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[TFA Spoilers] coexistence of SWTOR canon and Disney canon


mangleswore

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I posted this on another thread, but it quickly became much longer than intended, to the point that I feel a new thread is warranted. The question... Does TFA ruin the continuity of swtor lore? Is swtor confirmed to be in disagreement with Canon material?

 

To me this question is the biggest conflict between swtor and Disney canon. Han says, those who know Luke best believe he left to search for the first Jedi temple. Its been confirmed that the planet Luke was found on its not Tython, so that's a bummer. I'm still trying to grasp at something that explains this controversy between tor lore and canon lore, and have come up with three potential explanations so far.

 

1)We don't know for sure that Han's belief that Luke was searching for the first temple is ACTUALLY what Luke was doing (it probably was though, why mislead the audience that way) .

 

2) We don't know that Luke has completed his search for the first temple, maybe he never found it (this seams unlikely because the map correctly directed Rey to Luke, which means he either found the temple, gave up looking, or point one above is accurate. The ruins in the final scene certainly allude to an ancient structure unfortunately)

 

3) (This is the point that I hope out how for as the most likely scapegoat for tor, but I need the help of people more familiar with tor lore to confirm my hopes. ) We know that Tython is the birthplace of Force users/Jedi, BUT I'm not aware of it ever being explicitly stated that the first TEMPLE was built on Tython. Obviously it would be assumed that the first temple was Tythonian, but if it's never directly referenced in the game, then you could argue that the jedi first constructed a temple elsewhere, possibly somewhere more relevant to the Republic, or more secretive to preserve the purity of the order (away from the Republic).

 

4) It is Disney canon that jedi archives can be erased of information (Kamino) by individuals/groups (effectively erasing knowledge of that planet's existence from the entire galaxy. Its still possible that Tython and the Disney planet (Ahch-To) are the SAME. The name tython has simply been lost to time and/or an intentional removal of that planet's existence from galaxy wide knowledge (not an unreasonable possibility). Even if Ahch-To is a water world, you could believe that Tythons climate changed, polar ice caps melted, and water unleased on 90% of the surface.

 

All of this is obviously crazy, but it really pulls me out of the swtor universe when I know that it is the equivalent of fan fiction in terms of the validity of the stories being told; the stories I want to invest time and emotion into.

 

Please, those more knowledgeable in topics I've posted here, enlighten me on aspects of the lore that enable or disprove my theories.

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All of this is obviously crazy, but it really pulls me out of the swtor universe when I know that it is the equivalent of fan fiction in terms of the validity of the stories being told; the stories I want to invest time and emotion into.

 

I know how you feel, but really the only thing that separates "canon" (a.k.a. Disney) lore from the rest is a huge paycheck.

 

As long as SWTOR is being published it´s as real as anything, no matter what Disney says. Who cares if it´s "official" or not? The Old Republic era´s lore predates the selling of Star Wars after all.

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I was upset when Disney decided the 150 books I bought over the years never happened. I was slightly disappointed that nothing from the EU even gets a nod.

 

But in answer to your question, I doubt they are going to say Han was wrong. The planet has nothing to do with Tython. You can rationalize different ways to make it work in your head, but reality, is, it is not Tython. We all need to get over the fact that SWTOR never happened, even as it is happening. We need to get over the fact that 150 books, never happened. I need to get over the fact that my favorite character, Corran Horn, never existed. (Him and his father were even in SWG! Ran some quests for them.) My favorite series, X-Wing novels, never happened.

 

You can try to make up stuff to make it work, but it doesn't work. Just play the game to enjoy the game. The books on the other hand, most were never good writing. They were decent writing, but it was Star Wars. I haven't read one in 2 years, I have been so disappointed. They sit there on my shelf taunting me.

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I was upset when Disney decided the 150 books I bought over the years never happened. I was slightly disappointed that nothing from the EU even gets a nod.

 

Hey now, those 150 books gave you a good read at the very least (okay, probably not all 150 of them, but the point stil stands).

 

Though, is it really any different than what comic book fans have had to go through, through out the years? :p

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I was upset when Disney decided the 150 books I bought over the years never happened. I was slightly disappointed that nothing from the EU even gets a nod.

.

 

actually, there's a LOT of nods to the EU, out there. some minor some pretty major. in TFA alone..

 

1: the symbol of the new republic is slightly differnt, but the same general idea. (while we're at it, the very IDEA that the Republic's new government would be called the New Republic)

2: Kylo Ren/Darth Caedus.

