"Power creep" can be addressed without removing powers. Bear in mind, two of the hardest hit classes in all of this have gotten two powers each (force clarity and blade blitz) in the last seven+ years. BW can rewrite utilities without removing core abilities that have been in the game since day 1. A level 50 guardian or sentinel in 2012 had more buttons and more utility than level 80 guardians and sentinels on the PTS now. That's not addressing "power creep", that's removing basic functionality - from classes that are not now considered "too functional" by most endgame pvpers and raiders. BW still hasn't really explained why they're doing it or what they're hoping to accomplish. I've heard "too many buttons, not modern" and "we need to reset so balancing is easier and so we can add things to classes in the future" but neither of those really tracks with what they've done. Edited October 12, 2021 by WaywardOne

"NGE Announcement (November 2, 2005):

 

Letter to the Community

 

Greetings Star Wars Galaxies Players, Fans, and Other Denizens of the Galaxy:

 

My name is Julio Torres and I am the Producer on Star Wars Galaxies for LucasArts. We wanted you, the great members of the Galaxies community, to be the first to hear some exciting news about the current and future plans for Star Wars Galaxies!

 

Over the past year we have been working hard to respond to feedback we have gotten from players, fans, focus groups, and other research. This feedback has ultimately centered on one key area: the game does not feel like a heroic Star Wars experience. Currently, the early game has a steep learning curve and there is no clearly defined path of advancement or adventure. Many of our fans who bought the game did not see enough Star Wars style action early-on and ultimately left our world. It is our goal to change this and improve the experience for all players.

 

We are introducing a series of game enhancements to Star Wars Galaxies this month that include both significant enhancements to the live game as well as a completely redesigned experience for new players. The primary areas of focus include combat and profession and character development. The combat depicted in the Star Wars films, fiction, and canon that we have all come to know and love is fast-paced, action-packed, and visually intense. In order to stay true to the Star Wars fiction as well as to make the combat system more engaging, we have shifted the turn-based paradigm towards a much more engaging fast-action combat system where you control every move! After receiving feedback from members of the community, conducting extensive focus tests, and evaluating the combat systems of other games in the genre, we are confident this new fast-action combat truly delivers what players, fans, and gamers have come to expect from a Star Wars experience.

 

As mentioned earlier, combat is not the only area where we decided to focus our improvement efforts. We have also improved and brought more clarity to the profession and character development system..."

 

This brought back some terrible memories 😂😂😭😭

 

I can't comment on wow because I've never played, but in regards to your point about SWG the fact that they changed the combat system isn't exactly the reason the game died.

 

First off SWG was an incredibly complex mmo, and Jedi wasn't a starter class. It took months and months of grinding to unlock your force sensitive character slot (to be a jedi toon). When they talk about improved profession and character development they are talking about how they made Jedi a starting class. So you could imagine the betrayal felt by the players who'd been working since launch of the game for Jedi, or had already completed the insane grind, to then just hand out the class to new players immediately. There is a certain satisfaction you get from your hard work in an mmo and that was rendered useless by this move, it definitely alienated the hard-core player base.

 

As far as the combat upgrade goes, I hated it as someone who lived through it. Thats only because I was hard headed tho. I loved the game as it was, so I wasn't open minded to the changes. Those changes were much better and a lot closer to the combat you see in swtor today. If you go back and look at the combat in SWG pre cu, it's a **** show lol, the weakest aspect of that game by far.

 

I'm in agreement on your overall point tho. I do think fundamentally changing the way classes play is going to upset a lot of ppl. There's a skill gap in this game, and as a pvper you see it a lot. I feel a lot of the imbalanced aspects of the game are really down to learning to play the game properly. Bioware has created a lot of disparity in the classes as well by the set bonuses and tacticals they added. Pruning abilities isn't the answer. The answer for me would be for bioware to come up with actual content instead of just making every xpac about a gear grind or changing your rotation 😑😑 (and this is coming from someone who plays a class that greatly benefited from their laziness in 6.0)

 

I'm not going to be stubborn like I was with SWG tho, I'll give it a shot but if it's as bad as I think it is gonna be, yeah I'll be unsubbing as well.

