game at the high level due to how much management it requires.

 

You have, across all threads that you have been active in thus far, provided no arguments for what should be done to make the game more approachable to people, other than "Yeah, it's all their fault because they don't do research, when it's really simple". Because it's not, and no amount of "Git Gud" will fix that.

That's actually the dumbest, slimiest argument you could make. "But what about the crippled kids?" There are things I've never been able to do physically. When I'm on the field does that mean everyone else has to tie their shoelaces together? Or rather make sure everyone always ties their shoelaces together in case people like me want to play? No, I would hate that more than anyone.

My pvp game is gone no matter what spec I play using these "new" characters.

If you follow the pvp forum at all, a lot of pvp'ers have been complaining about too many dcd's, stuns, slows, immunities, etc for a while now, long before this pruning was announced. I wonder if the pvp changes mentioned in the livestream have something to do with all of the pruning.

If you follow the pvp forum at all, a lot of pvp'ers have been complaining about too many dcd's, stuns, slows, immunities, etc for a while now, long before this pruning was announced. I wonder if the pvp changes mentioned in the livestream have something to do with all of the pruning.

That's not what this patch is addressing, though. This patch is reverting my guardian to something less functional than he was in 1.0 but he will still have his stun, his pushback, an aoe snare if he wants it and an aoe mezz if he wants it. And current dps guardians aren't one of the classes anyone's complaining about going up against in ranked. And he's losing his cc-breaker of all things. Or it's getting "changed", who knows if it's for better or worse they won't say. Currently it's gone.

One of the other things complained about is tanks. Currently the tank guardian is much better in a fight than one or two dps guardians.

Does it sound like they're thinking about pvp to me? No.

That's not what this patch is addressing, though. This patch is reverting my guardian to something less functional than he was in 1.0 but he will still have his stun, his pushback, an aoe snare if he wants it and an aoe mezz if he wants it. And current dps guardians aren't one of the classes anyone's complaining about going up against in ranked.

Let's face it, there hasn't been any attempt to revamp any of the classes in a long, long time. The combat team gives us a new ability every expansion without really taking one away. So if you wanted to revamp and rebalance all classes/specs while preserving the class/spec's "feel," where would you start?

Let's face it, there hasn't been any attempt to revamp any of the classes in a long, long time. The combat team gives us a new ability every expansion without really taking one away. So if you wanted to revamp and rebalance all classes/specs while preserving the class/spec's "feel," where would you start?

My guardian started the game with over 25 things to keybind @50. Over the last 10 years he's gained 4 new things and lost a couple (that I don't miss). My level 75 guardian on test has less active abilities, far less, than my level 50 had in 2012. That's not an accident or a bug, it's by design according to the explanation we were given.

Let's face it, there hasn't been any attempt to revamp any of the classes in a long, long time. The combat team gives us a new ability every expansion without really taking one away. So if you wanted to revamp and rebalance all classes/specs while preserving the class/spec's "feel," where would you start?

Why revamp? Just be good stewards of a 10 year old game?

The only time you need to revamp a mechanic in a game is if its not working as intended. But this seems like new Dev's don't like the direction the old Dev's went with DCD's over time?

So rather than being good stewards of the game they inherited from 10 years on, they're going to pull it apart for new players that are rolling Level 70's and don't understand what all the buttons do because they didn't learn the game from Level 1 as it was designed to be played...??

Hey I just realized something...

Anyone have thoughts on this:

The Devs want to go to Level 80, and don't have any room to add new skills, so they've decided to do this consolidation because they can't accommodate any additional level progression with the current skill trees????!!!

I have friends with disabilities of upper limbs that play SWTOR. I personally suffered due to medication that caused me lowered reaction time and situational awareness that made it borderline impossible to play high level PVE and PVP in its current states. I've known people who suffered from depression and anxiety, and found it incredibly hard to play the game at the high level due to how much management it requires.

 

You have, across all threads that you have been active in thus far, provided no arguments for what should be done to make the game more approachable to people, other than "Yeah, it's all their fault because they don't do research, when it's really simple". Because it's not, and no amount of "Git Gud" will fix that.

I know a blind person. SWTOR should therefore remove all visuals and be an audio only experience, for the sake of accessibility. I also know a deaf person...I'm not sure what they'll do. Can the game be played via scent?

"I can't handle so many abilities in a video game, because I am depressed!", if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I wouldn't believe this post was real. If this is representative of who plays this game, maybe the devs are on the right track with dumbing things down after all. Hell, they probably need to go even dumber.

To avoid potential double posting I'm going to tackle a few of the newer posts here at once. I've seen one actual attempt in these new posts to debate on facts, the rest not so much.

I just wanna correct a few things here. Blade Storm is an ability with a 10m range, that is a large range than the 8m AoE from Freezing Force. If chasing down a single target is the problem, Blade Storm is easier to land on the target than Freezing Force is. As for Blade Storm's stun, that only affects the main target (whereas the new utility will slow in an area around the main target) and only if the target is standard or weaker. So most of the time, it won't.

Edit: On current patch there's a utility that increases Blade Storm's range to 30m (at the cost of doing less damage beyond 10m), if that makes it to the new version we'd see a massive improvement for the range of that slow.

