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Ability pruning will lead to subscribers pruning

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Ability pruning will lead to subscribers pruning

Gothreg's Avatar


Gothreg
08.29.2021 , 01:40 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Yup.

And it's the same people making the same posts.

And they then ignore the people who come forward to disagree
Where the hell is my thumbs up function....
Lord Vader, grant me the strength to destroy the things I cannot change,
the raw power to change the things I can,
and the blind rage not to care about the difference.

kiramon's Avatar


kiramon
08.30.2021 , 08:01 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Elssha View Post
Strange... seeing as a screenshot of my PLD from ShB has over 30 in-combat moves, NOT counting stim/adrenal/med pack equivalents OR out-of-combat things like mounts, quick travel, or even the rocket-boost equivalent, which IIRC is usable in combat (it's been a while).

I also remember people discussing how much more fun they had on AST before the cards were dumbed down to 2 variations with different names instead of a bunch of cards... and I only played the game casually.
To be fair, AST complaints weren't that they dumbed the system down (though it was definitely more fun before); they changed it from offering utility to offering RDPS 2/4% or MDPS 2/4% damage (instead of Mana Regen, or TP Regen (Gone), or Damage etc and then being able to Double Duration/Potency/AoE it); it was a lot more than just 'cutting it down' - it changed the complete ability purpose. It's not pruning, it was a complete change of a core part of the job for people.

CannotDeny's Avatar


CannotDeny
10.11.2021 , 05:13 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
and who said that big quantity of abilities is a content? No one did lol. But you see it's better to have many abilities than not to have because every player will decide himself what he needs and what he doesn't need. There was a great example when someone wrote about lightning chain ability on lightning sorcerer spec. Yes lightning chain doesn't fit in rotation of a lightning sorcerer but many players using it when playing story content just because they like to see how pure lightning chain is executed from their fingers, they feel themselves as Darth Sidious. Yes, this ability fits only madness rotation but useless for lightning SO WHAT? Let people decide what they want themselves since it is always better to have something even if it's useless than not to have when it comes to MMO. Why? Because those players who would think they don't need certain abilities will just throw them away from their bar but those who willing to use these abilities will take them. Both sides are happy. And if devs will do ability pruning, first group of players i mentioned before won't see any difference but the second group will suffer since they will be deprived of abilities they want to use!

Not even mentioning that devs are planning to take away substential, crucial abilities which are separating different classes making them unique (such as choice between reflect and mad dash or taking force clarity away). This is even worse than taking insignificant abilities of certain specs.
I am still flabberghasted how people have the gall to argue "Less is better"
It has never been the case in an MMO. I don't care how loaded they make the few abilities more, I actually enjoy learning the ins and outs of every individual skill and applying it when necessary.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
10.11.2021 , 08:30 PM | #74
As it is now, all classes have the same tools: melees all have leaps, some sort of reflective damage, a hard mitigation cooldown (except PTs maybe), a dotspread spec, a burst spec, etc. All classes have root breaks/immunities, and speed boosts. No doubt to make it easier for BW to balance, create cookie cutter talents, tacticals and set bonuses.

The engine cannot handle 16 players in a warzone using all of these speed boosts -- it is rare that anyone actually moves at 100% (or 115%) movement speed. There is always a speed boost active on someone, which feels really bad to play.

There is little point in rooting someone when everyone has multiple root breaks and escapes. It does not feel impactful to whittle away at 3 layers of defensive cooldowns, making fights drag on.

All classes (Except PT I think?) have some reactive hard mitigation cooldown added at some point, meaning you cannot swiftly punish poor positioning and players who don't properly use their defenses proactively. This lengthens TTK.

PvP at 1.x and 2.x felt a lot more impactful because classes had different identities and different tools. Reflect was a unique to the Guardian, who also had a multitude of leaps. Snipers were a low-mobility turret which could easily destroy and root vulnerable melee. No counterplay is bad, but too much counterplay is almost as bad.