I am still flabberghasted how people have the gall to argue "Less is better"

 

Yes, the gal for people to argue for what they enjoy. It's completely out there, really...

Yes, the gal for people to argue for what they enjoy. It's completely out there, really...

 

Take a step back for a moment and really mull over that sentence in your head. I want you to understand something that is fundamentally simple, yet crucial in this topic -

If people want less hotkeys, they can use less at their leisure and ignore abilities that are niche.

If people want to use everything, they can use everything.

 

Removing abilities completely removes one of these choices, whereas keeping it as is allows both options.

I agree with the original poster of this thread. I don't plan to sub to 7.0 in it's current iteration.

I have to agree with the first 2 posts. I don't know if I will be continuing to sub at this point.

Basically i try all specs i usually play , and my first feeling was i dont wanna pay for this . After i check for 2nd and 3 time was same conclusion even worse . 7.0 Its give to players "nothing " . All i saw its you have to choose beetween skills you enjoy in this moment . Some patches ago we suffer this hability prunning and in some way was more or less aceptable ,that no means i miss some skills . I know devs dont care to much about our feedback , but if they do just let skills system like its atm (6.xx) ,give us 2 new skills like you do in other patches and will be ok . Edited November 9, 2021 by imperfecttoy

I can see both sides of the argument and the two sides are coming from completely different places. One side is one that wants the days of old back when Operations and PvP were fun and challenging. The other side are the players who can care less about Ops and PvP and are only here for the stories. If you're running stories, you clearly don't need every ability a class has to advance through the game. If you do Ops/PvP, you tend to need more of your abilities.

 

However, every class has a cookie cutter build. As soon as class changes are released with an expansion/update, new and old players start hitting up google looking for the best DPS/Tank/Healer class, which leads to some classes being over used and others being under used. Then once they have the best class, they want to know what the best gear is for that class. Then they start to get their hopes dashed when they learn that the gear is either locked behind FPs/OPs/PvP or its incredibly overpriced on the GTN. Next they look for the build tree. Which utilities/talents do they need to be able to do what they want to do in the game. Some classes are more complex than others. Currently the DoT classes have some of the most complex rotations in the game, but they are also some of the most rewarding play styles.

 

So what is the correct answer? Truthfully, there isn't one. No matter what, some group is going to get ticked off. Want to know why Bioware makes these sweeping changes? Because of cookie cutter builds. It's one of the reasons why Blizzard is always jacking with the abilities, trying to make abilities that are unused more useful, while also trying to make the most used abilities still functional, while nerfing them down to force the players to use the less used abilities.

 

For those saying the game is going to loose x amount of players from the game.....you don't know that. You don't even know really how many people play the game. You have no metrics to guide you into believing that you are correct. Have there been past examples, yeap. One poster used SWG as an example. That was 10 years ago. The MMO industry has seen a huge shift since then. If everyone is "dumbing" down their games in the genre, then clearly the industry sees something that we do not. Listen, I'm all for a hardcore game that locks the babies, kiddies, and whiners behind a large and complex system of abilities, story, raids, dungeons, and crafting. Sadly though, unless we make it ourselves, I think that everyone is going to find that those days are pretty much behind us. We live in a world where people now expect to get the most amount of reward for the least amount of work and we have people who do that most amount of work being told they are fools for working so hard for so little reward. In another few big updates or so, who knows, maybe you'll get to log in and just get greeted with a "Congratulations! You've done it! You have beat the game!" and you want have had to play a single minute of it. Welcome to the land of instant gratification.

I can see both sides of the argument and the two sides are coming from completely different places. One side is one that wants the days of old back when Operations and PvP were fun and challenging. The other side are the players who can care less about Ops and PvP and are only here for the stories. If you're running stories, you clearly don't need every ability a class has to advance through the game. If you do Ops/PvP, you tend to need more of your abilities.

