Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

a thread to debate the merits of slicing changes (post here, not there)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
a thread to debate the merits of slicing changes (post here, not there)
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

DakhathKilrathi's Avatar


DakhathKilrathi
03.26.2021 , 01:23 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
2 months later not a word... This is the Swtor I remember.
i mean strike changes took them over two years to implement after they said they wanted feedback so yeah it will be a while

Edit as of 2021/04/26: I stand corrected and I couldn't be happier about it.

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
04.29.2021 , 03:19 PM | #42
Sorry guys but the nerf is just not enough. In my petition I stated the requirement here was to stop someone deciding to ruin your day by completely disabling your ship. The goal, had to be to give the person being sliced a fighting chance. But with your systems, missile break and engine power drained, you cannot DO anything. There is no fighting chance because your buttons are all gone. Now, you all know my skill levels, I make no claim on being the best here, but I'm not a slouch either. Today I had one of those matches, where because I am a well known threat, a competent slicer makes it his goal to completely shut me down. It gets to the point where you cannot engage anyone else, you have to keep your eye on him all the time, because you know what is coming. Sure, I was on a bad team, but I've been on thousands of bad teams (no exaggeration) and I can pull something out of the bag, or at least walk away with a positive KDR, against any other kind of focus. But not against this. The person in question is using Lockdown Co-pilot, which when combined with slicing is a 70 point engine drain. This is what the nerf was meant to stop, and in practical terms, it has done next to nothing. He would not have killed me less or more times if it had never been nerfed. Can we do a proper nerf on it now? Please? Because my motivation to keep playing this game is dwindling more and more when my name makes people want to disable my ship by pressing 1 and 3 because they know if they don't disable my ship I am a threat. That is not fun. This game needs to keep its skilled pilots, and I am getting closer and closer to being another person who quits because of slicing.

vidoe of said match - https://youtu.be/uIVcSrJbcTU
-Luc Nodaro

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
04.29.2021 , 08:31 PM | #43
Do you need Remote Slicing nerfed, or do you need Lockdown and Damage Overcharge nerfed? Hard to tell from that video.

Aside from the CD increase that I think it needs, I can see a case there for an additional nerf to the engine drain, but I have mixed feelings about it.

Is a combo with a niche crew skill worth nerfing over? What is RS used for before the T5 upgrades if the drain goes away completely or becomes insignificant (and does that even matter given how easy it is to get requisition)? What about people who like using it for the drain? Is it really that much worse than the Ion Railgun?

It still feels a bit too strong to me in terms of rate of use, but I'm less sure on strength of effect. It's ballpark similar to other control components, giving up multi-target effects for not needing to hit its target. To my use case the drain is really just a placeholder, and I could care less if it disappeared. Not sure if people using it primarily for the drain would agree with that though. I sort of feel the same way about the system disable.

If you had to choose between the system disable and the drain, which would you choose? As an attacker using RS or as a defender hit by RS.

Personally I think maybe the drain is stronger than the system disable overall. I guess I'd also say that in terms of overall balance that the T5 options are strong enough that I'd be o.k. with losing the engine drain completely. Maybe even the system disable too. Not sure what I'd replace them with though. What would you think about copying over a weaker version of the Railgun regen debuff? Say 30% reduced engine regen or something like that replacing both the drain and the system disable?
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

Twitch

Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.29.2021 , 08:34 PM | #44
I suspect it is a good nerf and adequate. You have now shifted the goalposts to something about no one being able to harass you with a full CC ship, and now lockdown has entered the conversation. Lockdown + slicing was absolutely brutal before, now you have 30 points of engine you didn't before. This nerf punished lockdown+slicing and slicer's loop+slicing, as it should have. But now you are coming up with builds that still offer CC and complaining that those exist too.

At the end of the day, CC is good for this game, and this was a good nerf. If someone decides to take everything that they can and turn it into CC, that CC should be effective and frustrating to play against.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
04.30.2021 , 04:09 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
I suspect it is a good nerf and adequate. You have now shifted the goalposts to something about no one being able to harass you with a full CC ship, and now lockdown has entered the conversation. Lockdown + slicing was absolutely brutal before, now you have 30 points of engine you didn't before. This nerf punished lockdown+slicing and slicer's loop+slicing, as it should have. But now you are coming up with builds that still offer CC and complaining that those exist too.

