Because of this.

Like I said, if there wasn't a Shadow fix coming in 2.3 or sooner, I was gonna quit the game. Since there's nothing in there about class fixes, I'm sad to say that I'm following through on it. The game just stopped being fun when I could be RNG gibbed because of bad content design and only got worse when the developers refused to do anything about it, much less do anything to admit that it might be a problem.

The community here was awesome. I loved the math, the camaraderie, and the discussions, but, at the end of the day, I played the game because it was fun. For those of you sticking it out, I applaud you and hope that, eventually, the devs decide that they actually need to balance PvE and respond to the PvE community rather than ignoring it. Maybe you guys will see me around somewhere else.

If something changes, I might come back, but, honestly, I doubt it. We did almost every conceivable thing that *could* have been done to elicit change, and it fell on deaf ears.

I'm sad to go, but, honestly, it just stopped being fun.

No no no no no Kitru, you can't go. What are we going to do for excellent tank advice on the forums? I grant you the developers are idiots, and I grant that you have a right to be pissed off, but at the same time, think about how far the game has actually come since release, and realize that, for the most part, even the terrible balance in SWTOR isn't near as bad as the balance in other big name MMO's like Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning...

SWTOR has flaws, and some of them are doozies (shadow **** up, some of the animation changes, lolsmash) but there are good bits as well

Anyway...

If you are leaving, can we at least hope to still see you around the forums?

If you are leaving, can we at least hope to still see you around the forums?

I've got 24 days left on my sub, so, you might see me bouncing around til then. I'm not going to be going to a different MMO either. TOR was the best one I ever played, and I doubt I'll ever find one that quite matches up: the community was the best, the game and the fights were fun, the lore and story were interesting. It was everything I wanted. Until the devs screwed it up with their inactivity and lack of communication.

If you want to find me, I've been getting more and more active with PnP gaming over on roll20.net. I can pretty much guarantee you'll find me over there (same account name too), since, if I'm no longer taken for raiding/dailies, it'll free up time for me to run more games. If people are interested, I'd to set up some kind of TOR-refugee weekly PnP game. The community here is *amazing*, and it's pretty much the only reason I stuck with it til now.

What's broken with the Shadow ? I'm not following every discussion, and my Shadow is only level 14 or so ...

Spikiness was bad enough and the spike hits were big enough that it was entirely possible for a Shadow to get insta-gibbed based on RNG. The only way you can avoid it is by stacking the living hell out of Endurance (thereby making you take more damage than a Guardian or VG while still being spikier, so what's the point if you're worse than the other tanks in *both* categories?). It doesn't help that they buffed the living bejeesus out of Guardians so there isn't even a compelling reason to bring anything except a Guardian and the developers haven't done anything to fix *that* imbalance.

Basically, pre-2.0 tank balance was disgustingly amazing. The only thing that needed to be fixed was Guardian threat and, when they changed things for 2.0, they completely screwed it all up. *Completely* screwed it all up. It's been 3 months, and they've absolutely nothing about it.

To paraphrase: ...and a great disturbance was felt in the force. As if a million voices cried out in unison, "don't go".

:[

I can only speculate that given the pvp guy is the class balance guy (I think right?)

Afaik, there's a separate PvP team. From the way Damion Schubert described it, there's 3 distinct teams that each have a different development schedule: a PvP team, an art team, and a PvE team. I've got no clue where Peckenpaugh lands in there, but, from what he's said, he's the only class balance guy, so I'm not sure whether he's part of those teams or on his own. I would be *really* upset if he were part of the PvP team because that would mean they think that class balance only matters as far as PvP is concerned.

I've watched the PTS notes since about 1.6 and they rarely (never?) put everything in the first build, so maybe you're being a bit premature? On the other hand I have zero faith in Peckenpaugh, so yeah. Shame they couldn't have been bothered to reply with a "ok, we're looking at it" when solid proof was waved under their noses.

FWIW, I've enjoyed reading your analyses (along with KBN and dipstik) A big loss for the community IMO. Good luck in your future endeavors.