This right here folks is a solid attempt at trying to debate based on logic and facts. I don't agree with our user here and will explain why in just a moment, but if you're going to insist that I'm wrong, then provide specific bits of evidence you believe back your case. With that said, time to address this argument itself.

10m is a respectable range, but isn't as large as you think it is. It's a larger range than virtually all melee abilities, but is still nothing compared to the range on most basic attacks from a ranged dps character. Bearing this in mind however I never said it stunned every target, although I can most definitely understand how one could choose to interpret it that way. The effects of Blade Storm as is right now are only going to stun the single target it hits, if it stuns the target. If we assume that Freezing Force and Blade Storm have been combined, this is now going to proc the slow on the target as well as those close enough to the target. While this may seem like an upgrade and something new, it's actually not. Using current numbers on live as the example, if your stun lasts for 4 seconds, and the slow for 8 seconds, you've wasted half of the duration of your slow and are not getting the full effect from the slow. If the target isn't stunned, then and only then will you get the full benefit of the slow. Assuming this is a foe that's going to get stunned, that's far less value from the slow.

As for the "upgrade" to Blade Storm, combining Freezing Force and Blade Storm doesn't give us anything new that we don't already have. You're not creating new content, you're simply shifting it around. This also takes a ton of control out of the hands of the player as to when their slow actually pops. Before you say it, yes I know the player decides what to hit and when, but if one wishes to be as effective as possible, you need to follow the rotation of your class. In this instance with Blade Storm as part of a rotation, you've removed completely the control over the slow. Currently as it sits on live, you can indeed get a utility point under the current system that extends the range to 30m. Cool, now we have 2 whole attacks with a 30m range (saber throw is the other.) At best, it maintains the status quo we have now, at the worst it completely steals control over when the slow procs from the player, and cuts its duration in half vs the target. So again, this is not an upgrade but a nerf.

Also under this new system, if you honestly think they're going to combine Blade Storm with Freezing Force AND let people use a 30m range for the power, you're kidding yourself. If they did let folks do that, then it would definitely prove they have no clue what they're doing. Photo for reference as to how large a range 30m is: https://imgur.com/a/m5VhM3x Where I'm standing in this photo is exactly 30m from the target. If you think they're going to give us a slow with that massive of a range, it would objectively be the most powerful slow in the game hands down. Get enough Guardians with that massive of a slow and you could cover entire maps with only a few people.

Of course MMO's can't survive without a community. But what makes you think this will negatively impact the community? I've heard plenty of calls on these very forums for pruning skills (especially defensive cooldowns) and combating ability bloat. Sure there's a lot of negativity right now on the forums, but that's mostly because having to choose between two abilities you can right now both have is annoying at first (but something that people will get used to if it's done reasonably) as well as certain key skills being unavailable (cc break and interrupt) on pts currently, that they did later clarify they are still considering ways to change, but aren't looking to remove.

 

If done well the new system can function similar to the current utilities system, but with more meaningful choice, that will bring in more players that might stay and bolster the community. Of course if implemented poorly it might do quite the opposite. Every change and patch you make to an online game is a balancing act.

You're correct that a game like this can't survive without a community, and stealing abilities from the community and pretending you've done them a favor is only going to further drive the community away. Changing gearing in 5.0 was bad enough, but this is on another level completely as it changes the core of the classes themselves. Also who are these mythical people calling for abilities to be removed? Aside from you and 2 others I've seen no one else saying this is a good idea.

Your line of logic here is clearly from the pvp perspective, and that's cool, we can debate this from a pvp perspective. With that said however PVP is NEVER a valid reason someone like myself on the PVE side of the game should ever have to give up an ability I've had since launch, or for years at the very least. That's basically telling an entire half of the game that they shouldn't be allowed to use abilities they were given, because the other half doesn't like it. Sorry but no, this isn't strictly a PVP game. Alot of the abilities being removed are iconic abilities, some of them even core defensive abilities. Thus a PVP change is being allowed to destroy the PVE side of the game. In this instance PVP is being allowed to rob PVE of critical and valuable tools cause "wah I can't kill this guy as fast as I want". IF an ability is too strong for PVP but is a critical tool in PVE, the solution is to disallow its use in PVP while leaving it alone for PVE. World of Warcraft has done this for nearly 8 years with Arenas and BGs and it's worked wonders for them. By further adding modifiers to certain abilities, it allows them to adjust an ability for PVP without ever effecting PVE and vice versa.

As far as negativity goes, they're stealing more than half of our toolkits under the bogus logic that a ton of abilities have been added over the years when we've gotten all of 3 powers, yet you seriously expect people to be happy about it? In what universe do you honestly think people are going to be happy about something like that, because it's not this one. The problem is I shouldn't have to choose between abilities I already have. If I have 10 powers, you steal 5 of them, and offer to give back 2 powers of my choosing, that's not a choice, and it's not new content. You don't create new content by recycling and dividing what's already there. Again this is like the pie analogy. You can slice that pie as many times as you want, but slicing that pie into more and more pieces doesn't create additional pie. All you're doing is further dividing what's already there while giving each piece of pie less and less substance and overall, less pie.

