And buying Cartel Crates with Cartel Coins purchased from BW's site isn't real money transfer? Your miserable 500 CCs you get for a sub per month isn't going to count either. You'll have to spend your money to purchase cartel coins required for the amount of crates they demand.

 

You (speaking figuratively) use your credit card or whatever payment service. Purchase 5400 CCs for $42 (tax included). Then you buy max number of crates for 5400 CCs. You then give said raid member said 30+ crates to be taken into the NiM ops for the gear.

 

That is the definition and example of a RMT transaction. Everyone should read ToS/EULA concerning this action. This is also what is called Pay To Win as it directly affects the player's ability to play the game granting them the highest level of gear for the cost of the crates purchased with real money. There is no disputing this.

 

As I said, Blade & Soul turned a blind eye (as one stated above) it filled their coffers so they didn't care. In B & S case, it is purchasing gold to give directly to the raid members. Depending on the raid costs could be low as 300 gold to as high as 5000.

 

Though I love the amazing story, setting, and game play of B & S I will never play it again because Team Blood refused to put a stop to it. Should BioWare do the same thing here, I will do the same thing. And those who just shrug saying, 'well that's okay for me if they want to do that,' are enabling this act turning a blind eye to it with nothing more than a shrug. Ambivalence and Apathy allows this to happen without a doubt.

I should be banned for giving someone an OEM for helping me complete a heroic, got it

I've been leading my sales group for two years. We have never accepted RMT or anything other than the credits players obtain in game for our runs. Therefore there is no plausible reason to ban my group. Handing me credits for a sale is exactly the same as the guy on fleet offering up 1mil to help him start a guild. I have no control over how buyers obtain their credits, and if it is by illegal means then that is their problem, not mine. If bioware chooses to enforce it, the buyer buying the credits will be the one having action taken against them.

This is basically my thoughts on the matter. The issue people have with sales runs is mainly the achievement hunters, which I get that as it isn't super upright in the spirit of the competition, and people who THINK sales runs have anything to do with credit inflation in the game. In reality sales runs are just how high end raiders make their money for augments/crafting mats, and some nice cosmetics off the gtn. It is the same level as players who grind crafting mats all day to make their credit streams.

This is basically my thoughts on the matter. The issue people have with sales runs is mainly the achievement hunters, which I get that as it isn't super upright in the spirit of the competition, and people who THINK sales runs have anything to do with credit inflation in the game. In reality sales runs are just how high end raiders make their money for augments/crafting mats, and some nice cosmetics off the gtn. It is the same level as players who grind crafting mats all day to make their credit streams.

Personally I don't see achievements as a competition. For me I use them as a personal goal. When I reach a certain number, I make a new goal to get to a different number.

And buying Cartel Crates with Cartel Coins purchased from BW's site isn't real money transfer? Your miserable 500 CCs you get for a sub per month isn't going to count either. You'll have to spend your money to purchase cartel coins required for the amount of crates they demand.

 

You (speaking figuratively) use your credit card or whatever payment service. Purchase 5400 CCs for $42 (tax included). Then you buy max number of crates for 5400 CCs. You then give said raid member said 30+ crates to be taken into the NiM ops for the gear.

 

That is the definition and example of a RMT transaction. Everyone should read ToS/EULA concerning this action. This is also what is called Pay To Win as it directly affects the player's ability to play the game granting them the highest level of gear for the cost of the crates purchased with real money. There is no disputing this.

 

As I said, Blade & Soul turned a blind eye (as one stated above) it filled their coffers so they didn't care. In B & S case, it is purchasing gold to give directly to the raid members. Depending on the raid costs could be low as 300 gold to as high as 5000.

 

Though I love the amazing story, setting, and game play of B & S I will never play it again because Team Blood refused to put a stop to it. Should BioWare do the same thing here, I will do the same thing. And those who just shrug saying, 'well that's okay for me if they want to do that,' are enabling this act turning a blind eye to it with nothing more than a shrug. Ambivalence and Apathy allows this to happen without a doubt.

RMT as prohibited by every game that prohibits it is specifically about players giving Real Money to other players for in-game activity.

Any other claim of definition is irrelevant.