At the end of the day, CC is good for this game, and this was a good nerf. If someone decides to take everything that they can and turn it into CC, that CC should be effective and frustrating to play against.
Check my original comments on the petition, and in here. Lockdown combining with Slicing was always part of the discussion. This is why I advocated for the engine drain being removed altogether; because with any amount of engine drain removed more people would start using Lockdown to compensate. I have not shifted the goal posts at all. The goal, again stated in the petition at the start, was that someone should not be able to press 1 and 3 and completely disable your ship. I fundamentally disagree with the concept of a hard CC in GSF, it does not work in the same manner as stuns in the ground game. Its far more devastating and you do not have a stun break in GSF. So no, I do not believe that CC is good for this game at all. The consensus of the comments in this thread and the success of the petition pretty much show that most regulars agree with me. At least those who cared enough one way or the other to try to influence the outcome.

Had said player in that video used any other ship to try to focus me, I could've handled it a lot better. And in that respect, to answer Ramalina's comments, yes I feel it is worse than Ion rail gun. Its easy to stand there and say CC is good for this game, but no one who ever queued solo, landed on a bad team, and got hard focused by a slicer because of their name, ever walked away from that match and said "I'm so glad we have an unbreakable CC ability in this game." The only people who like it, are people who like to use it. Period. I know Drakolich advocated several times when he coached me that you need a CC ability for newer players to feel they are contributing. I have arrived at a point where I completely disagree with that. We already have Protons, Gunships, and bombers for that.The game should force you to learn skill if you want to take down an Ace, not rely on a totally skill-less CC ability.
-Luc Nodaro

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
04.30.2021 , 11:26 AM | #46
So I have a request: If you're a good pilot, have Remote Slicing mastered, are flying on Star Forge over the next three days probably between 7 and 10 pm Eastern Daylight Savings Time, and see any of the following names in a match,
please do your best to slice the snot out of them:

Ramalina
Cladonia
Zhe Lian
Zhe Luong
Invixia
Hinaria
Malarania
Tonoko
Zhou Shen
Liang Hua
Rama-Imp

Sorting out how much of the example in the video was RS, Lockdown, Damage Overcharge, incautious flying, and A.Z. just being a better pilot on a better team is hard to do. I need to be on the receiving end to really get a handle on how it feels after the nerf in different ships and builds.

Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
Lockdown + slicing was absolutely brutal before, now you have 30 points of engine you didn't before.
That's a very conditional statement. You'd need to have 100 points or more in your engine pool when hit with both abilities to have 30 more points. You need at least 71 points in the tank to have ANY more engine points, and depending on Thruster choice it looked like Ttoilleekul was usually at 50-60 or less when hit. So overall it's still a very brutal drain if chained with Lockdown. Sort of like flying a Starguard against a Ion-using gunship nest in the old days, in theory you might have some engine power, in practice not so much unless you practice a lot, and build your flying style around countering the drain.

On the other hand, the Imperium pilot was very good. They were scooping up all the DO's the instant they appeared, getting point blank guns kills as Ttoilleekul was maneuvering around cover, and generally looking like an old school battlescout pilot. It didn't even look like the Imperium was running EMP missile with engine lockout, which is really what the maximum trolling build would look like to me.

I'm also not sure I feel like Lockdown is really the best possible crew ability for a Remote Slicing build. Without Repair Probes or Hydrospanner the T3F becomes a lot easier to kill. I was also tinkering a bit with a Proton-Slicing build running Bypass, and the shield piercing helped guns finish off targets very fast. It felt like the best burst damage build of the variations I tried.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

Twitch

Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.30.2021 , 01:42 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Ttoilleekul View Post
The consensus of the comments in this thread and the success of the petition pretty much show that most regulars agree with me.
I'm here disagreeing with you. "Regulars"? I've played this game way more than you ever will, does that count?
You don't have a consensus. You have you, complaining about being sliced. Maybe some other whiners who don't like CC.

Prior to the nerf, there really was a consensus about slicing, and I know that because no one I talked to didn't want slicing nerfed (including me). Now, we have a good nerf. Slicing was counterable before, but it required too much squirreliness- you had to maintain nearly a full tank at all times. With 30 less engine drain, slicing is much easier to deal with.

Anyway, get crowd controlled and blow up mad. Or learn to play around it, which is basically what you had to do before, except a lot less of it.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
05.09.2021 , 03:23 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
I'm here disagreeing with you. "Regulars"? I've played this game way more than you ever will, does that count?
You don't have a consensus. You have you, complaining about being sliced. Maybe some other whiners who don't like CC.

