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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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However, the one position I'll never move away from is that using exactly the same writing for both genders is bad (or more accurately, lazy) writing. You will never convince me of that, I'm sorry.

 

Both genders? Huh? I must have missed that. I thought the talk was primarily about using the same writing for the same gender but differing sexual preferences.

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Both genders? Huh? I must have missed that. I thought the talk was primarily about using the same writing for the same gender but differing sexual preferences.

 

In the past, some of Bioware's romances have used exactly the same text for both genders, just with different pronouns. That's a big no no as far as I'm concerned.

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In the past, some of Bioware's romances have used exactly the same text for both genders, just with different pronouns. That's a big no no as far as I'm concerned.

 

Oh, you mean the companion responding to the hero with the same dialogue (bar pronouns)? Right, yes. I thought you meant 'different genders' in terms of writing backstory/dialogue for companions of differing genders.

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Oh, you mean the companion responding to the hero with the same dialogue (bar pronouns)? Right, yes. I thought you meant 'different genders' in terms of writing backstory/dialogue for companions of differing genders.

 

"Gender blindness". I wasn't aware it's an actual approach to writing. Few months prior to ME3 release there were some interesting discussions, some with BWs writers I believe. I'll try to find the links for it.

 

I'm ambivalent at best. I think it's nice to see differences beyond the pronouns. Though I remember this failed for me once. It was in DA2 ( Merrill's romance with male Hawke). She goes on a sort worship thing, Hawke being the new leader of the Dalish and blah ,blah. That was totally off putting for me, to the point I went back to a save far away enough to not trigger her romance and rethink my character. I could never romance Merrill with a male character because of this.

Edited by wainot-keel
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No, I mean all LI companions being open to all genders. They've said they won't do it. That's what all the 'that's not writing, that's not good storytelling' stuff was about at the Summit. They know which companions will be SGRA-capable and they're not saying which but they're NOT going to make all of them available to everyone. I mean, throw whatever interpretations on those words you like, as far as I understood it there's not going to be 'hero-sexual' companions. That was one of the only aspects of the whole SGRA issue that they answered directly in absolutes, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. The part about it not being good writing or good storytelling was only about not just changing the dialogue to work for the other gender. For example, if the companion said "you're the greatest man I've ever known", the SGR version wouldn't be "you're the greatest woman I've ever known". That's it. They didn't say anything about which companions would or wouldn't be available; they specifically said they weren't going to tell us.

 

Here's the video if you want to refresh your memory, starts at 21:02:

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I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. The part about it not being good writing or good storytelling was only about not just changing the dialogue to work for the other gender. For example, if the companion said "you're the greatest man I've ever known", the SGR version wouldn't be "you're the greatest woman I've ever known". That's it. They didn't say anything about which companions would or wouldn't be available; they specifically said they weren't going to tell us.

 

Here's the video if you want to refresh your memory, starts at 21:02:

 

You're right, I did misremember that. However,

, where they say they want to do it 'with the characters that make sense.'

 

I really don't see how you can interpret that as possibly meaning that all LIs could be for both genders. I very much doubt that there's any room in that at all for them turning around and saying, 'Oh, we had a think about it and we figured it'd make sense with all of the romanceable characters.' No, sorry. They have specific characters they want to give the SGRA treatment to and they're focusing on ones that, to them, 'make sense'.

 

Which ones? They haven't said, of course, and we won't know until it comes out, but the subtext there seems unmistakable to me.

 

My point stands: they're not going to make all LIs SGRA, and they've said as much (simply not as directly as I erroneously recalled).

 

Edit: Would I like to be wrong about this? Absolutely. I hope I am. My vote is in for them reworking all the LIs to work for both genders (beyond simple pronoun changes). But while I recognise this is my interpretation of the statements made at the Summit I believe my opinions to be based on pretty solid evidence and I really don't think I'm going to be proven wrong on this point.

 

We'll find out eventually, though. Here's hoping I'm wrong! <toasts with coffee>

Edited by Kioma
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I do also hope current romanceable companions could be available for both genders when SGR are implemented. That would be, as I see it at least, the fairest decision they could make considering the fact that we were not given that option since the begining, so all we could do was dreaming of hypothetical romances with our same gender existing companions, just as i do with my female SI and Ashara, hahah.

 

PS: excuse my english, I'm not a native speaker.

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However, the one position I'll never move away from is that using exactly the same writing for both genders is bad (or more accurately, lazy) writing. You will never convince me of that, I'm sorry.

 

In that case, I still think it depends on the character and their romance arc. I think it can work fine for some but not others.

 

It's not necessarily lazy writing, it might just be that the romance arc is gender neutral and doesn't warrant differences.

 

But if you can't be convinced then I'll give up XD

 

That would be, as I see it at least, the fairest decision they could make considering the fact that we were not given that option since the begining, so all we could do was dreaming of hypothetical romances with our same gender existing companions, just as i do with my female SI and Ashara, hahah.

