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the 4 billion credit cap for Subscribers is worse than F2P limits

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
the 4 billion credit cap for Subscribers is worse than F2P limits

Sarova's Avatar


Sarova
02.24.2021 , 05:26 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
A quick Google search finds the price of a billion credits retail to be somewhere around $20-$25 USD.

Even if we assume someone is very good at farming credits and can farm 10 million credits an hour, hour after hour (raw credits - not selling CM stuff or farming ranked / NiM mats), a billion credits would still take 100 hours.

And that is before deducting the fees the seller would incur such as payment fees (credit cards / PayPal / whatever) and fees to the person or organization or whatever behind the credit selling site.

So I am to believe there are players spending 100 hours for less than $20?
I'm an in-game multibilionnaire, only because I decided I was fed up being in-game poor! I don't farm (100 hours running round doing the same thing over and over? Nah. Definitely not for me). The nearest to farming I got was doing H2s before they were made worthless (the tonnes of tat that used to drop from mobs during H2s used to be vendor valuable. Now everything is level-synched, armour drops are nothing but deconstruction fodder). I've never raided so I save a lot of credits not being geared to best and I no longer PvP since the changes came in so don't need to be geared for that any more either. I stopped upgrading my characters amplifiers because why bother as a soloer - that is a ridiculous and unnecessary expense if you have loads of alts.

I find it quite easy to make credits as a soloer. I also stopped bothering with most higher level crafting after realising that anything after 600 skill is a waste of time and effort. I just make the highest level medpacs and stims for my alts rather than sell them. I do sell low level crafted stuff instead & low level mats when I can be bothered to list them (I don't farm mats; I just pick them up if they happen to be in front of a character or send my companions on missions). I sell CM Cartel packs that I buy with my sub CC reward - they are quite valuable right now.
I'm also a spendaholic so I'd probably have several billion more if I didn't keep buying things like character-to-level-70-boosts (for altoholics, they are a godsend) and SH decorations from the GTN.
Buying credits off sellers with real life money? Nope.
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robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
02.24.2021 , 09:27 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
I wasn't suggesting everyone with a billion credits or more is a cheater - I have billions just like many players that have played the game for years.

However, I'm also certain that most of my credits have come from selling stuff to other players (mostly crafting, some flipping), not from any credits earned on missions or looted from enemies (in other words, most of my credits came from someone else with credits, not the game itself).

So no, I still don't believe most of the excessive credits chasing items on the GTN driving the silly inflation originated from players looting every enemy and completing a bunch of missions over time.

And just because you have never seen a gold farmer in any game doesn't mean they don't exist - I mean where do you think the sellers advertising 1 billion credits for $20 bucks get their stock?
Where did I say that I've never seen one? I've never used one is what I said, why try to twist that?
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
02.25.2021 , 03:25 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by hof_th View Post
Be careful what you wish for Trixxie, last time we had a Tax increase a lot of the prices increased too, as the sellers simply transferred the increase to the buyers.

If you really want to get prices on the GTN under control, make the deposit a percentage of the sale price that only gets refunded when an item sells. Problems with that would be that the "rich" would remain so while the "poor" would have an even harder time to catch up and it would almost certainly hurt CM sales since suddenly the sellers would run the risk of losing money and would perceive a devaluation of their CCs.
Iím talking about a sliding scale tax. Not a flat rate across the board. They could even reduce the tax on items below 100,000 credits.

Ie, you could start the tax at 2% or 3 % and scale it up to 20%. Something like this :
2% = 1 - 20,000 credits
3% = 20,001 - 40,000 credits
etc
etc
etc
20% = 500,000,000 - 1,000,000,000 credits

The idea isnít to hurt anyone, but to remove excess credits from the game. If someone sells something for 500,000,000 credits, they pay 20% tax on it. They still get a heap of credits, but BioWare takes 100,000,000 credits out of the game.
If the person buying can afford to pay that much for something, they have plenty of credits, so itís not hurting anyone.

On the flip side, you might find the savvy seller realising they can sell something at a lower price and get nearly the same return because they pay less tax and they might make more in the long run because they can sell more of them. That would actually reduce costs and some inflation on the GTN.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
02.25.2021 , 04:04 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
A quick Google search finds the price of a billion credits retail to be somewhere around $20-$25 USD.

Even if we assume someone is very good at farming credits and can farm 10 million credits an hour, hour after hour (raw credits - not selling CM stuff or farming ranked / NiM mats), a billion credits would still take 100 hours.