You're also basing your entire line of logic on some very big "what ifs". "What IF it's done well" and "what if they stay." Based on the PTS we see that it's not going to be done well and is an absolute insult to the players at how subpar the product is. They say they want to give us more choice, and for us to use a broader variety of toolkit, yet their implementation steals choice from us and locks us to ability presets. That's the exact opposite of what they said they want to do. There's no "if implemented poorly" it's the poster child for what not to do. There's no "choosing between two abilities you can right now have both may be annoying at first)" it's a straight up nerf and theft of an ability. That'll never be something people enjoy. Again we have examples from World of Warcraft and Star Wars Galaxies before it that this sort of thing NEVER goes over well and only drives players away. If WoW, which is a much bigger game than SWTOR has ever been couldn't pull it off and had to walk back the prunings or go under, what makes you think SWTOR can do it? The simplest solution is to disable problem abilities in pvp and call it a day, which gives both sides what they want, AND saves the company a ton of cash on an unnecessary rebalance.

I main a guardian, in fact, it was the first class I experienced. I have been on the PTS and yes it is different but it wasn't horrible. Even doing the onderon dailies with a horrible comp, it was a very smooth run with no issues. And it should be noted this is an incomplete build, and very very narrow. I believe these changes have the chance to improve gameplay for most players. And yes maybe you have to learn a new rotation, but what if it makes that easier and flow better?

 

I understand people are very attached to their toons and this game - and it feels like they're being robbed of their experience. I also think people should voice their opinions and provide the feedback they need (but they need to give them the direct feedback they asked for instead of having dozens of basically the same threads).

 

We also need to remember that yes most people on the forums seem to be upset with these changes, but again there is a very small player base that actually takes the time to come on the forums and post. So saying "most" players hate these changes is unfair, because there are players who do like the changes

 

Not really sure what my post is about, but trying not to be so negative about the upcoming changes. I think we really need to wait for more iterations of the PTS so we can give continued feedback before any changes actually happen

I'm not sure what PTS you were playing, but that was a complete and utter insult to the players. Again you do NOT need to know every single one and zero of the upcoming code to make an informed inference based off their statements that they intend to do this for every class, with them even admitting it will be LESS abilities and choice. It doesn't make the flow better, but steals iconic abilities from us we've had since launch and pretends its done us a favor. There's no "feels like they're being robbed of their experience" they're straight up stealing it. You also acknowledge we should give them feedback, yet you turn around and complain about "dozens of basically the same threads."

No the forums are not the entire playerbase, and no has ever said it is. However when only 3 people are actually saying they like it, and the rest of the forums universally hates it, you can pretty well translate that to the rest of the playerbase. I've been on many a forum, and it's VERY rare that such diverse groups of people come together to universally say they hate a proposed change.

As for the "we need to wait because we don't have all the info" argument, people really need to come up with some new material at this point. How long do you think people should wait before speaking up? If folks wait until this stuff goes live it will be way too late. Right now we're 6 months out with plenty of time to change this and reverse course if they don't dig their heels in and triple down on bad design. They've shown us what they want to do by what's on the PTS and based off their statements have made clear they want to do that to every spec and class. What more do you need to "wait and see" at this point? How many time do they have to say what they want to do, and show you what they want to do before you believe them? This insult to the players on the PTS is on a whole other level than 5.0 ever thought of being. If this goes live as is right now, it can cause this game to go under just like Star Wars Galaxies did, and just like Anthem did not too recently. Point blank I don't think you comprehend the gravity of how massive a change this is.

If you follow the pvp forum at all, a lot of pvp'ers have been complaining about too many dcd's, stuns, slows, immunities, etc for a while now, long before this pruning was announced. I wonder if the pvp changes mentioned in the livestream have something to do with all of the pruning.

See above, PVP is NEVER a valid reason that I on the PVE side of the game should be told "you can't use that ability now" or vice versa. It boils down to "wah I can't kill this guy as fast as I want." The simple solution is to disable the use of abilities in pvp that are considered too strong, and stick modifiers on other abilities so they behave differently in PVP and PVE. All they really need is a bit of code that goes a little something like this "if target is player do X, if target is NPC do Y." It checks what the target is, then applies the appropriate effect based on target type. WoW has done it for 8 years and there is zero valid reason it can't be done here. This is not a pure PVP game, as this is a game that has both pvp AND pve as valid game choices. You can't balance exclusively around one or the other, as both must be taken into account. If an ability can't be used in PVP, it's no different than if that ability didn't exist at all.

Trying to balance exclusively around pvp is essentially telling the pve half of the game they don't matter and you CAN'T do that sort of thing if you want to keep a playerbase. If folks like pvp, then more power to them. I gave up any kind of pvp years ago due to the toxicity around it and how more often than not it brings out the worst in people. With that said however, if someone likes PVP then I'm glad they've found something like. But by the Force leave me and everyone else who have no interest in pvp out of it.

Do you have actual argument for streamlining the gaming experience for people who cannot handle 30 buttons, sometimes physically, or do you not? Because I brought it up twice now towards you posts. You ignored it both times.

 

I have friends with disabilities of upper limbs that play SWTOR. I personally suffered due to medication that caused me lowered reaction time and situational awareness that made it borderline impossible to play high level PVE and PVP in its current states. I've known people who suffered from depression and anxiety, and found it incredibly hard to play the game at the high level due to how much management it requires.