3: Kylo Ren's lightsaber is a designed "used during the scourge of Malachor" (honestly I think it's pretty clear that the guys behind TFA where big KOTOR fans)

4: Rakata Prime is mentioned in the visual dictionary

 

I could proably find more if I looked.

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I posted this on another thread, but it quickly became much longer than intended, to the point that I feel a new thread is warranted. The question... Does TFA ruin the continuity of swtor lore? Is swtor confirmed to be in disagreement with Canon material?

 

To me this question is the biggest conflict between swtor and Disney canon. Han says, those who know Luke best believe he left to search for the first Jedi temple. Its been confirmed that the planet Luke was found on its not Tython, so that's a bummer. I'm still trying to grasp at something that explains this controversy between tor lore and canon lore, and have come up with three potential explanations so far.

 

1)We don't know for sure that Han's belief that Luke was searching for the first temple is ACTUALLY what Luke was doing (it probably was though, why mislead the audience that way) .

 

Indeed. Especially because Luke didn't say anything, but rather had the "where is my firewater?" look. Wedon't even know where he is or what's the importance of it. At least we don't until ep VIII.

 

2) We don't know that Luke has completed his search for the first temple, maybe he never found it (this seams unlikely because the map correctly directed Rey to Luke, which means he either found the temple, gave up looking, or point one above is accurate. The ruins in the final scene certainly allude to an ancient structure unfortunately)

 

Don't assume things. Just because there are ruins about, doesn't mean that he found the ancient temple. Besides, I'd expect that they would go for the bigger awe factor for the first temple. Wait for ep VIII.

 

3) (This is the point that I hope out how for as the most likely scapegoat for tor, but I need the help of people more familiar with tor lore to confirm my hopes. ) We know that Tython is the birthplace of Force users/Jedi, BUT I'm not aware of it ever being explicitly stated that the first TEMPLE was built on Tython. Obviously it would be assumed that the first temple was Tythonian, but if it's never directly referenced in the game, then you could argue that the jedi first constructed a temple elsewhere, possibly somewhere more relevant to the Republic, or more secretive to preserve the purity of the order (away from the Republic).

 

Indeed. Nobody EVER said that the first TEMPLE was built on TYTHON. For all we know, the followers of Rajivari could've built that temple Luke's looking for(after the reformation). Or some other random group of Jedi who thought that the best way to live is to go as far from home as possible(rogue Jedi leaving Tython / Galactic Core for Ahch-To, sure why not?). If the Consular story on Tython doesn't mention the first temple or anything like it, it could still be speculated. Sure, the first CITY was built on Tython and it was the central hub for the Force culture and hence the first temple was built there? WRONG. If it's not stated, maybe it wasn't. Maybe they were reformed (A)Gnostics. Purity of the Order specifically smells of "the Rajivari followers".

 

4) It is Disney canon that jedi archives can be erased of information (Kamino) by individuals/groups (effectively erasing knowledge of that planet's existence from the entire galaxy. Its still possible that Tython and the Disney planet (Ahch-To) are the SAME. The name tython has simply been lost to time and/or an intentional removal of that planet's existence from galaxy wide knowledge (not an unreasonable possibility). Even if Ahch-To is a water world, you could believe that Tythons climate changed, polar ice caps melted, and water unleased on 90% of the surface.

 

Just like Kamino right? Or how Korriban's name got changed to Moraband on a whim? Because the Jedi Archives can be tampered with...? Don't theyhave any security there? Do they just let ANYONE do ANYTHING there? I mean, would they allow citizens to have sex in the middle of library? They sure would if they allowed various suspicious entities to defile their sacred halls. And they did. So...:rak_01:

 

As for the climate of Ahch-to and Tython. How do we know how the REST of Tython looks like? I mean, the only place we can say FOR CERTAIN how it looks like are the valleys and the ridges surrounding the Jedi Temple(which, again, doesn't have to be "the First Jedi Temple"). For all we know, the rest of Tython could look EXACTLY like Ahch-To.

 

All of this is obviously crazy, but it really pulls me out of the swtor universe when I know that it is the equivalent of fan fiction in terms of the validity of the stories being told; the stories I want to invest time and emotion into.

 

Why? SWTOR has phenomenal stories, some of which are borderline on the whole trilogy level. Maybe even above it. Taken as a whole, it is even better than the movies. I LOVE THIS part of SW. I also LOVE the part centered around Luke. But anything before Luke or after Luke(as in contemporary with Luke, but + / - 50 years or so)...I'll give it a chance and a benefit of a doubt. As I will give to sequel trilogy. But the whole annual SW movie thingie...leaves me feeling unwell. Like, I've a bad feeling about this. But SWTOR is the central hub for SW story anyhow(and consequentially, the whole TOR era). So, don't feel bad. They are seperated by 3,5 THOUSAND years! Just enjoy movies for the movie factor and SWTOR for SWTOR / story factor.