You as absolutely allowed to give all your Real Money to the game company and do whatever with the pixels you've bought. As long as no Real Money ends up with another player due to in-game activities it is not an issue.

Are you really of the belief that Biowares own ToS prohibits people giving Bioware money and then doing what they like with the pixels they bought?

Why not just make the items saleable on the GTN. That would give some raiders a reason to keep running the content (to get rich) and would open up the items to a larger number of players. Clearly, they are not considered a reward for completing the hardest content if people are willing to "give" them away for credits. With an increase in supply from being able to sell them directly, the prices would come down (though they would still be out of range of the average player).

it would just lead to players selling the items directly to players instead of using the GTN. The GTN limit is 1 billion credits and the people I talked to charge 10-20 billion per item.

it would just lead to players selling the items directly to players instead of using the GTN. The GTN limit is 1 billion credits and the people I talked to charge 10-20 billion per item.

Actually, that is a pretty simple fix. Raise the GTN max to 20 billion and limit off GTN player to player transactions to 5 billion value per day (based on current average GTN price for whatever item is traded). That forces the activity back onto the GTN, where the credit sinks in the game can work to get the economy under control (at least in theory) and transactions are easier for Bioware to monitor any suspicious transactions.

Actually, that is a pretty simple fix. Raise the GTN max to 20 billion and limit off GTN player to player transactions to 5 billion value per day (based on current average GTN price for whatever item is traded). That forces the activity back onto the GTN, where the credit sinks in the game can work to get the economy under control (at least in theory) and transactions are easier for Bioware to monitor any suspicious transactions.

I like both those suggestions but increase the GTN limit to 50 or 100 billion because we know how bad BW is about updates and we have no idea how long it will take them to develop and implement effective credits sinks.

5b trade max per day outside the GTN is a nice idea, force people to use the GTN more.

I think this is a round about way to criticize 7.0 gearing. According to Bioware and a subsection of players, BiS gear should be locked behind NiM raids because it is only "earned" by people who run that content. However, if people can get carried in gear runs, they are bypassing the whole "earning" part and are just buying the gear, turning the whole gearing system into a pay to win scenario. Selling gear runs encourages players to spend real money to buy credits, which encourages bot farmers to make credits to sell, which further tanks the economy.

It's not like that gear will be worth it. Cool cosmetic like the Crest? Sure. Some lame gear that'll be relevant for a year at best? No way.

Not only this as Damask_Rose states, it is involving real world money. Credits isn't the commodity of choice for this kind of raid and gear. They are demanding cartel crates. How many? Depends on the NiM op. Buying a raid ride is against the ToS/EULA. It involves RMT (Real Money Transactions) in that they are buying cartel crates and giving them to those charging for the "wait at the door" type carry.

You can buy packs on GTN. You can also buy packs, sell them on GTN and give credits to those who organize the run.

Oh, the second RL money is involved, you better believe EA will too.

They can just put the gear on Cartel Market and cut the middle man. /s

Not the fault of the seller if the buyer buys credits. As far as we know its all legitmate

While I don't participate in sales runs in any capacity (it does make a tiny group of players very wealthy quickly, which contributes to distorting the value of items on the GTN for everyone), this is a terrible argument.

If you see credits are being sold at about $5.50 for 1 billion in chat, and someone hands you 10 or 20 billion or whatever you are charging for a sales run, the idea that "I don't know where it came from, not my fault that someone has 10-20 billion to spend on 125 achievement points" is absurd.

The chances someone bought some or all those credits is high.

Just admit you don't care if they were illegally bought, and what credit sellers, which have been linked to extremely shady criminal organizations, do with the cash, or if the buyer's personal or financial information, even more valuable to those sellers, is compromised in the process.

You're, in effect, turning a blind eye to organized crime, potentially involved in human trafficking, prostitution, drugs, and the like, alongside the money laundering that goes with it.

All for personal convenience in... SWTOR? You really can't figure out a different way to make credits on your own or with a guild, in a game where it's so easy to amass many billions without sales runs?