 

You have, across all threads that you have been active in thus far, provided no arguments for what should be done to make the game more approachable to people, other than "Yeah, it's all their fault because they don't do research, when it's really simple". Because it's not, and no amount of "Git Gud" will fix that.

First off, your entire post is little more than a massive "exception that proves the rule" fallacy. It attempts to say that because this very small minority of people over here are having a problem, the entire game needs to change to suit them. Sorry but that's not how things work. Your line of logic is also no different than a politician saying "do it for the children." Except in your case it's "do it for the disabled people." This isn't just their game, this is my game as well. Saying that myself or others should be required to give up iconic abilities and other powers we've had since launch because of your disabled friends, is like saying that I as a grown man can't have a steak because my neighbor's baby can't chew it. While I'm sympathetic to your friends, as one of my own guildmates suffers from a bit of schizophrenia, their disability is not my problem. Your line of logic here is like saying "because this 1% thing happens, we need to make a change that will effect the other 99% as well." Also I must ask, if someone has anxiety and this game is setting off that anxiety, why are they playing to start with?

Next many many games out there incorporate accessibility features that alter certain aspects of the game within reason to allow folks with disabilities to access the game. One example includes games with a setting for folks who are colorblind. I'm all for incorporating accessibility features, but not at the cost of sacrificing core gameplay or negatively impacting the experience of everyone else, or giving them an unfair advantage over those who are not disabled. The gameplay experience of the 99% can't be sacrificed purely for the 1%. With that in mind, there are plenty of peripherals out there today that can assist people with disabilities, or folks having a hard time in general. There is the Razer Naga mouse or similar computer mice that have multiple buttons on the side of the mouse. In the Naga's case you have 12 buttons on the side of the mouse you can bind their core rotation to. If one takes the time to properly set it up, you can't control your character completely with just the mouse. For that matter I myself have a Logitech G13 gamepad from a time I hurt my wrist and couldn't play very well. If your friends require assistance, myself and others in the community can make recommendations based on their condition, and help them get started. Folks in this instance are only as helpless as they choose to be.

Also, you know as well as I do the groups I am referring to. Someone who has a legitimate disability is a different can of worms than those who are not disabled, but refuse to learn and get better. Most of the people who play this game are not disabled and have full use of their hands. If someone is having trouble learning their class, there are guides, videos, and people like myself who can walk them through it. I've spent plenty of hours in this game training folks on what to do. Guy who holds the record for longest time I've spent training was about 24 hours of game time. 8 hours a day for 3 days to teach him to play a Shadow tank. I am not a mind reader and I can't help folks who don't speak up and ask for it. If folks are having trouble, I'm all for helping them short of playing the game for them. We can offer them guides, videos, and personal training time all day long, but if those folks choose not to accept the help, then that is 100% on them for choosing to remain in the dark. This isn't a game that just came out yesterday, it's been out for nearly 10 years. If folks want to know how to play their class, they have no excuse for not finding something they can use to get started.

Lastly, a private that just joined the military wouldn't expect to be able to start bossing around a 4 star general, so why should a new person coming into this game get to dictate how it should function? They're entitled to say "I have trouble with X", but aside from that, they've not been around long enough to learn how everything works and are not yet qualified to give large sweeping statements on how the game should function. Once they've spent some time with the game and learned it's basic functions and learned what their class does, then they're qualified to make statements about how they think it should change. Until that time however, they're like the buck private trying to boss around a 4 star general. Once again, folks today are only as helpless as they choose to be.

I will say that it does seems disappointing to see the game take this path. I haven't tried out the PTS for myself but based on videos and posts I have read from other players and the devs I am not overly enthusiastic about the changes for classes this next expansion.

This to me does seem like a nerf and I think it would be difficult to argue that point since Bioware has used terms like ability pruning which to me sounds like a reduction or nerf. Now, from what I have seen in the videos I have watched it looks like many of the abilities are still there. However, it probably doesn't feel like that because you only have access to one of three. So while technically not as many abilities have been removed your access to all of them at one time has been. This will cause some to leave and others will stay because its Star Wars. It being star wars is a big part of the reason I have played for so long.

This to me seems like a way to level the playing field for new and casual players which I think it the audience they wish to keep. I think they are banking on long time players sticking around because they always have. I would guess that they make more money off new players buying new and shiny things from the cartel market. When the new and shiny wears off the new players will leave and new players will rotate in. This does aggravate because I feel I am not always part of their consideration but they do still have to make money. Now, that doesn't excuse things they have or will do but I do understand it.

If this is to be launched in holiday of this year then I would say they are already mostly done with the classes or reaching its end and are asking for feedback in hopes to reduce the amount of veteran players that will leave. This will change the playstyle of the game but one thing I would like to point out is when they use words like choice. I would assume they think by splitting up the abilities this will create more diversity in the builds being used in the game. The issue I have with this idea is that not all abilities are created equal. My guess is that once this hits people will find the a build that works best in pvp and a build that works best in pve. Once that happens those will probably be the new meta builds for that class in new era. They may create more choices by taking or separating things but people will always go with what's more efficient and there will again probably be a couple of build people go between. This to me would reduce the choice to a degree because many people stick to what's best.

This already is not being well received and is not going to go over well when launched and it will launched in some form like this. They will tweak the system to try and appease more people and it will get better to a degree. The people that hate it will leave and everyone else will be new or accept it. I feel thats what happened with the Command Rank system when it launched.