 

However, every class has a cookie cutter build. As soon as class changes are released with an expansion/update, new and old players start hitting up google looking for the best DPS/Tank/Healer class, which leads to some classes being over used and others being under used. Then once they have the best class, they want to know what the best gear is for that class. Then they start to get their hopes dashed when they learn that the gear is either locked behind FPs/OPs/PvP or its incredibly overpriced on the GTN. Next they look for the build tree. Which utilities/talents do they need to be able to do what they want to do in the game. Some classes are more complex than others. Currently the DoT classes have some of the most complex rotations in the game, but they are also some of the most rewarding play styles.

 

So what is the correct answer? Truthfully, there isn't one. No matter what, some group is going to get ticked off. Want to know why Bioware makes these sweeping changes? Because of cookie cutter builds. It's one of the reasons why Blizzard is always jacking with the abilities, trying to make abilities that are unused more useful, while also trying to make the most used abilities still functional, while nerfing them down to force the players to use the less used abilities.

 

For those saying the game is going to loose x amount of players from the game.....you don't know that. You don't even know really how many people play the game. You have no metrics to guide you into believing that you are correct. Have there been past examples, yeap. One poster used SWG as an example. That was 10 years ago. The MMO industry has seen a huge shift since then. If everyone is "dumbing" down their games in the genre, then clearly the industry sees something that we do not. Listen, I'm all for a hardcore game that locks the babies, kiddies, and whiners behind a large and complex system of abilities, story, raids, dungeons, and crafting. Sadly though, unless we make it ourselves, I think that everyone is going to find that those days are pretty much behind us. We live in a world where people now expect to get the most amount of reward for the least amount of work and we have people who do that most amount of work being told they are fools for working so hard for so little reward. In another few big updates or so, who knows, maybe you'll get to log in and just get greeted with a "Congratulations! You've done it! You have beat the game!" and you want have had to play a single minute of it. Welcome to the land of instant gratification.

correct from a ingame point of view-but- we pay for a product we like, if they change the product to a product we don't want to play and pay anymore, that is bad game design and even worse buissenes.and we can safely say at this point that a lot of current players aren't willing to pay for this mess. that count grows by each day bioware refuses to interact with the community regarding concerns about these changes.

..

For those saying the game is going to loose x amount of players from the game.....you don't know that. You don't even know really how many people play the game. You have no metrics to guide you into believing that you are correct. Have there been past examples, yeap. One poster used SWG as an example. That was 10 years ago. The MMO industry has seen a huge shift since then. If everyone is "dumbing" down their games in the genre, then clearly the industry sees something that we do not. Listen, I'm all for a hardcore game that locks the babies, kiddies, and whiners behind a large and complex system of abilities, story, raids, dungeons, and crafting. Sadly though, unless we make it ourselves, I think that everyone is going to find that those days are pretty much behind us. We live in a world where people now expect to get the most amount of reward for the least amount of work and we have people who do that most amount of work being told they are fools for working so hard for so little reward. In another few big updates or so, who knows, maybe you'll get to log in and just get greeted with a "Congratulations! You've done it! You have beat the game!" and you want have had to play a single minute of it. Welcome to the land of instant gratification.

 

Both Wow and SWG lost subs doing what swtor is doing now. Who else is/has dumbed down their game? Can you give an example of an old game that has done something similar to what SWTOR is doing (arbitrary and significant nerfing of most classes) and then gained or even maintained subs? I cannot. Final Fantasy is an example of an older game that has gotten more popular over time. It has not dumbed itself down and has interfaces that are just as "busy" as swtor's if not moreso. Story-only players love that game.

Edited November 9, 2021 by WaywardOne

All I see is accommodating the potential (in either a CEO's fiction or bloated financial estimates) people who have yet to play this game, not those who are actually currently playing it. paying it, etc.

neither for the beginners who have started the game today, or the people who have been here since the beta.