 

Please, those more knowledgeable in topics I've posted here, enlighten me on aspects of the lore that enable or disprove my theories.

 

May the Force be with you

Edited by Cuiwe
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Incidently, I've long theorized that the folks managing SW these days are KOTOR fans, between the look of Kylo Ren (definate revan stylings) the mcguffin of TFA being a star chart, a fair number of KOTOR referances in the TFA visual dictionary, and now the upcoming episode of rebels.... I'd say it's pretty much confirmed.

 

if the folks running SW are fans, that bodes pretty well for the KOTOR series, at the very least I expect disney to avoid contridicting it, and chances are we'll slowly see things from it slip into canon over time

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The planet Luke is found on is Rakata Prime, incidentally, the same world the Star Forge orbited in KOTOR. It even has very similar visual features.

 

Also at least one other Old Republic reference is in new Star Wars canon. In the Star Wars Heroes app, you can unlock HK-47. Every other character in that game is from Ep I and later. Plus the fact that Swtor is still in existence bodes well.

 

From what I have been able to figure out, the only actual canon that has been rewritten is post-Jedi (thank god the silly yuuzang vong will never exist).

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We know that the Jee'dai Order was founded by different groups who were studying the Force but never met each other until the Tho Yor Coming. Tho Yors are ancient starships that carried multiple Force-studying groups to Tyhon. The first Jee'dai temples were descended Tho Yors (some of them left the planet, probably searching for more groups, while others stayed on Tython). Maybe Luke was looking for a Tho Yor?

Just rationalizing.

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The planet Luke is found on is Rakata Prime, incidentally, the same world the Star Forge orbited in KOTOR. It even has very similar visual features.

 

Also at least one other Old Republic reference is in new Star Wars canon. In the Star Wars Heroes app, you can unlock HK-47. Every other character in that game is from Ep I and later. Plus the fact that Swtor is still in existence bodes well.

 

From what I have been able to figure out, the only actual canon that has been rewritten is post-Jedi (thank god the silly yuuzang vong will never exist).

 

The planet is called Ahch-To, if I spell it correctly. You could indeed think Luke is on Rakata Prime, but this hasn't been confirmed yet, or won't be confirmed. But yeah, the world of Rakata Prime exists in canon now, as it is shown on the Galactic Map in The Visual Dictionary. Beyond that, we know nothing of this world in the new canon, so it could be.

 

AFAIK the videogames and apps are not considered canon.

 

+1 on your comment about the Yuuzang Vong :)

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We' ve known for a while now that TOR/KOTOR/TotJ was Legends canon, and as such it was not technically canon anymore after the EU reboot. I've always operated under the assumption that as long as a Legends story is not contradicted by anything canon, it can still be counted as canon personally(IE Plauegeis novel).

 

EP 7 does seem to indicate that TOR/KOTOR won't be able to be considered even "kinda canon" much longer, which is interesting because of all the nods and references, most blatantly the fact that Rakata Prime is a CANON world now thanks to the visual dictionary. Not to mention Ren's helmet is very similar to Revan's. My guess is some of the people working in TFA were fans of KOTOR/TOR and just wanted to sneak in a few references for fun.

 

I also kinda believe that at some point Disney will want to develop an Old Republic era through the new canon due to its popularity. I am praying/hoping they either recanonize certain things or make a new canon that is similar, but not exactly the same. Whether it is a standalone film, a separate trilogy, a comic, novel, game, or heck even a tv show, Disney knows, especially after TFA's box office numbers that people will eat up anything Star Wars. I think that is a bit further down the line, 3 or 4 years AT LEAST, but I still think that would be very cool. And it seems likely.

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For the most part, the Old Republic and the films are far enough away from each other that there shouldn't be any contradictions. They'd have to try in order to make a contradiction (e.g. Luke starting off Episode VIII by saying "Revan was just a myth" for no apparent reason).

 

Technically, the Old Republic is considered "Legends" now, just like the rest of the EU, but I've always held the "canon until it's not" attitude: until/unless LFL actually releases something that contradicts or overrides something from the old EU, it's still canon to me. If they say "but that didn't happen," I'll just say "then what DID happen?" and listen to the crickets chirping.

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From what I have been able to figure out, the only actual canon that has been rewritten is post-Jedi (thank god the silly yuuzang vong will never exist).