I would agree that I would rather them bring up the old content instead of lowering the players abilities and a big part of my reasoning for that is the long development time for this game. Over the years they have done things to get players to replay old content like when they did the 12x XP event or when they did the light vs dark event ( which I got frustrated with because after I got legendary status they took the achievements from me). When they finally did release a new operation after years of waiting they released it slowly only giving us one boss at a time. If they expect us to keep replaying old content I think they should put some effort into spicing it up to make it more interesting.

Another thing I wanted to mention is Biowares tendency to over buff or over nerf something. I think that in the past when Bioware makes class changes more often than not it is one extreme or the other and I am not sure if any class has been nerfed more than operative. I also dislike is when they discuss how a class or the game is intended to play. As I remember it part of the reason they went to the discipline system with utility points was in part due the the ability to create hybrid or tribrid class with the old system with skill point. During the old system you had choice on where to put your point and how to create your build, but was changed so that you had to play one spec of your advanced class. If they were worried about that shouldn't they be worried about builds we will make with this choice?

They also nerfed the command XP earned from npcs as well when the command rank system first hit because people figured out how to grind the old KP op to earn ranks much faster. They nerfed it because that wasn't how they intended the game to be played and then tell us to play our way which I find to be a contradiction. If they would have brought up the KP to the new player standards people might not have been able to do that grind by themselves or otherwise might have been more trouble that it was worth.

Sorry for all the text and sorry if it doesn't all make sense. I was just putting down my thoughts as they came to me. I like many have played this game for sometime and I was caught off guard by this change. Take care and have a good night.

Snip

You know, restating things ad nauseam does not make you right. People are only as helpless as they chose to be is a flat out lie, because while you can easily learn what is the most optimal way to play the class (And, by the way, using all of your buttons in both PvE and PvP will usually lead to suboptimal play, rather than optimal one), will be affected by your ability to concentrate, and use your agility in tandem with targeted reaction time. There are four pages of factors that affect those abilities, and most of those are beyond our control. I only touched upon the most extreme ones.

Also, I've had a laugh on your "1% can't dictate that the game should be change towards them". You are this one percent. Basically, the only people in this game to ever utilise all 30 buttons are the high-end PvP players, the smallest, most insular part of the player base. In the every other area of the game, and that includes the NiM raiding, to try and utilise all of the buttons is to play sub-optimally. If, playing as either Tank or a DPS, you waste your GDC on Freezing Force, you are playing suboptimally, full stop.

What's more, you literally have a problem with ONE, I will say it again, ONE choice at the current state of the PTS guardian. And that's the Lvl 70 choice between Enure, Blade Blitz and Saber Reflect. If all three of those were available on one the builds that focused on picking the active abilities whenever possible, you would have literally no leg to stand upon, unless you really are so adamant that Freezing Force is absolutely necessary for high level PvE and PvP content (spoilers, it's not, and using it in 99% of the situations is going to be bad for your effectiveness). And that one is a casual fix.

And if you say that you use all 31 buttons Guardian has constantly, and they are all indispensable to your play style, I will flat out say that I don't believe you, and ask you to produce analysis of the combat logs, which is a casual thing to do for anyone who plays this game seriously.

This right here folks is a solid attempt at trying to debate based on logic and facts. I don't agree with our user here and will explain why in just a moment, but if you're going to insist that I'm wrong, then provide specific bits of evidence you believe back your case. With that said, time to address this argument itself.

 

10m is a respectable range, but isn't as large as you think it is. It's a larger range than virtually all melee abilities, but is still nothing compared to the range on most basic attacks from a ranged dps character. Bearing this in mind however I never said it stunned every target, although I can most definitely understand how one could choose to interpret it that way. The effects of Blade Storm as is right now are only going to stun the single target it hits, if it stuns the target. If we assume that Freezing Force and Blade Storm have been combined, this is now going to proc the slow on the target as well as those close enough to the target. While this may seem like an upgrade and something new, it's actually not. Using current numbers on live as the example, if your stun lasts for 4 seconds, and the slow for 8 seconds, you've wasted half of the duration of your slow and are not getting the full effect from the slow. If the target isn't stunned, then and only then will you get the full benefit of the slow. Assuming this is a foe that's going to get stunned, that's far less value from the slow.

The only targets that get stunned are standard npc enemies, which you'll note don't actually run away from you in this game. Does anybody ever use Freezing Force in a solo context? I can't think of single target I'd ever want to slow that would get stunned by Blade Storm. The stun is nice for solo content, where you run into some enemies that'll actually get stunned by it. The slow will be very useful in pvp and neither is very useful in end game pve. (Just like right now Freezing Force is exclusively used in endgame PvE for its movement speed utility, and even then only very rarely).

 

As for the "upgrade" to Blade Storm, combining Freezing Force and Blade Storm doesn't give us anything new that we don't already have. You're not creating new content, you're simply shifting it around. This also takes a ton of control out of the hands of the player as to when their slow actually pops. Before you say it, yes I know the player decides what to hit and when, but if one wishes to be as effective as possible, you need to follow the rotation of your class. In this instance with Blade Storm as part of a rotation, you've removed completely the control over the slow. Currently as it sits on live, you can indeed get a utility point under the current system that extends the range to 30m. Cool, now we have 2 whole attacks with a 30m range (saber throw is the other.) At best, it maintains the status quo we have now, at the worst it completely steals control over when the slow procs from the player, and cuts its duration in half vs the target. So again, this is not an upgrade but a nerf.