Prove me wrong on this,

 

The UI is condensed, it seems to be simplified and contracted to accommodate a console release, such as current Xbox or PS5 (which would go well with the upcoming KOTOR reprint, I mean reboot, i mean, remolest, remaster, something something)

Starwars due to Disney, and lets be honest here, due to EA (Battlefront) has been in a rocky place, and do you truly expect the new generation of sugar-hopped, attention starved, tik-tokker-instagram posting fortnite fiddling self-absorbed little snots to pay you for a game from 2009 because you gave it a new lick of paint and removed most of the buttons before they can get tired from pressing them?

I hope not. because they'll be done with you before the end of the week.

as for following in World Of Whorecraft's footsteps, don't. just don't.

the more I think about it; I think these changes are to support playing the game on steam deck. but a general console release could be in the cards as well.

Agreed

 

The new system is complete NGE style garbage.

The combat is dated, and all they can think to do is dumb it down. Forcing us to choose between two halves of a class that we used to enjoy in it's entirety isn't build diversity, it's watering down our bitter black coffee when all we wanted was some damn sugar. I would've been down for this plan if it actually felt like a fresh start, if the combat was refined and updated. Instead it feels like playing the game with half of my hotbars artificially disabled. I have 10 fingers, over 100 keys on my keyboard, 20 keys on my mouse, and a wrinkly brain...I don't need less abilities, I need fluid combat mechanics with what we already have.

 

If bioware ****s this up, itll be the last dollar from me EA ever sees again.

correct from a ingame point of view-but- we pay for a product we like, if they change the product to a product we don't want to play and pay anymore, that is bad game design and even worse buissenes.and we can safely say at this point that a lot of current players aren't willing to pay for this mess. that count grows by each day bioware refuses to interact with the community regarding concerns about these changes.

 

If Bioware changes the product to a product that people don't like, doesn't make it bad game design just because you disagree with it. But I point you to the TOS for TOR:

 

6. Updates to the Service; Notices.

 

Terms of Service for new TOR Services and important changes to existing services will be posted at the TOR site. You agree to check here periodically for new information and terms that govern your use of TOR Services. BioWare and LucasArts reserve the right to modify the Terms of Service at any time. Revisions to terms affecting existing TOR Services shall be effective thirty (30) days after posting the new Terms of Service. Terms for new TOR Services are effective immediately. If you do not agree to the new terms, or to any of the terms in this Terms of Service, your only remedy is to not use TOR Services and to cancel your Account or applicable subscriptions.

 

IMPORTANT: BIOWARE MAY FIND IT NECESSARY TO MAKE CHANGES TO, OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS TO BALANCE GAME PLAY AND USAGE OF TOR SERVICES. THESE CHANGES OR "RESETS" MAY AFFECT CHARACTERS OR GAMES OR GROUPS UNDER YOUR CONTROL AND MAY CAUSE YOU SETBACKS WITHIN THE RELEVANT GAME WORLD. BIOWARE RESERVES THE RIGHT TO MAKE THESE CHANGES AND IS NOT LIABLE TO YOU FOR THESE CHANGES.

 

So, clearly Bioware and Lucas Arts are aware that changes that they make may cause some players to rethink subscribing or even playing TOR. They even tell you directly that your only remedy for not liking their changes is to cancel your account or subscription. The bottom line is that it is their game to do what they want with. The world, the stories, and everything else is theirs. We as individuals may not agree with the changes, and I agree with that statement, but we as a community certainly do not agree that the changes are bad.

 

You also said arbitrary changes, what's arbitrary about them? I may have to go back and read some of the dev blogs, but as far as I know, they've given reasons for these changes. So then they can't be arbitrary, can they?