 

I completely disagree. IMHO the yuuzhan vong were maybe one of the most interesting things ever in Star Wars. Before that the EU stories were mainly: "oh no, there´s this dangerous situation, but don´t worry no one will die and everything will stay the same".

 

Also, I cannot understand how so many people are perfectly alright with so many stories being decanonized. For one, the new canon should at least be better than the old one (if you want to decanonize something, why not TPM?), and for what I´ve seen so far that´s far from happening.

 

And what if 30 years from now another company buys Star Wars and starts all over again? Will you agree with that too?

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I completely disagree. IMHO the yuuzhan vong were maybe one of the most interesting things ever in Star Wars. Before that the EU stories were mainly: "oh no, there´s this dangerous situation, but don´t worry no one will die and everything will stay the same".

 

Personally the Yuuzhan Vong really felt Star Wars-y to me. And if TFA has shown us anything, it's that "no one important will die" is certainly not true in this new canon; even moreso:

 

 

The NJO series only killed Chewie; TFA killed Han freaking Solo

 

 

Also, I cannot understand how so many people are perfectly alright with so many stories being decanonized. For one, the new canon should at least be better than the old one (if you want to decanonize something, why not TPM?), and for what I´ve seen so far that´s far from happening.

 

I was bummed about all the Old Republic stuff being decanonized. I wasn't too broken up about the post-RotJ stuff just because as soon as they announced Episode VII back in 2012, I already knew that they were going to end up rendering most if not all of the post-RotJ EU non-canon, so I was able to prepare myself. Plus, I always understood that the entire EU was based on two principles: 1) the primacy of the films. This has been true since day one; if a film contradicts something in the EU, then the EU thing is non-canon and it's up to a writer to either retcon it or leave it non-canon; and 2) that the EU's main purpose was to serve as a "placeholder" (i.e. since there's no sequel trilogy, here's a substitute) for any future film, and that if any new films were to be made, then the EU could then be "retired" since it will have fulfilled its purpose. So it wasn't a surprise to me when they had TFA override it; that's how SW has always worked. Think of the EU as Denethor, Steward of Gondor from Lord of the Rings, and think of the films as Aragorn.

 

And what if 30 years from now another company buys Star Wars and starts all over again? Will you agree with that too?

 

When Disney bought Lucasfilm, they kept all the G-Canon stuff canon because they knew that if they decanonized any of it, it would cause the entire story to not make sense. Seeing as how pretty much all material released now is "G-Canon", if Lucasfilm ever gets bought again (btw the chances of this happening are about as high as SWTOR servers becoming lag-free) they'd have to keep all the "G-Canon" material or else the entire story wouldn't make sense anymore.

Edited by Sanguiluna
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I thought Star Wars Christmas special was deemed non-canon?

Not to mention:

  • The Droids cartoon
  • The Ewoks cartoon
  • Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure
  • Ewoks: The Battle for Endor

:p

 

I have no idea whether the Clone Wars micro-series is Canon (the 5ish-minutes-long traditional animation shorts, I know the 30-minute episode CGI series is Canon).

Edited by DarthDymond
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what star wars holiday special? I don't recall a star wars holiday special, in fact I'm certin there was no Star Wars holiday special. :)

 

Well, then George Lucas did a fine job. :p

 

The Holiday Special is a film from 1978 about our heroes, who want to celebrate Life Day on Kashyyyk. Between the parts of the film there are little animationfilms and music parts, one in which Boba Fett is introduced for the first time, by the way. These parts are really comical and crazy. From Wookieepedia: "Star Wars creator George Lucas's involvement in the special's production was limited, and he was unhappy with the final product." (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Holiday_Special)

 

The Holiday Special is seen as one of the worst products of Star Wars ever. Rumor has it that George Lucas wants to burn every copy existing. That's why the Holiday Special has never been produced on DVD or video.

Edited by PSVEindhoven
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Well, then George Lucas did a fine job. :p

 

The Holiday Special is a film from 1978 about our heroes, who want to celebrate Life Day on Kashyyyk. Between the parts of the film there are little animationfilms and music parts, one in which Boba Fett is introduced for the first time, by the way. These parts are really comical and crazy. From Wookieepedia: "Star Wars creator George Lucas's involvement in the special's production was limited, and he was unhappy with the final product." (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Holiday_Special)

 

The Holiday Special is seen as one of the worst products of Star Wars ever. Rumor has it that George Lucas wants to burn every copy existing. That's why the Holiday Special has never been produced on DVD or video.

 

heh yeah I know what it is. I was more making a joke about pretending it doesn't exist :)

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