And that is before deducting the fees the seller would incur such as payment fees (credit cards / PayPal / whatever) and fees to the person or organization or whatever behind the credit selling site.

So I am to believe there are players spending 100 hours for less than $20?

I find that highly doubtful.

Exploits that allow someone to gain far more credits an hour than is possible with general (non-exploitive) gameplay and bots that can run 24 / 7 unattended - that I can believe.

EDIT TO ADD: I mentioned the mats as one of the proposed hypothetical ways large amounts of credits were being generated by actual players was well-geared groups running group content.

I can't think of any content that provides anywhere near millions per player per hour in raw credits (absent exploits) - and any geared group capable of running all content would most likely focus on farming ranked and NIM for mats to sell to others or selling services such as runs for achievements, titles, and mounts.
Actually, itís very easy to make credits if youíve been playing for a number of years and have learnt how the economy works.

Itís also easier to not waste credits on things you donít need to play the actual game and save them. If you just play the game as itís meant to be played, those hundreds or in my case thousands of hours add up.

I donít play the game to make credits, I play the game and get credits along the way. I donít give the credits I get a monetary value because that would be stupid. Iím playing a game to have fun and relax. Itís called recreation and I donít place a monetary value on it the same as I donít place a monetary value on how many hours I sleep or lay in bed.

Iíve given advice over the years on how to make credits crafting or on the GTN. The best advice is to not waste your mats crafting something you will then sell for less than the mats themselves are worth. I see this happening all the time on the GTN and it blows my mind how allergic players are to making easy credits. They would rather engage in price wars and market domination at the expense of actually making any credits,

Iíll give you an example of what Iím talking about. Letís take black and light gray dyes as the example. They are an extremely popular color and always in high demand, but some people flood the market with them at extremely cheap prices and then others engage in price wars with them that drive the price even lower. The prices actually go lower than what the mats by themselves sell for on the GTN. On top of that, black and light gray belong to a group of 6 dyes that use the mats and you can make those other dyes and sell them for 3-4 times what the black and gray dyes are worth.

The issue isnít people botting in this game to make credits, the issue is people donít take the time to understand the principles of making credits.
I literally make a couple 100 million a week on a slow week and a couple billion a month on a good month. I donít spend all my time farming mats or crafting, but I do a small amount each time Iím on. I also always send my crew off on missions when Iím logged in. I look for good deals on mats on the GTN or people selling things too cheap. I then buy them and relist what I donít want to keep.

My general advice for the GTN is donít be the cheapest. People will still buy your stuff if you arenít the cheapest
Donít engage in price wars because all you do is drive the price down
Donít overlist and flood the market or you drive the price down.
Only list 1-2 of the same thing at a time. Make sure you have a large portfolio of things to sell so you arenít reliant on one thing. Variety is what you need.
Make your items stand out. Iím not going to tell you how to do that, everyone has their methods and Iím not going to give away all my knowledge.

Lastly, if you want to make credits you have to do the work. But at the same time you should work smart and not hard because working smart will net you way more credits than working too hard.

Have there been exploits in the past? Sure there have.
Are there credit sellers in the game that use people from low economic areas to farm and then sell the credits for real $$? Sure there are and Bioware always has an uphill battle to fight them.

But there are no exploits at the moment and those of us making lots of credits are able to because we understand how the games economy works. We arenít cheating and we arenít exploiting to do it. Taking our hard earned credits as some have suggested to reset the economy would make a lot of players quit instantly. It would probably kill the game over night.

Is inflation high?
Yes it is on some items. But some other items have completely lost their value or become stagnant. The only solution that the majority of players would accept to curb the inflation or reduce the amount of credits in the game is from credits sinks. But most players donít want credit sinks that limit their game play or affect mechanics that slow it down. Ie, RNG mechanics that use gambling as a credit sink.
The best credit sink in this game is the GTN tax and itís why Iíll keep saying that Bioware should look at making it a sliding tax based on how much something is sold for.

DawnAskham's Avatar


DawnAskham
02.25.2021 , 08:00 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Actually, itís very easy to make credits if youíve been playing for a number of years and have learnt how the economy works.

Itís also easier to not waste credits on things you donít need to play the actual game and save them. If you just play the game as itís meant to be played, those hundreds or in my case thousands of hours add up.

I donít play the game to make credits, I play the game and get credits along the way. I donít give the credits I get a monetary value because that would be stupid. Iím playing a game to have fun and relax. Itís called recreation and I donít place a monetary value on it the same as I donít place a monetary value on how many hours I sleep or lay in bed.