Fact is, if all you do is add power and never regulate it, you *will* get power creep. The only alternative explanation is "there is never too much, and power creep is not real."
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

Dyne-'s Avatar


Dyne-
10.12.2021 , 12:38 AM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
As it is now, all classes have the same tools: melees all have leaps, some sort of reflective damage, a hard mitigation cooldown (except PTs maybe), a dotspread spec, a burst spec, etc. All classes have root breaks/immunities, and speed boosts. No doubt to make it easier for BW to balance, create cookie cutter talents, tacticals and set bonuses.

The engine cannot handle 16 players in a warzone using all of these speed boosts -- it is rare that anyone actually moves at 100% (or 115%) movement speed. There is always a speed boost active on someone, which feels really bad to play.

There is little point in rooting someone when everyone has multiple root breaks and escapes. It does not feel impactful to whittle away at 3 layers of defensive cooldowns, making fights drag on.

All classes (Except PT I think?) have some reactive hard mitigation cooldown added at some point, meaning you cannot swiftly punish poor positioning and players who don't properly use their defenses proactively. This lengthens TTK.

PvP at 1.x and 2.x felt a lot more impactful because classes had different identities and different tools. Reflect was a unique to the Guardian, who also had a multitude of leaps. Snipers were a low-mobility turret which could easily destroy and root vulnerable melee. No counterplay is bad, but too much counterplay is almost as bad.

Fact is, if all you do is add power and never regulate it, you *will* get power creep. The only alternative explanation is "there is never too much, and power creep is not real."
I agree that power creep can become a problem, but there are creative ways to address it that don't involve irreparably breaking classes in the process. Juggernaut and Marauder changes are some of the most uninspired (and damaging) i've seen in a game to date. I have no idea how those changes got past the design phase. More importantly, what's on the PTS is flat out less fun to play.

Bioware needs to address how they choose to balance before they decide on what to remove. Juggs that don't have escapes or damage mitigation, PTs that don't have movement speed or DCDs, and Marauders that are DCD and heal free are still going to be the number one focus targets.

Speed wars is definitely a problem. Not balancing ranged DPS, melee DPS , and stealth DPS based on time on target and CC in their kit is a much bigger one.

If Bioware wants to fundamentally change how the game plays they need to take the FF14 approach and just rework the entire thing. If they aren't going to do that then they might as well just stick to making operations and meaningful story content.

As the game sits right now players are just going to get destroyed by Operatives, Snipers, and Immortal Juggs. PvP on the PTS is an absolute sh*t show right now.

WaywardOne's Avatar


WaywardOne
10.12.2021 , 09:39 AM | #76
"Power creep" can be addressed without removing powers. Bear in mind, two of the hardest hit classes in all of this have gotten two powers each (force clarity and blade blitz) in the last seven+ years. BW can rewrite utilities without removing core abilities that have been in the game since day 1. A level 50 guardian or sentinel in 2012 had more buttons and more utility than level 80 guardians and sentinels on the PTS now. That's not addressing "power creep", that's removing basic functionality - from classes that are not now considered "too functional" by most endgame pvpers and raiders. BW still hasn't really explained why they're doing it or what they're hoping to accomplish. I've heard "too many buttons, not modern" and "we need to reset so balancing is easier and so we can add things to classes in the future" but neither of those really tracks with what they've done.

Samcuu's Avatar


Samcuu
10.13.2021 , 12:08 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
"NGE Announcement (November 2, 2005):

Letter to the Community

Greetings Star Wars Galaxies Players, Fans, and Other Denizens of the Galaxy:

My name is Julio Torres and I am the Producer on Star Wars Galaxies for LucasArts. We wanted you, the great members of the Galaxies community, to be the first to hear some exciting news about the current and future plans for Star Wars Galaxies!