 

If not, there's headcanon...I'll use it regardless b/c my headcanon romances are awesome and don't have that fade to black crap.

Edited by stuffystuffs
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When you say that the conversations MUST be different based on gender I'd like to ask for more specifics. For example, having Mako change her comments to call a female bounty hunter 'soft and feminine' instead of 'tough and manly' wouldn't necessarily work for my heavily tattooed and pierced amazon Rattataki. Just the fact of being able to customize your PC messes up most of the changes you might make.
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When you say that the conversations MUST be different based on gender I'd like to ask for more specifics. For example, having Mako change her comments to call a female bounty hunter 'soft and feminine' instead of 'tough and manly' wouldn't necessarily work for my heavily tattooed and pierced amazon Rattataki. Just the fact of being able to customize your PC messes up most of the changes you might make.

 

Well it also wouldn't work for my pint-sized but extremely violent Bounty Hunter either :p

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When you say that the conversations MUST be different based on gender I'd like to ask for more specifics. For example, having Mako change her comments to call a female bounty hunter 'soft and feminine' instead of 'tough and manly' wouldn't necessarily work for my heavily tattooed and pierced amazon Rattataki. Just the fact of being able to customize your PC messes up most of the changes you might make.

 

Ah, that's a good point and why I'm not particularly too crazy about "gendered" romance dialog as it will probably be based on stereotypes of what "man" and "woman" should be and how men should interact with women vs. interacting with other men, etc.

 

Generally, the less the dialog focuses on specific like these, IMO, the better as there will always be variations among different PCs. In the game now, the PC's species is one example of this...it's pretty much ignored b/c you typically have 4 different choices when creating a PC (more so with the legacy system).

 

I could make a chiss Jedi and I think her interactions with her potential romance partners would be different than with a human, but the game dialog won't reflect this (but I can headcanon things in).

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me too. pay to gay is NOT okay

 

I'm sorry, but that really made me choke on my drink out of laughter.

I do honestly agree though, SGR companions shouldn't be paid for. At least, not all of them.

So long as there's as many "pay to straight" as (got to quote you on this one!) "pay to gay" from the store who are not tied to class quests of future content, then that's fine.

Having either straight or SGR companions purchasable that have their own quest chain to get (once purchased), hopefully with some starting on the alternate starter world to our class (Tython for Trooper/Smug etc). The last part is only because I was disappointed when I started my JK character, and he went to Ord Mantell as part of his class quest.

Edited by Fyurii
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I'm sorry, but that really made me choke on my drink out of laughter.

I do honestly agree though, SGR companions shouldn't be paid for. At least, not all of them.

So long as there's as many "pay to straight" as (got to quote you on this one!) "pay to gay" from the store who are not tied to class quests of future content, then that's fine.

Having either straight or SGR companions purchasable that have their own quest chain to get (once purchased), hopefully with some starting on the alternate starter world to our class (Tython for Trooper/Smug etc). The last part is only because I was disappointed when I started my JK character, and he went to Ord Mantell as part of his class quest.

 

hehe sorry, i had to, it's such a catchy phrase >.>

and yes, all my money if they force me to unlock more snugglyluffs with my space husband harem >.>

 

please BW manslave gear, please bw manslave gear. vector wants to be pretty

 

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I really don't see how you can interpret that as possibly meaning that all LIs could be for both genders. I very much doubt that there's any room in that at all for them turning around and saying, 'Oh, we had a think about it and we figured it'd make sense with all of the romanceable characters.' No, sorry. They have specific characters they want to give the SGRA treatment to and they're focusing on ones that, to them, 'make sense'.
Oh, I didn't have any interpretation I was going for. I just like to make sure we're not spreading misinformation among ourselves here. No worries. :D

 

As for how this all ends up, I'm more than willing to just sit back and see what happens. I think it's safe to say that BioWare has already made their decisions on who gets the SGR upgrade - hopefully quite a while ago. :eek: But at the guild summit, Mr. Erickson did say they read the discussions on SGRs, so hopefully they took the community's desires into account. And the community here has always been overwhelmingly on the side of having existing companions for SGRs. I do think it would be interesting if some of the non-romanceable companions ended up as SGR-only, though that would only apply to male companions, since all female ones are currently romanceable.

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I do think it would be interesting if some of the non-romanceable companions ended up as SGR-only, though that would only apply to male companions, since all female ones are currently romanceable.

 

Unless Qyzen turns out to be female or something.

 

In all clear honesty I do think that some existing characters will be SGRA-capable, and I think that'll include some existing characters; I don't really have any speculations as to whom, particularly as I haven't met all of them yet, but considering the amount of work it'll take to put whole new companions in (which of course will have to happen eventually anyway) it seems logical to expand some of the existing companions to cut down on cost and development time. And also because we've become rather fond of them.