Iíve given advice over the years on how to make credits crafting or on the GTN. The best advice is to not waste your mats crafting something you will then sell for less than the mats themselves are worth. I see this happening all the time on the GTN and it blows my mind how allergic players are to making easy credits. They would rather engage in price wars and market domination at the expense of actually making any credits,

Iíll give you an example of what Iím talking about. Letís take black and light gray dyes as the example. They are an extremely popular color and always in high demand, but some people flood the market with them at extremely cheap prices and then others engage in price wars with them that drive the price even lower. The prices actually go lower than what the mats by themselves sell for on the GTN. On top of that, black and light gray belong to a group of 6 dyes that use the mats and you can make those other dyes and sell them for 3-4 times what the black and gray dyes are worth.

The issue isnít people botting in this game to make credits, the issue is people donít take the time to understand the principles of making credits.
I literally make a couple 100 million a week on a slow week and a couple billion a month on a good month. I donít spend all my time farming mats or crafting, but I do a small amount each time Iím on. I also always send my crew off on missions when Iím logged in. I look for good deals on mats on the GTN or people selling things too cheap. I then buy them and relist what I donít want to keep.

My general advice for the GTN is donít be the cheapest. People will still buy your stuff if you arenít the cheapest
Donít engage in price wars because all you do is drive the price down
Donít overlist and flood the market or you drive the price down.
Only list 1-2 of the same thing at a time. Make sure you have a large portfolio of things to sell so you arenít reliant on one thing. Variety is what you need.
Make your items stand out. Iím not going to tell you how to do that, everyone has their methods and Iím not going to give away all my knowledge.

Lastly, if you want to make credits you have to do the work. But at the same time you should work smart and not hard because working smart will net you way more credits than working too hard.

Have there been exploits in the past? Sure there have.
Are there credit sellers in the game that use people from low economic areas to farm and then sell the credits for real $$? Sure there are and Bioware always has an uphill battle to fight them.

But there are no exploits at the moment and those of us making lots of credits are able to because we understand how the games economy works. We arenít cheating and we arenít exploiting to do it. Taking our hard earned credits as some have suggested to reset the economy would make a lot of players quit instantly. It would probably kill the game over night.

Is inflation high?
Yes it is on some items. But some other items have completely lost their value or become stagnant. The only solution that the majority of players would accept to curb the inflation or reduce the amount of credits in the game is from credits sinks. But most players donít want credit sinks that limit their game play or affect mechanics that slow it down. Ie, RNG mechanics that use gambling as a credit sink.
The best credit sink in this game is the GTN tax and itís why Iíll keep saying that Bioware should look at making it a sliding tax based on how much something is sold for.
I agree with most of what you wrote and quite a bit of what others have written - and am certainly not suggesting or supportive of any of the idiotic suggestions that pop up in these types of threads (wealth tax, hard cap credit limits, reset all credits, etc).

And yes, it isn't hard to 'make credits' in this game, and most people should be able to afford most in-game items with a bit of time and effort without having to play GTN games (selling CM items, flipping, crafting, mats, etc).

However and as with several other posters / typical replies about 'making credits', NONE of what you have written about how you or others make credits has anything to do with the supply of credits in the economy.

Crafting, selling mats, flipping items, selling CM items - NONE of those activities ADD credits to the economy - they simply move credits around (and when using the GTN, some are removed).

And while the prices for in-game items (items sold by game vendors/systems) have not risen and many general-purpose items have had stagnant pricing (such as basic crafted items), desirable and low supply CM stuff has seen high inflation while the value of credits relative to real-world currency has dropped.

For examp[le, less than a year ago a Masters Datacron could be had for 50-60 million - good luck finding one for less than 200 million today.

At the same time, less than a year ago sellers were spamming everywhere with $20 buying approximately 200 million credits - and while today their spam is much less prevalent, $20 now buys approximately 1 billion credits.

Yet with all that inflation, mission payouts and credits from drops have stayed stagnant (many were nerfed going into 6.0), and credits from drops and completing missions just doesn't provide billions in raw credits.

So my hypothesis is that there are still exploits and / or bots in-game that are continuing to pump credits into the economy beyond what would be expected from normal gameplay.

And it is just that - a hypothesis based on observable though limited data.

NONE of which is to say everyone or even many / most with billions of credits are exploiting or botting or buying credits (or again that I in any way support any of the idiotic ideas that can be summarized as 'just take away all their credits').