 

Also under this new system, if you honestly think they're going to combine Blade Storm with Freezing Force AND let people use a 30m range for the power, you're kidding yourself. If they did let folks do that, then it would definitely prove they have no clue what they're doing. Photo for reference as to how large a range 30m is: https://imgur.com/a/m5VhM3x Where I'm standing in this photo is exactly 30m from the target. If you think they're going to give us a slow with that massive of a range, it would objectively be the most powerful slow in the game hands down. Get enough Guardians with that massive of a slow and you could cover entire maps with only a few people.

We already have a root with that large a range on live right now. Roots are generally a lot better than slows for what Juggernauts will want them for, chasing down targets.

 

Your line of logic here is clearly from the pvp perspective, and that's cool, we can debate this from a pvp perspective. With that said however PVP is NEVER a valid reason someone like myself on the PVE side of the game should ever have to give up an ability I've had since launch, or for years at the very least. That's basically telling an entire half of the game that they shouldn't be allowed to use abilities they were given, because the other half doesn't like it. Sorry but no, this isn't strictly a PVP game. Alot of the abilities being removed are iconic abilities, some of them even core defensive abilities. Thus a PVP change is being allowed to destroy the PVE side of the game. In this instance PVP is being allowed to rob PVE of critical and valuable tools cause "wah I can't kill this guy as fast as I want". IF an ability is too strong for PVP but is a critical tool in PVE, the solution is to disallow its use in PVP while leaving it alone for PVE. World of Warcraft has done this for nearly 8 years with Arenas and BGs and it's worked wonders for them. By further adding modifiers to certain abilities, it allows them to adjust an ability for PVP without ever effecting PVE and vice versa.

 

The reason I'm coming at this from a PvP perspective, is that if we're talking about slows and chasing targets down, that is already a PvP context. Mobs in this game don't run away from, as a melee character there really never is a reason to slow anything in PvE as far as I'm aware. I'm digging through my memory and I can't think of a single flashpoint or operation where I've ever used Freezing Force for its slowing effect.

 

You're also basing your entire line of logic on some very big "what ifs". "What IF it's done well" and "what if they stay." Based on the PTS we see that it's not going to be done well and is an absolute insult to the players at how subpar the product is. They say they want to give us more choice, and for us to use a broader variety of toolkit, yet their implementation steals choice from us and locks us to ability presets. That's the exact opposite of what they said they want to do. There's no "if implemented poorly" it's the poster child for what not to do. There's no "choosing between two abilities you can right now have both may be annoying at first)" it's a straight up nerf and theft of an ability. That'll never be something people enjoy. Again we have examples from World of Warcraft and Star Wars Galaxies before it that this sort of thing NEVER goes over well and only drives players away. If WoW, which is a much bigger game than SWTOR has ever been couldn't pull it off and had to walk back the prunings or go under, what makes you think SWTOR can do it? The simplest solution is to disable problem abilities in pvp and call it a day, which gives both sides what they want, AND saves the company a ton of cash on an unnecessary rebalance.

Well yeah it's all based on what ifs, because we're looking at a completely unfished product. I'm not saying not to criticize it, you definitely should. But it will change, and if we give concrete and useful feedback, it might change for the better. For instance a lot of people (myself included) feel that Saber Reflect and Saber throw are core parts of the Juggernauts identity as a class and should not be optional choices (sometimes forcing players to forgo them in favour of other abilities). And they've acknowledged that criticism. Will something actually happen with that? We'll have to wait and see, but PTS version this early on will definitely change plenty.

As for the ability toolkits, they're likely still working on how exactly to do the interface for picking abilities. Right now we're stuck with the presets, which is very annoying, but we will definitely get the option to mix and match ourselves at some point on the PTS, as this is the clearly stated goal for the update.

Why revamp? Just be good stewards of a 10 year old game?

 

The only time you need to revamp a mechanic in a game is if its not working as intended. But this seems like new Dev's don't like the direction the old Dev's went with DCD's over time?

 

So rather than being good stewards of the game they inherited from 10 years on, they're going to pull it apart for new players that are rolling Level 70's and don't understand what all the buttons do because they didn't learn the game from Level 1 as it was designed to be played...??

IMO... Valid point !

Change in this game is inevitable ! The UI alone is proof of that ! Hopefully there will be a serious look into how this is handled by the time it is released for the general public.

Hey I just realized something...

 

Anyone have thoughts on this:

 

The Devs want to go to Level 80, and don't have any room to add new skills, so they've decided to do this consolidation because they can't accommodate any additional level progression with the current skill trees????!!!

 

Off hand .. I'd say that is not the case. I really think that "simplification" is the driving force behind it. One of the team members actually said that the coding was getting to be quite tedious (IIRC that was particularly when it came to PvP). That statement was made not too long ago (like within the last couple of weeks ( ... I'll have to see if I can find it ! And since that is an actual statement of "FACT" I can only conclude that it IS the motivating or driving factor behind the decision to rework the entire system of all classes.