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Unless Qyzen turns out to be female or something.

:eek::confused::(

In all clear honesty I do think that some existing characters will be SGRA-capable, and I think that'll include some existing characters; I don't really have any speculations as to whom, particularly as I haven't met all of them yet, but considering the amount of work it'll take to put whole new companions in (which of course will have to happen eventually anyway) it seems logical to expand some of the existing companions to cut down on cost and development time. And also because we've become rather fond of them.

Yeah, those last two points are a lot of why I'm mostly sure it's going to happen with existing companions. BioWare knows we love the stuff they've done, so giving us more of that seems like a good idea. :D And hey, at the guild summit, people were calling out the names of current companions!

 

...yes, I know those names were 4X and Blizz. So? :o

I seriously doubt they will just give this to F2P players. It seems more a buy a companion pack; with benefits for both OGRA and SGRA. Either way, it's going to cost a sub or "cartel coins."

There are several reasons to doubt it would happen that way.

 

First, BioWare knows same-sex relationships are the kind of thing their fans have come to expect in their games. See the quote in my sig and the interview it links to. Therefore, it makes sense that they'd want to make sure SGRs were available to all their players, not just ones who want to buy them.

 

Second, both BioWare and EA are gay-friendly companies, and I'm certain they're aware of the poodoo-storm that "pay for gay" would lead to. Can you imagine the bad press that would bring about? A company noted for equality and support of same-sex relationships suddenly says that hetero relationships are free but homosexual ones cost money? They'd be hounded by rights groups and the like before the press release had been out five minutes. No company wants that kind of bad press.

 

Third, consider the different kinds of content listed as being subscription-only and all that. Story content is available to everyone. Companions and all that go with them are story content; there's really nowhere else they fit. So saying SGRs will be included in story content, and therefore free for everyone, is a reasonably safe assumption.

Edited by MusedMoose
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Yeah, that moment was lost on me both because I've never met either companion and because XXXX is a brand of beer.

4X is a droid, and Blizz is a jawa. That might be all the explanation you need. :D

 

Personally, I want to see relationships written for both of them, SGR and OGR. Because it would be utterly hilarious. I just want to see a fade-to-black end with the PC saying, "So that's what 'utinni' means."

 

...I really need to get some sleep. :o

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4X is a droid, and Blizz is a jawa. That might be all the explanation you need. :D

 

Oh certainly, I knew roughly who they were, but still. A droid named after beer and... Well, Jawa just don't do it for me, I'm afraid. I'm a bit boring like that, I guess. :p

 

Personally, I want to see relationships written for both of them, SGR and OGR. Because it would be utterly hilarious. I just want to see a fade-to-black end with the PC saying, "So that's what 'utinni' means."

 

...I really need to get some sleep. :o

 

HA! 'How does THAT fit under that little robe?'

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In that case, I still think it depends on the character and their romance arc. I think it can work fine for some but not others.

 

It's not necessarily lazy writing, it might just be that the romance arc is gender neutral and doesn't warrant differences.

 

But if you can't be convinced then I'll give up XD

 

I admit I was being somewhat narrow minded. :) I have taken a step back and realised that what I said was pretty stupid. (Sometimes it pays to do this thing called thinking before you write, Zandilar!)

 

I guess, in the end, SWTOR (and games like it, for example Mass Effect, as opposed to World of Warcraft) is a work of interactive fiction. While we can to a certain degree customise our characters, in the end my Female Jedi Knight is just THE Female Jedi Knight, with a different coat of paint, and maybe a different moral path. So that allows the same lines to be used for every single female JK travelling down the same moral path.

 

It is a limited medium, after all - and despite what I said, characters have to be written such that they fit within those limitations (primarily of space, because each line takes up space, and the more lines the more space is needed). So they are limited in exactly what they can put into the game.

 

The trick is making those lines work seamlessly, so that you don't notice that they're just the same line with a different pronoun - which is difficult, and when it fails, it can look like pretty bad (or worse, lazy) writing. (And there's no reason why they can't switch each line up anyway, since they're going to voice it twice anyway.)

 

Does that work better? :)

 

If not, there's headcanon...I'll use it regardless b/c my headcanon romances are awesome and don't have that fade to black crap.

 

Head canon is fantastic. I especially love looking in on other people's head canons and seeing what they've come up with, and how they've differed from mine (there's some amazing fan fiction out there! Just not for this game, for some reason or other. :().

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Head canon is fantastic. I especially love looking in on other people's head canons and seeing what they've come up with, and how they've differed from mine (there's some amazing fan fiction out there! Just not for this game, for some reason or other. :().

 

Damn :/ You may not want to visit the Fiction board anytime soon, then. There's a lot of head cannon there that people are pretty proud of.

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