This is truely a sad day for sw:tor. It makes me sad seeing the names I've seen arond since launch are now leaving. Despite him beeing a notorious diehard troller, biowareftw had a lot of good points about this game and its class balance in regards to pvp.

I've been in 4 guilds since I started this game, and all of them I've left because they died out. I really dont understand why people are still defending bioware left and right, when you can clearly see people are leaving. Im not sure I'll go as far as others and call it a mass exodus, but there is definetely something bad happening with this game.

I really hope you change your mind Kitru, this community needs members such as you.

I would be *really* upset if he were part of the PvP team because that would mean they think that class balance only matters as far as PvP is concerned.

I wouldn't say that. Because of their spiky nature (and other reasons - all mechanics that compensate their lack of DR is more or less screwed by a way or an other), they're also not wanted to participate fights in PvP.

The spec is screwed as whole, PvE and PvP, in PvP they are wanted to only wait for incoming ennemies and disabling them without fighting thanks to a mind trap, and they're preferred to do this over other stealthers because of a "just in case situation", where that if they're revealed and a burst lands on them, even if they're spiky, they would still have better chances to survive than any other stealther and land one more or two more hits.

But when it comes to actually fighting, they're not wanted. People want a guard from Guardian, or a VG, not from a Shadow.

So even if Peckenpaugh works as a part of PvP team, that's not that he's only concerned by PvP when balancing, but that he screwed, totally.

I'll miss you, any community is blessed to have you!

I fully understand your descision and might even go the same way. Playing way too many classes myself, but my Assassin and Shadow have always been my 'mains' tank-wise, I miss playing them, but when I do play and I get unlucky I'm left quite sad and hated. ^^

Well that kinda sucks, when I'm lurking the tanking forums I always see you in their so it will be a loss.

I've got tanks of every class so I'm not as affected but yeah the sin feels broken when I'm playing mine.

May the force be with you, always

Going to miss you. Hope you reconsider. I played and raided with an awfully gimped character for nearly 2 years in WoW, joining each petition and complaint thread there was, but I loved it so much I couldn't quit. Boom, another major balance overhaul, we finally got what we needed.

It's not like Shadows are unviable - it's specific NM encounters that are not reliably tankable by Shadows. I think you're a little spoilt in this regard. In my previous games (EQ, WoW, LAII) not all tanks were viable for everything. Granted, it's unpleasant getting the short end of the viability stick. But hey, we can't have everything all the time, right? Not always we get to main tank everything.

Damn. I totally understand tho, as I've quit an MMO before that nerfed my preferred class to hell.

Thank you for all the help you've given me directly and indirectly.

It will be sad to see you go, and I understand. To have your class's tanking effectiveness reduced, after having become acclimated and accustomed to overwhelmingly being the superior option since launch day in nearly every measurable facet, has to have been pretty tough.

You'll be missed.

Damn.

This is unfortunate. I hope you find reasons to get back (or not leave at all) soon. Good luck in any case

It will be sad to see you go, and I understand. To have your class's tanking effectiveness reduced, after having become acclimated and accustomed to overwhelmingly being the superior option since launch day in nearly every measurable facet, has to have been pretty tough.

 

You'll be missed.

I see what you did there.

I don't play Shadow, and hardly play my assassin, but I -always- looked up to you, as part of the community, and as a Shadow. Why not reroll a Guardian? It's not the same, but it's still fun. I really don't want another respected community member, someone as knowledgeable and cunning as yourself to leave the game. If you choose to not stay, then I wish you best of luck wherever you go.

A good question. Why not follow in the footsteps of all the powertechs and juggernauts who, pre 2.0, looked with jealously upon the overwhelmingly superior tools the assassin tank possessed and chose to reroll so they wouldn't be second class citizens?

You've contributed a lot and it would be tough to see you go when, inevitably, there will be a rebalancing at some point to address your concerns.

A good question. Why not follow in the footsteps of all the powertechs and juggernauts who, pre 2.0, looked with jealously upon the overwhelmingly superior tools the assassin tank possessed and chose to reroll so they wouldn't be second class citizens?