Prior to the nerf, there really was a consensus about slicing, and I know that because no one I talked to didn't want slicing nerfed (including me). Now, we have a good nerf. Slicing was counterable before, but it required too much squirreliness- you had to maintain nearly a full tank at all times. With 30 less engine drain, slicing is much easier to deal with.

Anyway, get crowd controlled and blow up mad. Or learn to play around it, which is basically what you had to do before, except a lot less of it.
Have you played GSF a lot more than me? Let's see. I have been at it 2.5 years since 5.10 dropped. Sure, you've been at it since day one? So you have probably almost triple my time in years. But in that time I have played 11.5k games. How many games have you played? The vast majority of my games were solo. How many of yours were solo? Your perspective is skewed because you flew almost exclusively in one of the best premades there ever was for how many years?, and you're adversely opposed to flying solo. I'd wager my solo experience trumps yours at this point. So, at this point, my input is worth every bit as much as yours. At some point Verain you have to accept that one time newbie you didn't like has risen to match your level and experience.

Also your first two sentences don't mesh. You can't on the one hand say that I didn't have consensus, but then on the other hand say that prior to 6.3 there was consensus on a nerf needing to happen.
-Luc Nodaro

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
05.09.2021 , 03:52 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Sorting out how much of the example in the video was RS, Lockdown, Damage Overcharge, incautious flying, and A.Z. just being a better pilot on a better team is hard to do. I need to be on the receiving end to really get a handle on how it feels after the nerf in different ships and builds.
So now that a bit more time has passed I can bring more to the table on this one. I still get sliced. People still switch to slicing because they are angry with me. I am Luc Nodaro after all. I one-shot people with DO slugs, I blast them with 2 BLC crits from <1000m, and I piledrive them. These things will always get people angry enough to slice me. That is never going to change. The point I am making is I don't feel like I am being sliced any less than I was pre 6.3.

In a general sense slicing is easier to deal with. The vast majority of those slicers coming after me have always been bad players. The threat was their slice, not them. Slicing when used by one of these noobs, and when not combined with Lockdown (which accounts for by far most slices) is much easier to deal with. It leaves you with enough engines to break for Line of sight. Excluding the video with AZ, I have only died to slicing one other time since 6.3, and I was admittedly very open and exposed, over reaching trying to win a tight game carrying a bunch of feeders. So I can accept that. No issue there. Every other time I have been sliced I have been able to LoS, evade and find safety, or even beat the slicer. So the nerf is working.

As for the game against AZ that I linked... you said its hard to tell what is the biggest factor there. So let me put it this way. AZ is a very good pilot, probably Ace level, (haven't seen him play anything but slice - so can't say) but for sure he is very good in the T3F. Lets say all other factors were the same. So he had the better team, he had center map control and hence DO control, and he was still using lockdown, but, lets say he wasn't slicing. It would've been much easier to deal with. If he plays a GS, you play GS and you play shadow games with each other. If he plays a Strike you play Strike and use your mobility to evade him or even get DOs yourself. Its the slice factor that is the game changer. That is the reason I went negative KDR. I can handle a bad team with an Ace on the other side. Not saying I will win. Just saying I can fly defensively and take my opportunities for kills. What I can't handle is all those factors and slicing, and I defy anyone to think they can. I've witnessed first hand Neutrinos and Invis pressured so badly into negative KDRs even without slicing being a factor. And those two are as good as it gets. So factor in slicing along with all the other pressures that come with facing an Ace while being on a terrible team, and you cannot do anything. Verain will argue you can. but he plays elusively in a premade and won't go solo to pove his point. So. yeah...

So in conclusion I am happy that the slicing nerf is working and it's not so easy for a noob to go "anti-Ace" mode on you. But I still fundamentally disagree with the concept that by the press of two buttons someone can entirely disable your ship. I fundamentally disagree with the fact that slicing can be combined with Lockdown and still has such devastating effect. Which is why I advocated for all the engine drain to be removed. Do you nerf slicing more? Do you nerf Lockdown? I don't I think I can say it any better than Despon's well documented thoughts on the matter, which is essentially that hard CC is a bad game design, and there is no way to fix that. You either like hard CC abilities that have no direct counter component, or you don't.
-Luc Nodaro