 

Yes, Bioware should interact more with the community, I completely agree. Absolutely no doubt about it. However, I also do not think that these forums represent a sizable share of the community. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that these forums probably represent less than half of all SWTOR players. Additionally, I'm also willing to bet that fewer than half of all subscribers have actually logged on to the PTS to see the changes for themselves.

 

Those statements sound ridiculous don't they? Statistically speaking I'm probably right, but I can't possibly back that statement up, I have zero data to backup the claims of who is or isn't on the forums or playing the PTS. But if your points about the number of disgruntled players is growing exponentially by the day, then I don't think that Bioware needs to worry about disgruntled players, because my point that less than half of player base has played the PTS or even uses the forums, is just as valid as your claims about disgruntled players being so disgruntled.

 

I'm not saying you or other players don't have valid arguments about changes that effect your personal game play. But those changes do not effect the entire playerbase equally or to the extent or dissatisfaction that some people claim. It seems to me that if you want Bioware to pay more attention, then perhaps more constructive criticism and less doom and gloom and "if you release these changes I'm quitting, you've loss my money", would be more helpful.

 

These types of statements do not sway big business. Just ask Microsoft!

Both Wow and SWG lost subs doing what swtor is doing now. Who else is/has dumbed down their game? Can you give an example of an old game that has done something similar to what SWTOR is doing (arbitrary and significant nerfing of most classes) and then gained or even maintained subs? I cannot. Final Fantasy is an example of an older game that has gotten more popular over time. It has not dumbed itself down and has interfaces that are just as "busy" as swtor's if not moreso. Story-only players love that game.

 

First off, you can't even use WoW as an example. They arguably have the largest player base in the MMO genre, them losing 10,000 players is a drop in the bucket and if they were worried about their player base, they wouldn't be one of the few holdouts in the F2P market.

 

As for SWG, yeah I was there too. I was there from beta until the debacle with Trials of Obi Wan. I even got my money from the expansion and I cancelled my account and I never even played the NGE on the live servers. I played it on test and decided I hated it. I never made a single forum post about. I never screamed about them losing my money. It was their game to do with that they wanted. (Admittedly, I did scream about the Jedi Revamp and Combat Changes though.)

 

Final Fantasy is also a MMO that, while popular, isn't the end all be all to MMOs. It also isn't the most popular MMO.

 

As for who else has dumbed down their game....Eve Online has. The entry point to Eve Online is considerably easier today then it was just five years ago. Five years ago it was easier than it was 5 years before that and those changes actually brought in more players and the player base grew from those changes and also because it introduced a F2P component and they introduced a microtransaction store. All things that was pretty unpopular to long time veteran players of the game. Some of which who left the game, some said they would and didn't, and some did but returned.

 

Attrition rates in MMOs are predictable and mostly volatile based off what the developer is known for. Bioware is known for great stories, always have been, but they have arguably yet to produce a great story since the end of the original class stories. IMO, the Ilum content was the beginning of what I consider some of the laziest storytelling I have seen in this game. Bioware isn't the only developer that is guilty of it, Cryptic is the same way with STO. They can't be bothered with creating content that is individual and unique to the the class and faction that you play. Instead, with Ilum, every Pub players gets the same story and every Imp gets the same story. RotHC, same thing, Shadow of Revan, same thing. Then it got worse with the Knights series, now EVERYONE has the same story.

 

I'll tell you the same thing that I said above. I don't think that your viewpoint on these changes are invalid or somehow not right, but these changes clearly don't effect every player negatively. In fact, these changes don't bother me at all, I can adjust to them. What does bother me is that Bioware has still yet to produce a truly great story (IMO) for the last eight years.

First off, you can't even use WoW as an example. They arguably have the largest player base in the MMO genre, them losing 10,000 players is a drop in the bucket and if they were worried about their player base, they wouldn't be one of the few holdouts in the F2P market.