Unless you can mathematically demonstrate that shadows were ubiquitously superior options pre-2.0, I suggest you hold off on your thinly veiled accusations. Shadows *were* overpowered pre-1.3, but the nerf brought them precisely in line with the other tanks module skill ceilings. They were not ubiquitously the best option, it's just that many guilds preferred to take them both for composition and mean mitigation reasons. The other two tanks had their strengths and weaknesses as well.

Even if it were true that shadows were over-powered pre-2.0, they are most definitely in a bad place right now relative to the other tanks. You can't simply justify poor balance in the present by pointing to poor balance in the past. Shadows are glaringly imbalanced right now. We have demonstrated this in numerous, irrefutable ways. It's a problem which is causing significant, practical raid issues for many groups. It should be fixed, and it should be fixed as a high priority. The fact that it's not is why Kitru is leaving.

I'm definitely sorry to see him go, but frankly I understand his frustration. A little developer acknowledgment of all the hard work we as a community have done *proving* these flaws would go a long way to reassuring us. Instead, we get silence, and we are no longer willing to give bioware the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're simply hard at work on a fix. I don't personally believe that bioware was aware of these flaws at all before we brought them forward, and I'm not convinced that they attach sufficient credence to the work that we have done. Their silence only reinforces our already-justified fears.

Unless you can mathematically demonstrate that shadows were ubiquitously superior options pre-2.0, I suggest you hold off on your thinly veiled accusations. Shadows *were* overpowered pre-1.3, but the nerf brought them precisely in line with the other tanks module skill ceilings. They were not ubiquitously the best option, it's just that many guilds preferred to take them both for composition and mean mitigation reasons. The other two tanks had their strengths and weaknesses as well.

 

Even if it were true that shadows were over-powered pre-2.0, they are most definitely in a bad place right now relative to the other tanks. You can't simply justify poor balance in the present by pointing to poor balance in the past. Shadows are glaringly imbalanced right now. We have demonstrated this in numerous, irrefutable ways. It's a problem which is causing significant, practical raid issues for many groups. It should be fixed, and it should be fixed as a high priority. The fact that it's not is why Kitru is leaving.

 

I'm definitely sorry to see him go, but frankly I understand his frustration. A little developer acknowledgment of all the hard work we as a community have done *proving* these flaws would go a long way to reassuring us. Instead, we get silence, and we are no longer willing to give bioware the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're simply hard at work on a fix. I don't personally believe that bioware was aware of these flaws at all before we brought them forward, and I'm not convinced that they attach sufficient credence to the work that we have done. Their silence only reinforces our already-justified fears.

I totally understand, and I'm very sorry if my comments were misconstrued. As opposed to any tank balancing or functionality issues we've experienced before, what's happening right now with assassins basically renders them completely useless. I also see no reasonable course of action other than unsubbing. No class has ever had to deal with the calamities currently faced by assassins/shadows.

Let's keep the focus on Kitru and how much of a loss this will be for the community. I sincerely hope he reconsiders. And if posts dripping with sarcasm might prompt him to do so, so be it. I will carry that cross.

**okay, enough facetiousness: assassin/shadows have a severe problem with spike/RNG damage. Various tanking classes have had their own serious problems on prior occasions. I can remember WAY back in the early days when Powertechs would complain that bosses like Foreman Crusher were impossible given their lack of cooldowns. I can remember the entire upper half of the Juggernaut tanking tree being worse than the lower half of a dps tree. Lots of folks quit over that stuff, too, but the wheel comes around eventually.

Why not reroll a Guardian?

I've got a Guardian at 55. I've got a VG there, too. I kept playing TOR because my *Shadow* was fun and haven't actually touched my Shadow in about a month because it's not fun to play thanks to the random *splat* aspects, especially compared to the other tanks.