But I understand that the credits I pull out of the GTN every day have to come from somewhere, and IMO, the math when looking at activities that add raw credits does not add up to the levels of inflation.

And IMO the current levels of inflation are unhealthy and undesirable for the game - and I'd like to see better management of the economy by Bioware going forward to slow inflation.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
02.25.2021 , 08:00 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Actually, itís very easy to make credits if youíve been playing for a number of years and have learnt how the economy works.

Itís also easier to not waste credits on things you donít need to play the actual game and save them. If you just play the game as itís meant to be played, those hundreds or in my case thousands of hours add up.
LIES!!! It's never easy to not spend credits on things I don't need, which is why I'm never rich in any MMO. It's shiny, and I wants it is enough reason for me to spend credits...

EDIT: Which is why some people are rich, I might add...
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
02.25.2021 , 10:14 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post

[/snip]
.
Yes I did read what you read.. and there is a lot good information there.

BUT .. there are still a couple of issues that seem to be a point of contention;
** Where are the credits coming from ? Frankly I had just a little over 80 Mil credits that I EARNED just PLAYING the game. If I wanted to upgrade any part of the armor (pre 6.0) It was a real struggle. Soooo I just began to invest small amounts of credits in the GTN.

Now hang on a sec !! No this does not account for BILLIONS ! BUT that is how I started out ! I think some would be shocked to know just how little so many players start out with just before they do just what I did.

** Credit farmers ... they do exist. It's been a long time since we read the post (and I don't remember what area) ... but it was posted in detail how literally hundreds of millions of credits could be earned by playing in a guild that was geared to a lot of high end game play ( obviously not done in story mode ) . BUT this player was also into not just FP's .. but OP's and other aspects of the game as well.

YES there really are people who you know ... actually play SWTOR !! ...

AND further more they're pretty darn good at it too !! They EARN those rewards !! Nothing wrong with that. They should not be penalized for those efforts.

** Bots.. ??? possibly. But before we start looking at another part of the game that gets nerfed due to the "possibility" of cheating we really need to get this cleared up and focus on an appropriate action to take against those who are guilty of said exploit.

** Credit sellers. If I had my way they would ALL be shut down over night !! (or sooner). I don't know of anyone who would object to that !!

** The high (or over priced) augments ?? If augments (or even mods) that were reasonably close to the specs on those crafted were available at the "fleet" with LESS RNG attached to them I could almost guarantee a drop in the cost on the GTN. Heck .. even if those augments were available as rare drops in game that would change things quite a bit !!

Taxation ... that rarely stops things. In fact that often contributes to additional inflation. ( I would personally just adjust my cost accordingly ... as I already do !! )
I sense a disturbance in the force ....
What was ... is no longer
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DarkTergon's Avatar


DarkTergon
02.25.2021 , 12:11 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post
So my hypothesis is that there are still exploits and / or bots in-game that are continuing to pump credits into the economy beyond what would be expected from normal gameplay.

And it is just that - a hypothesis based on observable though limited data.
This is quite possible, but you have to remember CQ generates a lot of credits, and with more and more people pushing their alts through it, this has been one huge source of credits. As well as that, there are a lot more loot drops these days, especially when 75. All this adds to the increasing pool of credits.

Quote: Originally Posted by DawnAskham View Post

And IMO the current levels of inflation are unhealthy and undesirable for the game - and I'd like to see better management of the economy by Bioware going forward to slow inflation.
I agree with this, but I think they've left it too long, I'm not sure there is any reasonable approach they can, or even want to take to stabilise it.

DawnAskham's Avatar


DawnAskham
02.25.2021 , 12:15 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Where did I say that I've never seen one? I've never used one is what I said, why try to twist that?
Maybe use the word 'used' if you mean 'used', as in 'I've never used a credit seller' instead of 'I've never hit a credit seller' which is what you wrote.

Anyways, I was not trying to twist what you wrote - I simply misunderstood.

Stradlin's Avatar


Stradlin
02.25.2021 , 04:14 PM | #60
Roflmao!! Term "1st world problem" is too 32 bit to fully describe how obscene this concern is. Roll a bank alt, name her Marie Antoinette and drop 4 bils on her.

This is truly the largest non issue in the history of non issues!


The mega-inflation is so huge that credits are getting more and more impractical though. Maybe BW could introduce something like "platinium credit": players would have the option to turn 1 bil normal credits into 1 platinium credit. It'd also fix the turbo primadonna issue of evil 4 bil cap holding your characters' finances a hostage.