I think this is a round about way to criticize 7.0 gearing. According to Bioware and a subsection of players, BiS gear should be locked behind NiM raids because it is only "earned" by people who run that content. However, if people can get carried in gear runs, they are bypassing the whole "earning" part and are just buying the gear, turning the whole gearing system into a pay to win scenario. Selling gear runs encourages players to spend real money to buy credits, which encourages bot farmers to make credits to sell, which further tanks the economy.

This is interesting, because I didn't get that out of the OP.

it's interesting because the two things are different.

Generally speaking, I've only ever heard of NIM raids being "sold" for in game credits for the Wings of the Architect mount. While I have the credits to buy this, I personally won't because I personally view that rare mount as a reward for completing the raid, which I can't do.

However, it's purely a status symbol, a cosmetic item with no bonus to stats of any kind.

This is why there is a lot of "meh....don't care" about it.

But, if you expand on the practice of buying progress via NIM raids to the new gearing system, as a way to get the top level stats (which as I understand it won't have any effect in PVP thanks to how they are supposed to work that stat balancing) then I can see how this could be annoying.

Even EA stopped selling items with stats via the cartel market.

They took the Tier 7 PVE space parts out of it.

No armor has high level stats.

They didn't want boosts to stats being available via real world money.

There's still no direct, in game swap of RL $ for the RAID carry.

People have CM items from any number of ways they've earned CC...it doesn't have to be via a credit card.

Ultimately, since they've stated they're going to periodically raise the ceiling on gear stats, I don't see it really being a huge problem.

But...still...not quite as cut and dry as I took from the OPs post.

Not only this as Damask_Rose states, it is involving real world money. Credits isn't the commodity of choice for this kind of raid and gear. They are demanding cartel crates. How many? Depends on the NiM op. Buying a raid ride is against the ToS/EULA. It involves RMT (Real Money Transactions) in that they are buying cartel crates and giving them to those charging for the "wait at the door" type carry.

 

It doesn't matter if there's just an achievement, mount, or highest level gear involved. It is wrong. However, as I've read through this tread, ambivalence and shoulder shrugging is apparent. It is for this very reason I quit playing Blade & Soul forever. Even when given proof of this to Team Blood they turned a blind eye to it. Square Enix on the other hand, will not tolerate RMTs of any type. In my book, it falls under cheating and gaming the system to get what one is too damned lazy to work for in the first place.

I think it does matter.

A cosmetic item, like a mount or armor skin or weapon shell...who cares? I would argue that even Bioware takes this stance as the majority of things available in the CM are cosmetic and offer no in-game stat boosts.

As I put in my previous post, for the highest level of armorings/mods/etc...things that do have stats...that's a tad bit different, but for the reasons mentioned in that post, I'm not sure it is as big of a deal as some people are trying to make it out to be.

and I just looked at that discord link.....jeez. 7 BILLION for a TC hardmode run? Did I read that right? The prices only went up from there.

even if I bothered to try to get that amount of credits...it wouldn't be worth it.

Nor will it be worth it JUST for gear after the expansion.

The only argument I can see holding any weight what so ever is that these types of runs COULD POSSIBLY encourage credit sales via 3rd party sites, and doing so, bringing in THAT many credits to active players (instead of the bot accounts used to gather the credits in the first place) is generally considered bad by most people.

Actually, that is a pretty simple fix. Raise the GTN max to 20 billion and limit off GTN player to player transactions to 5 billion value per day (based on current average GTN price for whatever item is traded). That forces the activity back onto the GTN, where the credit sinks in the game can work to get the economy under control (at least in theory) and transactions are easier for Bioware to monitor any suspicious transactions.

You can do all of that without increasing the GTN cap.

Personally I don't see achievements as a competition. For me I use them as a personal goal. When I reach a certain number, I make a new goal to get to a different number.

I was more referencing the leaderboard on the forums, which have had major discussions around sale runs and if they should invalidate one's position on said leaderboard.

Tbh if i was as bad at this game as people who can't clear 10 years old content and too poor to buy a run i would be mad too:jawa_smile:

That's nasty. Accurate, but nasty. I salute you!

Tbh if i was as bad at this game as people who can't clear 10 years old content and too poor to buy a run i would be mad too:jawa_smile:

There's a significant difference between SM DF and NiM DF. Furthermore, there's class balance (or lack thereof).