To those that think I'm quitting because Shadows are no longer the "best" option, I encourage you to remember that none of the other tanks were liable to just fall over and die for no good reason at any point pre-2.0. Pre-2.0, the tanks were exceptionally well balanced, barring Guardian threat. I played *all* of my tanks at all levels of content then and never *once* was there any consternation concerning the class I was playing at the time, and never once did I feel any major advantage to being a Shadow tank that made me want to avoid playing the other tank class completely. It was stronger but required more observation and had it's well known weaknesses (looking at you Kephess the Undying). Tank balance was *beautifully* done. Anyone that thinks that Guardians or VGs lived under some grand umbrella of sub-par tanking are deluding themselves because I don't know of a single case, pre-2.0, where a tank was refused admittance based upon their class rather than gear, fight knowledge, or player skill. I played and interacted with a crapton of people pre-1.7 and, while a lot of Guardians were disheartened by their terrible threat and how hard it made the first 15 seconds of any fight, I didn't meet a single one that felt like their effectiveness as a tank was ever in question.

Right now, there's a damned compelling reason for my to stop playing my Shadow: there are fights where I'll randomly die, no matter what I do. Randomly dying isn't fun, and the fact that the developers have not only refused to comment on anything but have actually made it *worse* (Huge Grenade change) doesn't instill much faith in me that it *will* be fixed. On top of that, there's not a single particularly compelling reason to *not* bring Guardians, and it's not like the class is hard to play either. Hell, it's *easier* to play than a VG is now.

Pre-2.0, there was a reasonably compelling reason to bring a Shadow rather than the other 2 tanks, but the strength of that reasoning was weaker than any reasoning that impacted the player behind the character. Yes, Shadows had a slight numerical advantage but it wasn't so dire as to not bring the other tanks. No one could ever provide a compelling reason not to bring someone of a tank other than Shadow (and, if they could, they were deluding themselves because someone that didn't know how to Shadow would be a massively weak link rather than an advantage).

The current state isn't balanced, and it's not the same as what Guardians experienced pre-2.0. Guardians are brokenly overpowered at the moment (faceroll easy to play, de facto best in every category that actually impact survivability now, since it's apparent that mean mitigation doesn't mean anything), and Shadows are massive liabilities in multiple fights. Playing a Shadow when you're liable to die for no reason isn't fun. It's even less fun when you've got the Guardians on the forums with no idea what they're talking about spouting off flawed comparisons and acting like they have *any* grasp of the utter *aggravation* and impotence that Shadows feel on those fights just because they had some threat issues 4 months back.

The reason I'm leaving is because the developers either have their heads up their asses or are completely oblivious, neither of which are conditions I'm willing to play a game with. It used to be that I was reasonably confident that the developers knew what was going on and were at least doing something about it. I've lost my faith in the developers and, without that faith, I don't see the point in doing the math or providing ideas if they're just going to fall on deaf ears, especially when said ears actually asked for help developing the tools needed. I personally lead the charge to get all of this stuff done. and it felt *amazing* to do it. And now it's a complete let down because the developers apparently don't care at all. They don't even care enough to *say* anything about the issue beyond the arbitrary lip service at M&Gs. Hell, when I was talking to Jesse Sky, he had no clue what I was talking about half the time because I was referring to math-y things that went completely over his head apparently.

I lost my faith because I met the devs, and they were terrible. I lost my faith because I gave the devs the tools they ask for and they did nothing with them. I lost my faith because I *waited* and *trusted* and nothing was done about it, time and time again.

I've played a lot of games and never once have I been in a community so vibrant and amazing yet given so little credence by the developers. It's even worse because they'll give credence to *absolutely everyone else* but the class forums, which, through their own *admission*, they know to be well behaved. They don't pay attention and they don't even care. They're no only ignorant but willfully so.

I can take a lot. I'll do my *damnedest* to explain things to people so that they can understand them and make sure *everyone* knows as much as they can. What I can't take is the people that are supposed to be *adjudicating* this stuff refusing to pay the least bit of attention to people that are pretty much *guaranteed* to know more about their own game then they do.

I could've taken more, but it's the behavior of Amber Green, Eric Musco, Courtney Woods, Jesse Sky, and Austin Peckenpaugh that are causing me to quit. The design team has demonstrated that they're pretty much incapable of designing a balanced game. The community team has demonstrated that they truly don't give a ****.

*That* is why I'm quitting. The developers themselves, not because Shadows aren't the best tanks. The stuff with Shadow tanks just proved it to me, beyond a Shadow of a doubt.