Over the past year we have been working hard to respond to feedback we have gotten from players, fans, focus groups, and other research. This feedback has ultimately centered on one key area: the game does not feel like a heroic Star Wars experience. Currently, the early game has a steep learning curve and there is no clearly defined path of advancement or adventure. Many of our fans who bought the game did not see enough Star Wars style action early-on and ultimately left our world. It is our goal to change this and improve the experience for all players.

We are introducing a series of game enhancements to Star Wars Galaxies this month that include both significant enhancements to the live game as well as a completely redesigned experience for new players. The primary areas of focus include combat and profession and character development. The combat depicted in the Star Wars films, fiction, and canon that we have all come to know and love is fast-paced, action-packed, and visually intense. In order to stay true to the Star Wars fiction as well as to make the combat system more engaging, we have shifted the turn-based paradigm towards a much more engaging fast-action combat system where you control every move! After receiving feedback from members of the community, conducting extensive focus tests, and evaluating the combat systems of other games in the genre, we are confident this new fast-action combat truly delivers what players, fans, and gamers have come to expect from a Star Wars experience.

As mentioned earlier, combat is not the only area where we decided to focus our improvement efforts. We have also improved and brought more clarity to the profession and character development system..."
This brought back some terrible memories 😂😂😭😭

I can't comment on wow because I've never played, but in regards to your point about SWG the fact that they changed the combat system isn't exactly the reason the game died.

First off SWG was an incredibly complex mmo, and Jedi wasn't a starter class. It took months and months of grinding to unlock your force sensitive character slot (to be a jedi toon). When they talk about improved profession and character development they are talking about how they made Jedi a starting class. So you could imagine the betrayal felt by the players who'd been working since launch of the game for Jedi, or had already completed the insane grind, to then just hand out the class to new players immediately. There is a certain satisfaction you get from your hard work in an mmo and that was rendered useless by this move, it definitely alienated the hard-core player base.

As far as the combat upgrade goes, I hated it as someone who lived through it. Thats only because I was hard headed tho. I loved the game as it was, so I wasn't open minded to the changes. Those changes were much better and a lot closer to the combat you see in swtor today. If you go back and look at the combat in SWG pre cu, it's a **** show lol, the weakest aspect of that game by far.

I'm in agreement on your overall point tho. I do think fundamentally changing the way classes play is going to upset a lot of ppl. There's a skill gap in this game, and as a pvper you see it a lot. I feel a lot of the imbalanced aspects of the game are really down to learning to play the game properly. Bioware has created a lot of disparity in the classes as well by the set bonuses and tacticals they added. Pruning abilities isn't the answer. The answer for me would be for bioware to come up with actual content instead of just making every xpac about a gear grind or changing your rotation 😑😑 (and this is coming from someone who plays a class that greatly benefited from their laziness in 6.0)

I'm not going to be stubborn like I was with SWG tho, I'll give it a shot but if it's as bad as I think it is gonna be, yeah I'll be unsubbing as well.

Alssaran's Avatar


Alssaran
10.13.2021 , 01:11 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by CannotDeny View Post
I am still flabberghasted how people have the gall to argue "Less is better"
Yes, the gal for people to argue for what they enjoy. It's completely out there, really...
A single spark of hope can re-ignite the fires of freedom.

CannotDeny's Avatar


CannotDeny
10.13.2021 , 09:48 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Alssaran View Post
Yes, the gal for people to argue for what they enjoy. It's completely out there, really...
Take a step back for a moment and really mull over that sentence in your head. I want you to understand something that is fundamentally simple, yet crucial in this topic -
If people want less hotkeys, they can use less at their leisure and ignore abilities that are niche.
If people want to use everything, they can use everything.

Removing abilities completely removes one of these choices, whereas keeping it as is allows both options.

Chalres's Avatar


Chalres
10.28.2021 , 10:52 AM | #80
I agree with the original poster of this thread. I don't plan to sub to 7.0 in it's current iteration.