 

As for SWG, yeah I was there too. I was there from beta until the debacle with Trials of Obi Wan. I even got my money from the expansion and I cancelled my account and I never even played the NGE on the live servers. I played it on test and decided I hated it. I never made a single forum post about. I never screamed about them losing my money. It was their game to do with that they wanted. (Admittedly, I did scream about the Jedi Revamp and Combat Changes though.)

 

Final Fantasy is also a MMO that, while popular, isn't the end all be all to MMOs. It also isn't the most popular MMO.

 

As for who else has dumbed down their game....Eve Online has. The entry point to Eve Online is considerably easier today then it was just five years ago. Five years ago it was easier than it was 5 years before that and those changes actually brought in more players and the player base grew from those changes and also because it introduced a F2P component and they introduced a microtransaction store. All things that was pretty unpopular to long time veteran players of the game. Some of which who left the game, some said they would and didn't, and some did but returned.

 

Attrition rates in MMOs are predictable and mostly volatile based off what the developer is known for. Bioware is known for great stories, always have been, but they have arguably yet to produce a great story since the end of the original class stories. IMO, the Ilum content was the beginning of what I consider some of the laziest storytelling I have seen in this game. Bioware isn't the only developer that is guilty of it, Cryptic is the same way with STO. They can't be bothered with creating content that is individual and unique to the the class and faction that you play. Instead, with Ilum, every Pub players gets the same story and every Imp gets the same story. RotHC, same thing, Shadow of Revan, same thing. Then it got worse with the Knights series, now EVERYONE has the same story.

 

I'll tell you the same thing that I said above. I don't think that your viewpoint on these changes are invalid or somehow not right, but these changes clearly don't effect every player negatively. In fact, these changes don't bother me at all, I can adjust to them. What does bother me is that Bioware has still yet to produce a truly great story (IMO) for the last eight years.

 

Can't use Wow as an example? LOL! I'm not talking about 10k subs that left. Interestingly, and I'm sure there's no direct correlation, but Wow was -most- popular when it had the most buttons to manage. Even with today's gamers, Wow classic was doing ok before the scandals, with several million active players, and classic has far more buttons to manage than swtor, especially with macros.

 

Eve was 1-2 years old when it mixed things up. That was the right time to rewrite an excel sheet processor game. It was not an "old game" ("Can you give an example of an old game..."). They didn't have a population of players that had been playing their game for many years. And to be clear, SWTOR isn't really rewriting anything or significantly changing combat or how the game works, they are just nerfing classes/utilities in the name of "removing buttons". I'm not familiar enough with Eve's update but making a game less arcane, less confusing, isn't the same as removing functionality - but maybe they did that too, idk. Whatever the case, when the game is relatively new is the right time. For the 10-year anniversary with a skeletal crew on staff and a minimal budget? Not the right time.

Can't use Wow as an example? LOL! I'm not talking about 10k subs that left. Interestingly, and I'm sure there's no direct correlation, but Wow was -most- popular when it had the most buttons to manage. Even with today's gamers, Wow classic was doing ok before the scandals, with several million active players, and classic has far more buttons to manage than swtor, especially with macros.

 

Eve was 1-2 years old when it mixed things up. That was the right time to rewrite an excel sheet processor game. It was not an "old game" ("Can you give an example of an old game..."). They didn't have a population of players that had been playing their game for many years. And to be clear, SWTOR isn't really rewriting anything or significantly changing combat or how the game works, they are just nerfing classes/utilities in the name of "removing buttons". I'm not familiar enough with Eve's update but making a game less arcane, less confusing, isn't the same as removing functionality - but maybe they did that too, idk. Whatever the case, when the game is relatively new is the right time. For the 10-year anniversary with a skeletal crew on staff and a minimal budget? Not the right time.