See above, PVP is NEVER a valid reason that I on the PVE side of the game should be told "you can't use that ability now" or vice versa.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not what is happening. PvP and NiM raiding are what the devs balance this game's combat around. Frankly, the rest of the content in the game is facerollingly easy. (here's me on a level 23 toon on a level 40 planet https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RMikllrU-DdF9CI6SA7hNXNiM_1DkdpL/view?usp=sharing)

10m is a respectable range, but isn't as large as you think it is. It's a larger range than virtually all melee abilities, but is still nothing compared to the range on most basic attacks from a ranged dps character.

I tried, but I just can't let this thing about Blade Storm go. Your problem with this change as far as ranged is concerned is completely nonsensical. You talk about this in your original post and video, how they're making the slow useful outside of a 10m range. But this makes no sense whatsoever, as Blade Storm's range is larger than Freezing Force, which is what applies the slow right now. Freezing Force is useless if you can't get within 8m of your target. In this one aspect, they are making the ability objectively better. Yet you feel the need to bring this up twice in the video.

Also, as a little aside, you keep calling it a melee ability. And maybe this is a US/EU difference in lingo, but I've never heard someone use melee to describe a 10m range ability. When people say melee range they generally mean 4m range, the range of the actual saber strike abilities in this game, at least in my experience. And I think this is a distinction worth making, because that seems to be where the confusion is coming from. If they put the slow on a melee ability, it would be a nerf to the range, but putting it on Blade Storm actually increases the range.

IMO... Valid point !

 

Change in this game is inevitable ! The UI alone is proof of that ! Hopefully there will be a serious look into how this is handled by the time it is released for the general public.

 

 

 

Off hand .. I'd say that is not the case. I really think that "simplification" is the driving force behind it. One of the team members actually said that the coding was getting to be quite tedious (IIRC that was particularly when it came to PvP). That statement was made not too long ago (like within the last couple of weeks ( ... I'll have to see if I can find it ! And since that is an actual statement of "FACT" I can only conclude that it IS the motivating or driving factor behind the decision to rework the entire system of all classes.

Regarding the last part of your post -

That's scary Apple Fritters level disdain for the code, and says to me that they are understaffed and overworked, and are dealing with code they didn't design or write.

I've never even heard of a company that takes a legacy code and starts pruning it because they find it tedious to code - EA is not staffing Bioware at sufficient levels so that the Coding Team, if there even still is one and they aren't outsourcing Coding to a contractor... can do their job.

I'm gobsmacked that came out of the mouth of a Developer.

I'm gobsmacked that came out of the mouth of a Developer.

It's been ten years since the game's release, and they are working with third party engine, which limits their ability to affect changes in it.

You really shouldn't be that surprised.

...I'm gobsmacked that came out of the mouth of a Developer.

It didn't. The actual quote in question is about DCDs and TTK. It's not about the coding process.

Over several years and updates, more and more defensive cooldowns and abilities have been added to the game. Often times this was for class balance purposes, to allow some classes to keep up with others in terms of their defensive kit. Additionally, this was done without adjusting things like Operation boss mechanics which were designed around the class kits available at the time: mainly less defensive cooldowns. The sheer quantity of defensive cooldowns in the game today makes things more difficult to balance for both PvE and PvP. It has made some PvE mechanics completely avoidable, and made the time-to-kill metric in PvP grow steadily to the point where we are approaching tedious levels.

It didn't. The actual quote in question is about DCDs and TTK. It's not about the coding process.

I appreciate the clarification .. MUCH appreciated.

But you are still overlooking one matter: There has not been any significant changes since the switch over from skill tree to the current standard of "disciplines". And THAT was a LONG time ago. That is unless of course you add to those disciplines :

** amplifiers (there is a HUGE amount of different amplifiers )

** tactical

** and updated set bonus

It would be interesting to see just exactly how these different items affect the game and what it takes to add them into PvP arenas .

Still .. IMO if there are programming issues then there is a good chance that is the driving force behind this. AND that pretty much means change is coming. Hopefully when this is done the feed back has helped enough to make a difference.

Stripping out that many of the DCD's is not going to help make things better for a LOT of players !

I appreciate the clarification .. MUCH appreciated.

 

But you are still overlooking one matter: There has not been any significant changes since the switch over from skill tree to the current standard of "disciplines". And THAT was a LONG time ago. That is unless of course you add to those disciplines :

** amplifiers (there is a HUGE amount of different amplifiers )

** tactical

** and updated set bonus

 

It would be interesting to see just exactly how these different items affect the game and what it takes to add them into PvP arenas .

 

Still .. IMO if there are programming issues then there is a good chance that is the driving force behind this. AND that pretty much means change is coming. Hopefully when this is done the feed back has helped enough to make a difference.

 

Stripping out that many of the DCD's is not going to help make things better for a LOT of players !

No overlooking here. My post was specifically about nipping any "coding is tedious" misquote drama before it spiraled. I didn't state an opinion on the content of the quote at all. With that out of the way...

Like you, I absolutely believe change is coming. All games suffer the burden of spaghetti-code after a while, in addition to evolving norms. I don't know if I'll like the end result of this next expansion or not, but I'll do the playtests, post my opinions where and when appropriate, and see what comes of it. As I've said elsewhere, I play this game mostly because I get to tackle different parts of it with my guildies, not so much because of any great hook from the game itself. If I didn't have a great guild, well...