But yes, when you have people who can't clear Vet FPs, NiM (X) is going to beyond the scope of their capabilities.

While I don't participate in sales runs in any capacity (it does make a tiny group of players very wealthy quickly, which contributes to distorting the value of items on the GTN for everyone), this is a terrible argument.

 

If you see credits are being sold at about $5.50 for 1 billion in chat, and someone hands you 10 or 20 billion or whatever you are charging for a sales run, the idea that "I don't know where it came from, not my fault that someone has 10-20 billion to spend on 125 achievement points" is absurd.

 

The chances someone bought some or all those credits is high.

 

There's plenty of ways to earn a bunch of credits in this game without buying them from gold sellers. Not in the least getting some cartel market items and selling them off. Or buying items when the prices dip and selling them when they rise (in essence investing in items). You yourself go on to refer to this game as "a game where it's so easy to amass many billions without sales runs".

So who's the say that the probability that credits are bought is high? Do you know how many credits are actually brought in via gold selling? Because I have no earthly idea, and Bioware's obviously not releasing any figures on the matter.

 

Just admit you don't care if they were illegally bought, and what credit sellers, which have been linked to extremely shady criminal organizations, do with the cash, or if the buyer's personal or financial information, even more valuable to those sellers, is compromised in the process.

 

You're, in effect, turning a blind eye to organized crime, potentially involved in human trafficking, prostitution, drugs, and the like, alongside the money laundering that goes with it.

 

All for personal convenience in... SWTOR? You really can't figure out a different way to make credits on your own or with a guild, in a game where it's so easy to amass many billions without sales runs?

This would go equally for selling any expensive item to another player. Is selling a hypercrate also turning a blind eye to organized crime? Bollocks. I'm all for Bioware cracking down on gold sellers and I'm actively reporting any that I come across. But you can hardly blame people selling runs for doing so because they credits could have been bought.

While I don't participate in sales runs in any capacity (it does make a tiny group of players very wealthy quickly, which contributes to distorting the value of items on the GTN for everyone), this is a terrible argument.

 

If you see credits are being sold at about $5.50 for 1 billion in chat, and someone hands you 10 or 20 billion or whatever you are charging for a sales run, the idea that "I don't know where it came from, not my fault that someone has 10-20 billion to spend on 125 achievement points" is absurd.

 

The chances someone bought some or all those credits is high.

 

Just admit you don't care if they were illegally bought, and what credit sellers, which have been linked to extremely shady criminal organizations, do with the cash, or if the buyer's personal or financial information, even more valuable to those sellers, is compromised in the process.

 

You're, in effect, turning a blind eye to organized crime, potentially involved in human trafficking, prostitution, drugs, and the like, alongside the money laundering that goes with it.

 

All for personal convenience in... SWTOR? You really can't figure out a different way to make credits on your own or with a guild, in a game where it's so easy to amass many billions without sales runs?

You saying people can't get large sums of money without cheating is absurd. Over the course of the past 2 years I made over 200 Billion credits without the need to do anything illegal. Everyone has their ways. Hell, you could erp on fleet for a bil an hour and that would eventually get you to 10bil. Whether its too high or not, it's not an excuse for me to assume the worst of someone.

I recently conducted a survey within my sales discord for how buyers obtained credits. Almost all of them said conquest, or selling RPMS. There is a level of trust I need to have with my buyers, and I assume since I am honest with them, they are honest with me in return. It's part of doing good business.

I'm also well aware of how these illegal sites obtain their items. Yes, they are quite shady, not great people at all, in FFXIV as far as I know they hack credit cards to buy items off their game market. However, in swtor, the processes that bots have been using to farm credits for years hasn't had personal effects on players other than maybe enjoyment. I have videos and screenshots catching these bots in the act, the were promptly banned, with the exploit they used fixed.