 

Eve Online was 13 years old when they made their first big New Player Experience push. SWTOR was just a 3 year old baby when EO was 13 years old. I'm not saying WoW was/is more complex or not. I'm saying that everyone is just b***ching about the changes and yelling about canceling accounts and what not. Bioware doesn't care if you cancel. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be frustrated or that they don't have a reason to be upset or that they shouldn't voice their concerns. I am saying that there is a whole lot less constructive criticism concerning these changes than there is a willingness by players or devs to intellectually talk to one another about these changes to address the concerns of both players and devs. Yelling, "I'm canceling my sub because of x,y,z" doesn't fix the concerns of the players.

Eve Online was 13 years old when they made their first big New Player Experience push. SWTOR was just a 3 year old baby when EO was 13 years old. I'm not saying WoW was/is more complex or not. I'm saying that everyone is just b***ching about the changes and yelling about canceling accounts and what not. Bioware doesn't care if you cancel. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be frustrated or that they don't have a reason to be upset or that they shouldn't voice their concerns. I am saying that there is a whole lot less constructive criticism concerning these changes than there is a willingness by players or devs to intellectually talk to one another about these changes to address the concerns of both players and devs. Yelling, "I'm canceling my sub because of x,y,z" doesn't fix the concerns of the players.

 

 

I agree with you on this not working out in either the customer or the developer's case, we shouldn't have to both be angry at eachother or convinced the other group is only doing things or giving their opinion out of spite, however these are the game and developer's forums, and outside of a select few people whom apparently they are in contact with the devs don't seem to really want to speak with any of us, as a player i feel stonewalled, as a customer i feel being left behind in favour for a potential new demographic of people that Bioware/EA wants to obtain, that might not even be there at all. to the detriment of the game and its players.... SWTOR isn't the best MMO, but it isn't the worst either, but i think that despite it not fulfilling everyone's cravings for more challenges, more difficulties, even content or variety we had a nice and decent, stable foundation in 6.0 that is about to be wholesale revamped, the timeframe of it seems rushed with an impossible pressure to get this right, and to get it right the first time or else, i wouldn't want to work under that pressure, it seems like hell. but the more i look at this i believe the communcation is just not there to set this right, or if people even want that anymore.

im sure that the customers come and go, and players can leave at anytime. yes, but ask them wether they want to and you'll have an answer mostly rooted in "if you dilute the thing why would you expect me to be grateful about it?" if that's the case il be leaving because i have to, not because i wanted to.

Edited November 17, 2021 by RBtry

WoW is the best example here because they are copying WoW's system and we see what happens to a game when it decides to treat casuals like 3rd class citizens.

 

Shadowlands is the epitome of raidlogger xpac, all casual solo content gives absolutely trash rewards, right now the best a solo player can achieve is 233 after a ridiculous amount of grind, meanwhile the max ilvl in the game is 259.

It is far more efficient to farm gold or buy tokens with IRL money in order to buy boosts to get gear that are 236 and can be upgraded to 246 quickly, and not even talking about the fact you can buy mythic loot as well by buying mythic raid kills and loot funnels.

 

Here is what many devs and hardcores repeatedly fail to understand, they believe casuals dont care about power and only care about being a space barbie and mounts, they tried that in wow shadolands with anima, the casual reward system, casuals left shadolwands in drove because they literally gutted all forms of power rewards from casual content because raidloggers complained.

 

WoW isnt that big of an mmorpg these days anyway, FF14 is taking over that title and the only reason WoW is still around is because of these reasons

-Budget to make semi frequent content

-Addicts and high end raiders whose ego depends on mythic raiding so they cant ever stop playing WoW

-A huge amount of old rewards that are unavailable aka people have invested far too much of their life in WoW to ever leave.

 

Meanwhile swtor has a tiny budget yet still has managed to keep a solid fanbase simply because people enjoy the game while if you ever go to the wow forums you will see that the majority is extremely negative yet still play the game because they are addicted and their entire self worth depends on ingame achievements, so they can never leave no matter how much they hate the game.

 

Swtor lacks budget, people are playing it because they are enjoying it and if they start not enjoying it because casual gear rewards got gutted, I dont think they have enough addicts or people invested in years of rewards to save them.