It didn't. The actual quote in question is about DCDs and TTK. It's not about the coding process.

Ah i c thank you for clearing that up with the correct quote.

So PVPers played the game as designed with brutal efficiency "Sith Style" and broke Bioware's game.

Hmmm wonder who we should blame?

Oh I know --- blame the players

Let's face it, there hasn't been any attempt to revamp any of the classes in a long, long time. The combat team gives us a new ability every expansion without really taking one away. So if you wanted to revamp and rebalance all classes/specs while preserving the class/spec's "feel," where would you start?

This is actually a pretty good question.

Assuming some constraints, based on Bioware being Bioware and not being able to turn the steering wheel more than a degree or two even if they're very obviously headed over a cliff. . . .

Step one, is keep the base rotation.

• Always have a button to press on the GCD, no having to sit around waiting for a few GCDs for things to come off cooldown because too many abilities were pruned
  
• Takes care of whatever resource management the class/spec/style uses.
  
• Does baseline DPS for DPS styles, baseline DPS and threat for Tank styles, and baseline healing for healing styles.
  

Step two, looking at particular tasks: DPS, Tank, Heal, decide what "archetype" styles of play you want to create within those broad categories

• DPS single target vs a.o.e, DPS sustained vs Burst, DPS glass cannon vs survivable
  
• Heal tank heal vs raid, Heal single target vs rolling HOTs, Heal cast time vs instants, Heal repair damage vs prevent damage
  
• Tank DCD use vs passive mitigation, Tank single target vs swap vs adds, Tank pure survival vs offtank/DPS
  

Pick selections and think about what can be combined to make a given broad role have a different playstyle feel depending on selected spec/combat style. Basically, choose the "styles" that you want to make work.

Step three, from the non-rotational abilities, creating new ones if needed, create powerful "signature" abilities or combinations of abilities that provide the tools needed for the above styles to work.

So for example, a sustained AOE DPS needs to be able to spread the damage around without running dry on resources. Whether that's through DOTs, really cheap and somewhat harder hitting aoe attacks, or some off cooldown super spammy tab targeting attack, or all of the above, they need tools that can do the job, and that give the player the feel that they are doing the job well. Ideally the mechanical details are different too. Say for example a particular order of attacks to land the signature move, vs maintaining a series of buffs/debuffs on self/target, vs having a damage boost CD to trigger at the right time, or whatever. Make differences in player input management tasks to help make the different styles feel different.

The end result should be that a player can say that, "I play [this-class] in [this_combat-style] to perform [this_role] in [this_style] using [these_signature_abilities] in [this player input style].

The mechanics also have to: A) WORK, and B) Match the purported feel enough so that the player feels there's a meaningful difference between different combat styles.

Step 4. Go back and check for balance, preferably based on PTS player feedback. Nerf the unintended interactions that were better than you meant to make them, buff signature moves of styles that are under-performing.

Then take a look at utilities. Determine the basic toolkit everyone needs for PvE, and hand that out. Then look at whether that's enough for PvP, and selectively hand out a bit more to class-style combinations that need it for balance. If any extras end up being needed bonus points for making the nature of the defenses mesh well with the combat style.

I mean, maybe this is what they're trying to do, but I don't really see the sort of interesting differentiation that would make it worthwhile yet on the PTS.

As a note, if they're doing "choose your own abilities" I'd rather have some sort of pre-defined intended specs that meet all the above requirements with meaningfully different playstyles than a collection of very bland interchangeable abilities that aren't allowed to be interesting for the sake of balance. Fun illusion of choice is probably better than boring free but meaningless choice.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not what is happening. PvP and NiM raiding are what the devs balance this game's combat around. Frankly, the rest of the content in the game is facerollingly easy. (here's me on a level 23 toon on a level 40 planet https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RMikllrU-DdF9CI6SA7hNXNiM_1DkdpL/view?usp=sharing)

Well that's only because they destroyed the leveling content in patches 3.0 and 4.0. Didn't use to be that way. You would certainly be destroyed if the content was how it was originally intended.

Full rotations were used during class story bosses/missions, aswell as stimpacks/medpacks, and God Forbid,

maybe even grouping with someone if you were really stuck....

Well that's only because they destroyed the leveling content in patches 3.0 and 4.0.

 

Full rotations were used during class story bosses/missions, aswell as stimpacks/medpacks, and God Forbid,

maybe even grouping with someone if you were really stuck....

Bingo. ^

And now, years later, we see what happens when Developers cater to the lowest-common-denominator (skill wise) transient insatiable gamer , instead of sticking with their original plans (story pillar) and allowing a more appropriate type of loyal & challenge-seeking playerbase slowly (but surely) build their inve$tment for the long-term (10 years) while BioWare kept adding content, QoL , expanded crafting, space exploration, etc. etc.

In other words, if you build it, they (STAR WARS fans) will come....and stay.

Instead we got: If we RE-build it again & again, some will come & spend (Cartel Market) ....but most will go.

Perhaps EA is betting that , because of SWTOR's limited game-engine handicap, the only way to possibly go out with a nice 10th Anniversary *holiday season bang* is to offer the most drastic 'combat revamp' yet.