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Emperor's Wrath vs. Darth Nox (spoilers)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Emperor's Wrath vs. Darth Nox (spoilers)

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
12.26.2013 , 02:53 PM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by Frenesi View Post
Tyranus defeated them with lightsaber, not with force. Also Satele never defeated Malgus. Both times she survived becouse of "teamplay".

Point is - every fight always ends up as saber duel. It's much more fun to watch then force duel. So they use it every time. And the best fighter wins. Even if he is less powerful in the force.
I think, while Darth Vader was more technically skilled and far more experienced, his Force connection had been badly damaged by the wounds of Mustafar and his cybernetics, and the less-experienced-but-much-stronger-in-the-Force Luke Skywalker had that weakness to thank for his victory in Return of the Jedi. Also, Dooku used both a lightsaber and the Force directly; he did get some nice lightning shots in, and the Inquisitor will possess both as well.

Girdeux's Avatar


Girdeux
12.26.2013 , 07:31 PM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
Sidious was clearly not fighting with everything he had.
Yes he was, as I said. It was stated in the ROTS commentary that Sidious was going 100% and lost. How do people not know this by know? This information is 6+ years old already.

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
12.26.2013 , 08:07 PM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
Yes he was, as I said. It was stated in the ROTS commentary that Sidious was going 100% and lost. How do people not know this by know? This information is 6+ years old already.
Because he's blatantly lying about being out of power, as is shown onscreen by the fact that he has plenty more left when he blasts Mace once the lightsaber is off of him. It seems most likely that the previous hypothesis of the battle effectively being able to continue indefinitely is correct.

Path-x's Avatar


Path-x
12.26.2013 , 08:07 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
Yes he was, as I said. It was stated in the ROTS commentary that Sidious was going 100% and lost. How do people not know this by know? This information is 6+ years old already.
Lost against who? Windu? I don't think so. He let himself be disarmed because that was part of his plan to turn Anakin. The entire thing was orchestrated and perfectly timed. He wouldn't look like a victim if he was spinning his lightsabre when Anakin marched in. I though this was so obvious that 6 years old can easily decipher.
Jedi: You won the day, Sith. So, kill me if you must.
Warrior: I must.

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
12.26.2013 , 08:15 PM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by Path-x View Post
Lost against who? Windu? I don't think so. He let himself be disarmed because that was part of his plan to turn Anakin. The entire thing was orchestrated and perfectly timed. He wouldn't look like a victim if he was spinning his lightsabre when Anakin marched in. I though this was so obvious that 6 years old can easily decipher.
To be fair, it's not unknown for official sources to give terrible explanations for things, like saying that stormtrooper blaster rifles have inherently bad accuracy, as opposed to just saying that the accuracy wasn't that bad for the situations they found themselves in. Which is true; many times, they were simply herding the heroes (on the Death Star and at Cloud City), while at other times, they were perfectly accurate and lethal (Tantive IV, Tatooine, Hoth). The only genuine screwup was at Endor, and that was pretty explicitly arrogance of the sort that RL elite soldiers are hardly immune to.

Girdeux's Avatar


Girdeux
12.26.2013 , 08:46 PM | #146
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
To be fair, it's not unknown for official sources to give terrible explanations for things
This isnt just ANY official source, it comes from Lucas.

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... " LUCAS ROTS COMMENTARY

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

Sorry fans. Windu > Sidious in that battle.

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
12.26.2013 , 11:35 PM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
This isnt just ANY official source, it comes from Lucas.

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... " LUCAS ROTS COMMENTARY

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

Sorry fans. Windu > Sidious in that battle.
Sure, Palpatine would have been happy to destroy Mace had he been able to, but had he kept the lightning up, Windu would have continued to be held off (and he could also have rolled out of the way or some similar move). He couldn't destroy Windu outright in that moment, but he only dropped his hands and pretended to be beaten to manipulate Anakin.

Path-x's Avatar


Path-x
12.27.2013 , 07:27 AM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... " LUCAS ROTS COMMENTARY
This not any kind of explanation as to why Palpatine was "overpowered". Lucas is there just stating the obvious - what we can see in the scene superficially. In another words, Mace disarms Palpatine and then Palpatine uses force lighting, plain and simple. He is not denying that Palpatine let himself be "overpowered". In fact I don't think Lucas would ever directly admit that it was part of the scheme (even when it is so obvious). The reason for that is that he would then say that all Jedi failed miserably against Palpatine which would be like saying the dark side is obviously stronger. By that he would infuriate the poor fans who love Jedi.
Jedi: You won the day, Sith. So, kill me if you must.
Warrior: I must.

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
12.27.2013 , 07:32 AM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by Path-x View Post
This not any kind of explanation as to why Palpatine was "overpowered". Lucas is there just stating the obvious - what we can see in the scene superficially. In another words, Mace disarms Palpatine and then Palpatine uses force lighting, plain and simple. He is not denying that Palpatine let himself be "overpowered". In fact I don't think Lucas would ever directly admit that it was part of the scheme (even when it is so obvious). The reason for that is that he would then say that all Jedi failed miserably against Palpatine which would be like saying the dark side is obviously stronger. By that he would infuriate the poor fans who love Jedi.
It doesn't really say that the dark side is stronger (it's logical to say that it may be stronger in terms of aiding combat, because it's all about aggression, but there's more to strength in the Force than combat), just that Palpatine is an abnormally powerful individual, which he is. And Return of the Jedi shows that power clearly isn't everything.

Path-x's Avatar


Path-x
12.27.2013 , 07:39 AM | #150
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
It doesn't really say that the dark side is stronger (it's logical to say that it may be stronger in terms of aiding combat, because it's all about aggression, but there's more to strength in the Force than combat), just that Palpatine is an abnormally powerful individual, which he is. And Return of the Jedi shows that power clearly isn't everything.
Yes you are right. I poorly expressed myself. It would actually mean that at that point in history no Jedi could rival this Sith. I see this scene as two-fold: primary it shows the cherry on the top of the cake of Palpatine's great manipulation; and secondary it is a candy for Jedi lovers to calm them and let them believe Windu actually defeated Palpatine.
Jedi: You won the day, Sith. So, kill me if you must.
Warrior: I must.