On the topic of illegal credits once more. I want it explained to be WHAT EXACT PART of the Terms of Service I'm breaking by providing an in game service for credits. The closest thing to ToS being broken are the buyers buying credits, and the sellers selling credits. Both those parties can be banned for it. However, someone who only accepts those credits for a service can't be banned. If that were the case, the same people selling cartel market items on fleet for upwards of 10bil + would also face the same consequences. Being banned for selling something fully legitimately. Many players would be lost if developers chose to ban all players who ACCEPT credits. We all have moral standards, but also have no way of knowing where the credits came from.

The next thing, financial information being stolen. This is just a problem with less "trustworthy" websites in general. I consider this a mute point since it happens in many 3rd-party areas/vendors. That's a problem with the internet police, not swtor devs.

Next point, organized crime. I'm starting to realize I won this argument because somehow accepting credits means I'm in support of many terrible things that I will refrain from naming. I believe you have gone too far with this one here. By your logic, you consider these credit websites HYPOTHETICALLY stealing your info is on the same level as higher tier organized crime, crime that has hurt a great many people. I'm gonna put this out here, I play a game called Town of Salem online right, like that site gets hacked all the time and I'm pretty sure half my info is floating out in the dark web somewhere. I have yet to see the effects. I assume most victims of legitimate organized crimes would look at your claim against me, and would agree with my points that you don't understand the change in degree of organized crime and scummy websites. Like......seriously? I will also repeat my point, I will only assume someone is buying credits if they directly tell me, trust levels are a thing here. You assuming all my buyers are the scum of the earth is quite offensive to them.

The finale, you thinking I'm "resorting" to this method because I can't make credits normally. I spent only a 3rd of my time in swtor doing sales. I've always been rich without the need to buy credits. As it turns out, selling materials, buy low sell high, even farming missions is not hard in the slightest. Doing sales has my team doing what we are best at, high level raiding, if you have a problem with how we choose to spend our time in the game, you can always ignore us. The same way that I ignore many things I dislike.

My concern is those like you who are taking this much more seriously than it should be, that is how it's obvious the game has consumed you into believing that I, a college student playing a video game, is essentially involved in organized crime.

Live long and Prosper

There's plenty of ways to earn a bunch of credits in this game without buying them from gold sellers. Not in the least getting some cartel market items and selling them off. Or buying items when the prices dip and selling them when they rise (in essence investing in items). You yourself go on to refer to this game as "a game where it's so easy to amass many billions without sales runs".

 

So who's the say that the probability that credits are bought is high? Do you know how many credits are actually brought in via gold selling? Because I have no earthly idea, and Bioware's obviously not releasing any figures on the matter.

 

 

This would go equally for selling any expensive item to another player. Is selling a hypercrate also turning a blind eye to organized crime? Bollocks. I'm all for Bioware cracking down on gold sellers and I'm actively reporting any that I come across. But you can hardly blame people selling runs for doing so because they credits could have been bought.

Thank you kind supporter

How did we go from "please ban sale runs I don like dem" to "IF YOU SELL ANY IN GAME ITEM FOR CREDITS IN GAME YOU ARE SUPPORTING ORGANIZED CRIME"

Man... what a world

Let's be honest -- the player base is typically not all that great. When I started, most were capable of EV/KPHM level stuff. Now even that basic level of HM is so risky to pug its barely done now.

I've payed once to be run through TFB HM years ago when they did the focused operations and it dropped the ever so coveted 224 helmet. I paid after each boss maybe 30mil I can't remember, and a bit extra for the helmet. I still had to do the content and participate. And I was literally doing it just for the helmet since having to roll against 7 other people for one token isn't great odds.

I didn't buy cc to raise credits, it was all naturally earned through regular content.

You know why, because I don't like spending real money on digital goods.

As my sub is ending probably for the last time -- I was gonna buy wings but because inflation spiked the price, going through the trouble of finding a group that could do it and setting up a date just stopped feeling worthwhile.

Nim content tends to require prog teams. Most of the player base struggles with basic stuff, hence the need for 30s res. One shouldn't be surprised an individual player would hire out just to get something specific done.

I recently conducted a survey within my sales discord for how buyers obtained credits. Almost all of them said conquest, or selling RPMS.

Thank god for those pvpers, without whom organized crime would never occur.

...

lol i was hoping you'd see this thread 🍿🍿🍿